Table Notation Revised

[Jude Rosenstock]

Thanks for the comments. Obviously you find the system useless and that is fine. Don't use it.

I am sure that you take your laptop to the pool hall, the cafeteria and any place else you go in life. It is certainly a small matter to hook into any local wireless net for anyone in today's world. It only takes an hour or two and several atempts to learn Wei's system. Small price to pay.

Certainly one can capture the cuetable diagram at anytime, anyplace and print out the whole screen with nice color rendering. Of course some people have learned to crop the complete screen shot to only the table, reset the colors and have learned to use Paint quite effectively.

However, there may be some people out there who might like to remember a particular setup as they sat there in a bar league. Probably they should just print the blank cuetable diagram and take it with them.

The notational system was created when someone was attempting to find a way to accurately diagram their shots for later recall. This certainly is not the best or only solution. It is only one solution, for some people, some time.

As a matter of fact I have written a notebook that fits in one's shirt pocket for off-line use. One of the complaints was that it was not "easy" to diagram the shots accurately. Combine that with the prior need and this system was created.

Oh well, the world has problems and should be able to figure out a better solution. Certainly the cost of a laptop, wireless access, and color printers have come to the point where nearly anyone can afford them. Come to think of it you don't need a color printer if you carry your laptop with you

The system shown here was not intended to compete with Wei's system, it is for off- line use.

Perhaps you have a better solution for people with limited computer skills or lack of a laptop they are willing to take into a pool hall?

BTW have you noticed that trick shot artists carry around a three ring binder. Seems like a good idea to me. In fact I have notes on some shots that I rarely use. One of my projects is to make a notebook that I can take with me that shows three rail kicks based on diamonds and similar types of shots I seldom use.

Wouldn't it be nice if cuetable had a way to make and print one's own notebook that could be shown to and discussed with others? I wonder why that is not included?

Given the nature of pool players and their secrets I'll bet that some people do not want to store their secret systems on the net. Now how can one work with that proclivity?

Trick shot artists carry around binders because they're shooting very specific shots. In fact, trick shot success is all about being able to replicate a handful of shots. In game-competition, we don't have that luxury. Diagrammed shots are more about concept than they are about how to handle a very precise situation. What you should do when the cue-ball is 1.12 inches away from the side-pocket is going to be pretty much the same thing you would do if it's 1.16 inches away. However, trick-shots are a different story. With them, frequently multiple balls are getting pocketed so precision is very important.

 

[JoeW]

JAL,"... Also, it will be a happy day when "tips of english" is dropped from the lexicon. Again, for what it's worth, I think a system that Dr. Dave Alciatore uses frequently, namely percent of maximum english (or draw or follow) is much better. Here, 100% represents tip contact at 1/2 the cueball's radius. Maybe some numbers other than percentages, such as 1 - 10, might be used. Even better, imo, would be to designate a tip contact at 2/5'ths the cueball's radius as a unit or multiple of a unit, say 1, 10, or 100. This represents a spin/speed ratio of 1 and thus has a special physical significance. It's called the center of percussion by tech types and is close to the maximum offset."

From the prior thread.

I am not an engineer and assumed that if Alciatore as referenced by Jal used the terms it was acceptable. I did not read Dave's site. Perhaps you have more or better knowledge that would improve the system?

The degree of accuracy that can be obtained is probably based on one's ability to measure with a ruler -- not all that accurate. Given the allowable error in a pool shot over the length of a table this is obviously not sufficient. There is a trade off between being as accurate as is reasonably possible and the length of time and equipment needed to make an accurate measurement.

Yes there are absolute and relative measurements. I don't have a better solution -- do you?

I agree that we do not need the accuracy that trick shot artists need. However, I have found for instance that in one rail kicks from the corner pocket one should aim at the diamond in some instances and at the rail in front of the diamond in other instances in order to hit the diamond on the foot rail. When playing a three rail kick I have found that aiming at the rail in front of the diamond with varying amounts of English produces reliable results. However, I don't always remember when to use which one or the exact pattern that results. Parallel aiming (relative to the pocket) produces similar results when the CB is not located on the right track. If I were a pro I would probably have all these ideas memorized. I am not hence the "crutch."

 

[FLICKit]

You mean something like this?

http://cuetable.com/project/CueTableCutAngleCalIntro.html

Yeah Jude... Except that your example doesn't show the actual angle in degrees as aforementioned. If WEI added that feature, then it'd be exactly what I talked about.


"Always with the negative vibes Moriarity, always with the negative vibes"
Quote from Kelly's Heroes - Oddball (played by Donald Sutherland):

 

[cubc]

Yea it does. Below the table on the right hand side.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Yeah Jude... Except that your example doesn't show the actual angle in degrees as aforementioned. If WEI added that feature, then it'd be exactly what I talked about.


Quote from Kelly's Heroes - Oddball (played by Donald Sutherland):
"Always with the negative vibes Moriarity, always with the negative vibes"

I mean, Wei is a buddy of mine. We hang out in the same poolroom so whenever he develops something new, he actually shows it to me so I may be a little more adept at using cuetable (and his related products) than most but you should really take a closer look at what he currently has.

The angle calculator is a work in progress from what he last told me. There are still several things that he wants to incorporate. Unfortunately, Wei is also a perfectionist so whatever he releases is as close to the real thing as digitally possible. From one discussion we had, he mentioned that 3D was also something in the works which would be VERY cool.

I can understand a desire to make diagramming more detailed but instead of working on a separate project which really has an inferior base (a gif with numbers?), you should really convey whatever thoughts you might have to Wei. Either he's already done it and you just haven't found that feature yet or he might like your idea and incorporate it.

 

[FLICKit]

Yea it does. Below the table on the right hand side.

OK... there it is....

I've seen lotsa WEI tables, I've never seen this feature before....
Looks like it's new.

Suggestion that can be presented to WEI: consider if it would be more useful to display the degree angle near the interesection of the two lines.
Where a point on one line is connected to a point on the other line (same distance away from the intersection point) via an arc. The arc could have the degree angle associated with it.

 

[FLICKit]

I mean, Wei is a buddy of mine. We hang out in the same poolroom so whenever he develops something new, he actually shows it to me so I may be a little more adept at using cuetable (and his related products) than most but you should really take a closer look at what he currently has.

The angle calculator is a work in progress from what he last told me. There are still several things that he wants to incorporate. Unfortunately, Wei is also a perfectionist so whatever he releases is as close to the real thing as digitally possible. From one discussion we had, he mentioned that 3D was also something in the works which would be VERY cool.

Ah... No wonder why you were so doggedly one-sided on this issue. Look back through the thread, and you'll see that people agreed that it would be fine (and even an ideal solution) if WEI incorporated it into CueTable. WEI has done great work on CueTable! We all appreciate his perfectionism.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Ah... No wonder why you were so doggedly one-sided on this issue. Look back through the thread, and you'll see that people agreed that it would be fine (and even an ideal solution) if WEI incorporated it into CueTable. WEI has done great work on CueTable! We all appreciate his perfectionism.

If you met Wei, saw his devotion, enthusiasm and dedication to a project that he has been working on for YEARS and literally for OUR benefit, you would understand why I am doggedly one-sided. He is one of the most likeable people in New York City pool, a very talented programmer and a solid pool/billiards player.

 

[FLICKit]

If you met Wei, saw his devotion, enthusiasm and dedication to a project that he has been working on for YEARS and literally for OUR benefit, you would understand why I am doggedly one-sided. He is one of the most likeable people in New York City pool, a very talented programmer and a solid pool/billiards player.

Maybe one day I'll get a chance to meet the fine gentleman. Until then, please feel free to relay my gratitude for all the work he's done on WEI.

 

[DaveK]

Yes there are absolute and relative measurements. I don't have a better solution -- do you?

I don't see any problem, so no, I don't have a 'solution'. I read the Pro Book and replicate it's shots from Bobs descriptions and diagrams (no numbers). When I want to diagram a shot for whatever reason I do it (no numbers). I've never seen a need to reduce all of this information into numbers, nor do I see any use for this intermediary translation .... and I'm one of the more retentive engineers I know

Pool knowldege is not based on numbers Joe, it is based on visuals and feels. If you can't remember those all the numbers and standardized sytax in the world won't help you.

Dave

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

I don't see any problem, so no, I don't have a 'solution'. I read the Pro Book and replicate it's shots from Bobs descriptions and diagrams (no numbers). When I want to diagram a shot for whatever reason I do it (no numbers). I've never seen a need to reduce all of this information into numbers, nor do I see any use for this intermediary translation .... and I'm one of the more retentive engineers I know

Pool knowldege is not based on numbers Joe, it is based on visuals and feels. If you can't remember those all the numbers and standardized sytax in the world won't help you.

Dave

This is exactly it. A lot of the information you're requesting is trivial to the everyday pool player. 30 degress versus 32 degrees is the same thing. Now, the trickshot artist may have higher standards for diagramming but that's because they have higher expectations in a set number of shots. Trick shot artists are mastering 50 or 100 shots while pool players are preparing for anything the game can throw at them.

 

[JoeW]

The system presented was not intended to be used for any mathematical functions. It is a descriptive language that allows for some precision in describing a location. It could have been described as A,B,C. In this context the decimal notation system allows for "better" finer communication in a "language" that many people know.

While I suppose that one could calculate angles or even use some variation of a protractor the whole thing is only intended to help one describe a phenomena.

For instance, in my thinking there is not a reasonable (fast and accurate) method for tip off-set estimation. I think that the best method is still pointing at a location the player thinks they hit. There are other factors involved than mere "power."

I do think that pocket billiards could be reduced to a matematical system based on physics, but I am not interested in such systems. Some people are making pocket billiards robots -- boys and their toys.

I do not think the variables used including cartisian coordients, Clock, Tip placement and Power are trivial. I think the set is reduced to the bare minimum. No mention of angles is inthe system. These can be inferred from the description.