Table Notation Revised

J

JoeW

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Table Notation Revised based on the prior thread and comments by others.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=81566

My preference is to name this the AZB Table Notation System because it was created with input here. However, if there is a problem with that TNS is sufficient.

The table locations can be named with an X (horizontal) Y (vertical) plot as shown below.

The foot spot is located at X=2 Y = 6 or location 2,6.
There is a pocket at X=0,Y=0 or "Pocket 0,0"
The cue ball is currently located at "CB=1,1".
The red three ball "3B=2.3, 3.8"
The Blue Two Ball is located at "2B=.5, 7.6"

The cue ball to the right of the diagram can be used to locate tip position where?

C = Clock face

T = Tip off set (1 = max spin speed ratio or center of percussion as shown below by the outer boundary of the gray circle. Tip offset is relative to this boundary.)
0 = center ball.
.5= half the distance to the Center of Percussion.

P = Power to move the cue ball in decimal notation, where:
1 = power required to move the cue ball one table length
2 = power to move the cue ball two table lengths
1.5 = one and one half lengths of the table.

TableNamed3.jpg


To use this notational system highlight and copy it to the clip board. Print and post near your computer or place in a notepad file.
It is a jpeg file locate at

http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q...TableNamed3.jpg


Example:
Shoot the CB (loc=1,1) with C=12,T=.5, P=1.5 to pocket the 3B (2.3,3.8) in Pocket 4,8 and get position on the 2B (5,7.6). The CB should come to rest at 2,6 but I do not know why. Given this notation one can set up the shot exactly as described.

Without the diagram all that one has to remember is that the corner pocket to one's left as seen from the head of the table is location 0,0, then count and estimate. Positions are always given as X,Y or across the front (from left to right) and down the side (from top to bottom).

Comments?
 
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Yes I have seen Cuetable. The system described here is for written precise locations that one can duplicate on their table. CueTable often shows the general placement of the balls. This system allows for precise specifications of ball locations and cue tip placement when such a system is needed. This system could be used with cuetable to give exact locations. Perhaps Wei will incorporate. It is up to him.

A person on a prior threead asked if there was not a way to describe locations -- that is all. It has limited usefulness.

There were several comments on the first design and I said I would incorporate in a revised design and here it is.
 
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JoeW said:
Yes I have seen Cuetable. The system described here is for written precise locations that one can duplicate on their table. CueTable often shows the general placement of the balls. This system allows for precise specifications of ball locations and cue tip placement when such a system is needed. This system could be used with cuetable to give exact locations. Perhaps Wei will incorporate. It is up to him.

A person on a prior threead asked if there was not a way to describe locations -- that is all. It has limited usefulness.

There were several comments on the first design and I said I would incorporate in a revised design and here it is.
Click to expand...


Ok, I just don't understand how your graph and notation will be any better than something like this below. I mean, perhaps you haven't gone through cuetable enough? I think it's as specific as you can get in terms of diagramming.


SORRY, THIS IS AN EDIT! I meant to show the grid in my cuetable diagram. I guess that doesn't translate when posting but there is a grid.

CueTable Help

 
JoeW said:
... precise locations that one can duplicate ...
Click to expand...

It is only as precise as one can interpolate/estimate between diamonds. Without a marked table I'd say this is perhaps +- 0.2 diamonds in the middle of the table, perhaps +- 0.1 diamonds by the rails (where the diamonds are marked). Most 'set-shot' descriptions place balls on an intersection or on a 1/2 diamond spot for this very reason (estimating the mid-point is a lot easier on ones head than estimating 4/10ths or 37/100ths).

Dave
 
wow this is complicated O.o

Honestly if someone has to read a numerical value for how much power and stuff they need to hit the ball with then should just give up the game. I like cuetables current simplicity

edited to be a bit nicer.
 
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JoeW said:
Yes I have seen Cuetable. The system described here is for written precise locations that one can duplicate on their table. CueTable often shows the general placement of the balls. This system allows for precise specifications of ball locations and cue tip placement when such a system is needed. This system could be used with cuetable to give exact locations. Perhaps Wei will incorporate. It is up to him.

A person on a prior threead asked if there was not a way to describe locations -- that is all. It has limited usefulness.

There were several comments on the first design and I said I would incorporate in a revised design and here it is.
Click to expand...

I mean, I don't think you understand. Wei has spent YEARS on cuetable. It is perfectly to scale, replicable, graphable, printable. It's just about everything anybody has ever asked. Your "system" has already been coded into cuetable by the click of a button. I think you should explore it a bit more.
 
Is this turning into a war over nothing???

JoeW said he designed his system to incorporate specific values for ball locations, because that is currently not done in the WEI tables. If one has a situation where they'd like to specifically represent the location of the balls, then the system he presented is better suited for that. In most cases, the general placement of the balls is sufficient enough. In those cases WEI is a great tool.

If WEI decides to incorporate this specific value feature into its system, then we'll probably get the best of both worlds. Until then, this is an alternative, which can be used where applicable.

Can't we all just get along?
 
FLICKit said:
Is this turning into a war over nothing???

JoeW said he designed his system to incorporate specific values for ball locations, because that is currently not done in the WEI tables. If one has a situation where they'd like to specifically represent the location of the balls, then the system he presented is better suited for that. In most cases, the general placement of the balls is sufficient enough. In those cases WEI is a great tool.

If WEI decides to incorporate this specific value feature into its system, then we'll probably get the best of both worlds. Until then, this is an alternative, which can be used where applicable.

Can't we all just get along?
Click to expand...

Okay, please tell me how a numerical value is suddenly going to translate into table placement. I'm saying, Wei's tool is ALREADY that specific. You just don't know how to use it if you're trying to come up with something else.
 
The only value that I see is... if you want to know the distance between the center of two balls (WHY??... I don't know right now), the numerical coordinate system would allow the distance to be calculated (using Pythagorean's Theorem).

And cut angles could also be calculated as well (again, WHY?, I don't know)... oh well.
 
Some people out there are numbers oriented, and they like to be able to see the details. While others out there may not be so inclined...
cigardave said:
And cut angles could also be calculated as well (again, WHY?, I don't know)... oh well.
Click to expand...
Hmm... Speaking of... That could be an interesting feature to add to the WEI tables. If you draw an arrow from the cue ball to a target ball which gets knocked into a pocket, could display the cut angle (in degrees) for that shot. Of course, it would have to be an approximation... :)
 
FLICKit said:
Some people out there are numbers oriented, and they like to be able to see the details. While others out there may not be so inclined...

Hmm... Speaking of... That could be an interesting feature to add to the WEI tables. If you draw an arrow from the cue ball to a target ball which gets knocked into a pocket, could display the cut angle (in degrees) for that shot. Of course, it would have to be an approximation... :)
Click to expand...


You mean something like this?

http://cuetable.com/project/CueTableCutAngleCalIntro.html
 
Thanks for the comments. Obviously you find the system useless and that is fine. Don't use it.

I am sure that you take your laptop to the pool hall, the cafeteria and any place else you go in life. It is certainly a small matter to hook into any local wireless net for anyone in today's world. It only takes an hour or two and several atempts to learn Wei's system. Small price to pay.

Certainly one can capture the cuetable diagram at anytime, anyplace and print out the whole screen with nice color rendering. Of course some people have learned to crop the complete screen shot to only the table, reset the colors and have learned to use Paint quite effectively.

However, there may be some people out there who might like to remember a particular setup as they sat there in a bar league. Probably they should just print the blank cuetable diagram and take it with them.

The notational system was created when someone was attempting to find a way to accurately diagram their shots for later recall. This certainly is not the best or only solution. It is only one solution, for some people, some time.

As a matter of fact I have written a notebook that fits in one's shirt pocket for off-line use. One of the complaints was that it was not "easy" to diagram the shots accurately. Combine that with the prior need and this system was created.

Oh well, the world has problems and should be able to figure out a better solution. Certainly the cost of a laptop, wireless access, and color printers have come to the point where nearly anyone can afford them. Come to think of it you don't need a color printer if you carry your laptop with you

The system shown here was not intended to compete with Wei's system, it is for off- line use.

Perhaps you have a better solution for people with limited computer skills or lack of a laptop they are willing to take into a pool hall?

BTW have you noticed that trick shot artists carry around a three ring binder. Seems like a good idea to me. In fact I have notes on some shots that I rarely use. One of my projects is to make a notebook that I can take with me that shows three rail kicks based on diamonds and similar types of shots I seldom use.

Wouldn't it be nice if cuetable had a way to make and print one's own notebook that could be shown to and discussed with others? I wonder why that is not included?

Given the nature of pool players and their secrets I'll bet that some people do not want to store their secret systems on the net. Now how can one work with that proclivity?
 
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While I'm not sure that a standardized table layout notation is really necessary, I'll try to shed some light on what I think Joe W. is trying to do.

He's trying to construct a standardized framework (or grammar) for communicating table layouts. Cuetable diagrams are of course fantastic. However, they are simply a graphical representation of a real table. Underlying the cuetable diagrams is a numerical coordinate system of some sort...a coordinate system that is proprietary to Cuetable which is not currently publicly shared.

If you look at this from the perspective of, "there is only one tool to use to display table layouts" then it appears that Joe's system is redundant. However, if you consider that there may well be other tools, programs, or video games that may want to copy, save, test, print, compress, archive, import, or export layouts for a variety of reasons, you will see that a common underlying grammar for describing table layouts would be useful in at least some cases. It would simplify the communication of table layouts between disparate systems (again, I'm wondering if this is necessary). There isn't really a downside to it.

That said, Joe's description is no where near complete for this purpose, but its a decent start. Hope this helps explain his logic a bit though. :o
 
Thanks Franky. You have summarized the idea nicely. I think this may be the beginning of a standard (freely avaialable) notation system. Similar to chess notation. I agree that it is not a complete system and was intended to be easy to learn and use within the confines of what is needed to describe a shot.

I do think that what one notes down at the local bar can later be placed in Cuetable or any other system for those who are willing to share their musings.

The tip offset suggestion is from another poster who had good reasons for this type of format. I do not know how well it would be accepted but it is a "better" way to describe tip placement based on the idea that people use different size tips and the meaningfulness of spin / speed ratios as discussed by engineers.
 
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JoeW said:
.... I agree that it is not a complete system and was intended to be easy to learn and use within the confines of what is needed to describe a shot.

....

The tip offset suggestion is from another poster who had good reasons for this type of format. I do not know how well it would be accepted but it is a "better" way to describe tip placement based on the idea that people use different size tips and the meaningfulness of spin / speed ratios as discussed by engineers.
Click to expand...

I'm an engineer and do not understand how you are describing tip offset from the explanation above. Please show a few examples of exacty what you are describing, and also define "Center of Percussion", a term I have never heard in the context of pool.

Next, I am wondering what degree of accuracy you feel this system can attain, and what level of accuracy you feel is required ?

Last, but not least, two of your measures are relative while one is absolute. This makes portability an issue, which seems to be one of the objectives of any measurement system (easy to recreate). That just doesn't seem like good practice to me.

Dave
 
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