talent isnt everything !!!!!!!!!

TommyT

Obsessed
Silver Member
Excellent...I will look into the book and add it to my vast library of self improvement, mental toughness books whos content seems to allude me. :p;)
 

Tin Man

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
talent

Thank you for sharing. This article really demonstrates that talent is overrated. I couldn't agree more.

I've always said INPUT = OUTPUT. I should modify this to "Effective Input = Output". If you put in the wrong input you won't get results. If you don't put in a ton of input you won't get results.

When people talk talent, what they are really saying is "I put in a lot of input and I'm not seeing the same results as others. They must just be more gifted. It isn't fair!" The truth is that the other person you are comparing yourself to has probably 1) Put in way more input than you realize, and 2) Has put in more effective input.

I want to talk a bit about the effective piece of this. Why would people not put in effective input? Well, most people have a faulty narrative. They insist they have the knowledge and are on the right path, but the path they are on doesn't lead towards the results they want. But they are close minded. They want to prove their path is right more than they actually want to get better. I see this all the time. Then when they don't get results they aren't accountable, they blame a talent gap.

One small example: There is a guy I know who refuses to not try to crush the break. He wants every break to be 23mph with a huge cue ball pop that makes people turn their heads like in the Color of Money. The problem is he doesn't get consistent results. So we are playing on this one table that doesn't rack well, and with tight pockets the hard break wasn't working. Turns out this table responded better to a medium speed break. But when he heard this he refused to change his break and insisted this was how the pros do it. Fast forward to the competition, he was totally ineffective. In fact, at one point down 7-6 in a race to 8 he broke and jumped the table. His opponent ran out.

People continue to insist pool is all fundamentals, or pool is all talent, or whatever narrative they create in their head. These narratives are very dangerous. The truth is that pool is all IMPROVEMENT, and you have to adapt your narrative to what works in reality, because reality won't adapt to your narrative. It pays to spend time talking to top players and being open minded.

In short, do what works. Anyone that stubbornly goes down a dead end road and loses steam and stops putting in the right amount of work has to be accountable for their choice. Talent isn't a factor here.
 

rexus31

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Talent + Work Ethic = Champion
No Talent + Work Ethic = Also Ran
Talent + No Work Ethic = Also Ran
 

Tin Man

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
talent

Talent + Work Ethic = Champion
No Talent + Work Ethic = Also Ran
Talent + No Work Ethic = Also Ran

This is so destructive it triggers me for a moment. I calm myself by remembering than it's not my pool career that's being sabotaged by this belief. I am hitting my goals. If others want don't want to they are free to believe what they want.

I only reply to try to influence those starting on their journeys looking for guidance. When it comes to whether to believe in talent one road leads to success and one road doesn't. Choose wisely.
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This is so destructive it triggers me for a moment. I calm myself by remembering than it's not my pool career that's being sabotaged by this belief. I am hitting my goals. If others want don't want to they are free to believe what they want.

I only reply to try to influence those starting on their journeys looking for guidance. When it comes to whether to believe in talent one road leads to success and one road doesn't. Choose wisely.
Agree here. I've known a few players that really had little-to-no natural ability but with hard work and guts turned into monster players. Having natural ability/talent/feel is for sure helpful but in no way does it guarantee that one will be a top player.
 

rexus31

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This is so destructive it triggers me for a moment. I calm myself by remembering than it's not my pool career that's being sabotaged by this belief. I am hitting my goals. If others want don't want to they are free to believe what they want.

I only reply to try to influence those starting on their journeys looking for guidance. When it comes to whether to believe in talent one road leads to success and one road doesn't. Choose wisely.

How is it destructive? It's true.

You mean to tell me Shane, Earl, Dennis and all the rest of the champions would still be champions if they didn't have the talent or the work ethic? It takes both. You can hit balls for 10 hours a day but it doesn't mean you are going to win the US Open. The same holds true for the greats in all other sports.

I'm a prime example. I pitched (baseball) through college. My hard work and love of the sport got me that far as I was never the most talented guy on the pitching staff. When the time came to advance to the next level (Pro Ball), I was overlooked because my fastball topped out at 85mph. I didn't have the talent to play Pro Ball. Transversely, guys I played with had the talent to play pro ball but did not have the work ethic to advance past A or AA. It takes both to reach the pinnacle.
 

rexus31

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Agree here. I've known a few players that really had little-to-no natural ability but with hard work and guts turned into monster players. Having natural ability/talent/feel is for sure helpful but in no way does it guarantee that one will be a top player.

I'm not saying you can't succeed but you aren't going to be world class without both talent and hard work.
 

straightline

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The formula is 1 part inspiration to 99 parts perspiration. People confuse physical aptitude and ability for talent. Nope them is just the skills. Sports, music, whatever, the accomplished are credited with superior talent. I believe that's mostly a figment of the beholder. I'd say more but that would take astral projection. lol
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Here is a statement in that promotional/sales document:

Three things don’t appear to drive great performance. They are experience, specific inborn abilities, and general abilities such as intelligence and memory. ..

This is a rather remarkable statement.
 

SFC9ball

JimBaker PBIA Instructor
Silver Member
Thank you for sharing. This article really demonstrates that talent is overrated. I couldn't agree more.

I've always said INPUT = OUTPUT. I should modify this to "Effective Input = Output". If you put in the wrong input you won't get results. If you don't put in a ton of input you won't get results.

When people talk talent, what they are really saying is "I put in a lot of input and I'm not seeing the same results as others. They must just be more gifted. It isn't fair!" The truth is that the other person you are comparing yourself to has probably 1) Put in way more input than you realize, and 2) Has put in more effective input.

I want to talk a bit about the effective piece of this. Why would people not put in effective input? Well, most people have a faulty narrative. They insist they have the knowledge and are on the right path, but the path they are on doesn't lead towards the results they want. But they are close minded. They want to prove their path is right more than they actually want to get better. I see this all the time. Then when they don't get results they aren't accountable, they blame a talent gap.

One small example: There is a guy I know who refuses to not try to crush the break. He wants every break to be 23mph with a huge cue ball pop that makes people turn their heads like in the Color of Money. The problem is he doesn't get consistent results. So we are playing on this one table that doesn't rack well, and with tight pockets the hard break wasn't working. Turns out this table responded better to a medium speed break. But when he heard this he refused to change his break and insisted this was how the pros do it. Fast forward to the competition, he was totally ineffective. In fact, at one point down 7-6 in a race to 8 he broke and jumped the table. His opponent ran out.

People continue to insist pool is all fundamentals, or pool is all talent, or whatever narrative they create in their head. These narratives are very dangerous. The truth is that pool is all IMPROVEMENT, and you have to adapt your narrative to what works in reality, because reality won't adapt to your narrative. It pays to spend time talking to top players and being open minded.

In short, do what works. Anyone that stubbornly goes down a dead end road and loses steam and stops putting in the right amount of work has to be accountable for their choice. Talent isn't a factor here.

TinMan, you hit the nail on the head here! I feel a lot of Self Taught players don't know how or what to practice, they watch a video, read some material go to the table slap some balls around and call it practice. Garbage in is Garbage out!
 

pwd72s

recreational banger
Silver Member
Something I found very true:

"Deliberate practice requires focus and concentration, which
makes it mentally taxing and not likely to be a lot of fun."

Since I got into pool strictly for the fun, and knowing well that at age 76 I'll never be a very good player, why risk making myself remove the fun?

Not slamming those who do treat the game as more than recreation..more power to you.

I find myself happy with baby step improvements...things like working on rudimentary shape while using only center ball, etc. I do NOT want to remove the fun factor from the game. If I do, I'd just quit and look for fun elsewhere. It's a big world out there..just brimming over with fun things to do.
 

Tin Man

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
fun

Something I found very true:

"Deliberate practice requires focus and concentration, which
makes it mentally taxing and not likely to be a lot of fun."

Since I got into pool strictly for the fun, and knowing well that at age 76 I'll never be a very good player, why risk making myself remove the fun?

Not slamming those who do treat the game as more than recreation..more power to you.

I find myself happy with baby step improvements...things like working on rudimentary shape while using only center ball, etc. I do NOT want to remove the fun factor from the game. If I do, I'd just quit and look for fun elsewhere. It's a big world out there..just brimming over with fun things to do.

I agree 100% that pool should be fun. Different people find joy in different things.

Recreational players enjoy using pool as an excuse for a gathering of friends. They enjoy the boys night out, the drinking, the joking around. Sometimes pool can play a role in that with some trash talk or a choked 8 ball. This is one way to enjoy the game.

Another is that of a more hobbyist like yourself. You enjoy playing a bit, maybe learning a new shot or making a good run now and then. But it's meant to be an escape from the hardships of life, not another hardship in itself. My dad falls into this category. He has had a lot of fun playing despite not reaching a particularly high level.

Then some of us play competitively. For us the joy in the game comes from finding ways to develop ourselves into more effective players. For competitors the game goes beyond trying hard when at the table and becomes a meta strategy that combines with how we live our lives. Formulating a budget of time and energy and money to put into pool. Finding the most effective uses for that time and money. Analyzing our games. Sparring with better players. Doing drills. Watching the elite and breaking down pattern and technique. Getting coaching. Playing tournaments. Reading mental game books and journaling about our feelings during a match. And so on.

Much of this involves a sacrifice of the short term. We don't get to joke around like recreational players, and sometimes it takes discipline to put the break rak on and shoot 100 break shots when we really just want to run around and mop up easy runs. But the payoffs are sublime. There is nothing quite like finding yourself in a serious competition against players that were beyond you a year or two ago, then using the physical and mental tools you've worked hard on to hold yourself together and get a job done in a big way.

In fact, as you have more and more of those experiences they become so gratifying that they are not only worth all the hard work, they make the hard work enjoyable. I've learned that input = output. The more I put in, the more of those breakthroughs I have. I've done this enough that I actually feel the joy of the payoff while I'm doing the hard work. It's like any acquired taste where you learn to associate the payoff with the behavior. So I do have a ton of fun every time I play. Sometimes it's the intrinsic joy of preparation for competition. Sometimes it's the fun of showing up and reaping the extrinsic rewards. But it's all good.

That being said, there are a lot of competitors that are so perfectionistic and egotistical that they never enjoy themselves. They mistakenly believe that through self abuse and unrealistic standards they will motivate themselves and achieve a higher level of play. For this reason they sacrifice most of the joy in the game as part of their improvement strategy. I would argue this isn't effective either for good play or for quality of life. If you're referring to those players or if those players are the image you have of competitors I don't blame you for keeping it casual. I'd rather see hobby play than unnecessary misery.

So each to their own. Enjoy the game how you like. :)
 

jason

Unprofessional everything
Silver Member
I'm going to play the Devil's advocate on this one. Explain to me how someone who hits their head in an accident can instantly become a savant in music, math, or the arts. I think there is a natural talent, but I think all talent can improve with hard work and knowledge. I think the key to life isn't greatness, few achieve that. I think the key to life is self-improvement.

Just because some guy writes an article or book about a topic doesn't make it true. Examine for yourself and draw your own conclusions.

Disclaimer: I didn't not read the whole article, so forgive me if my comments were covered in the article.
 
Last edited:

PoolBum

Ace in the side.
Silver Member
Talent and hard work are not unrelated. Talent itself is a significant component in having the motivation to work hard, as are also environmental factors beyond our control.
 

maha

from way back when
Silver Member
hard work helps get you into the top tier when you are close to it. but it takes innate talent to get very far.

i knew lots of top pool players who hardly ever worked on their game. and also took up golf or some other skill game and became very good in a short time. so talent matters in my book.

people that believe anyone with hard work can make it to the top in a sport are ones without that amount of talent. so they use that to justify their place in the line.
 
Top