# TECHNICAL QUESTION

#### bbb

##### AzB Gold Member
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my friend is learning to play and going thru ray martin's 99 critical shots of pool
he came across these 2 carom shots and asked me why one is shot with right english (the 2 balls closer together )and the other with left english and draw(the balls farther apart)
first shot i presume is to throw the object ball to the left
the second one the draw is understandable but why the left english?
my question couldnt the shot be made with just draw? and made with low right too?

#### Patrick Johnson

##### Fish of the Day
Silver Member
...couldnt the shot be made with just draw? and made with low right too?
Both shots can be made with no spin. I don't think there's any reason to specify side spin with no position plan.

pj <- I know, I know... it's Ray Martin!
chgo

bbb

#### bbb

##### AzB Gold Member
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When the object ball actually touches the end rail it will take the left English which actually causes it to spin to the right after contact with the rail into the pocket.
Sometimes you just have to think, “be the ball”.
So why the opposite english on the other shot?

#### BRKNRUN

##### Showin some A\$\$
Silver Member
When the object ball actually touches the end rail it will take the left English which actually causes it to spin to the right after contact with the rail into the pocket.
Sometimes you just have to think, “be the ball”.
So why the opposite english on the other shot?
I don't quite agree with xradarx here......If the OB picks up running english on the rail....that spin when it hits the left face of the pocket could cause it to jar in the pocket.......The right english....(if hit a a smooth pace) will transfer to the OB and help (flatten) the angle into the rail and left face of the pocket......ball goes in.

#### bbb

##### AzB Gold Member
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When the object ball actually touches the end rail it will take the left English which actually causes it to spin to the right after contact with the rail into the pocket.
Sometimes you just have to think, “be the ball”.
I don't quite agree with xradarx here......If the OB picks up running english on the rail....that spin when it hits the left face of the pocket could cause it to jar in the pocket.......The right english....(if hit a a smooth pace) will transfer to the OB and help (flatten) the angle into the rail and left face of the pocket......ball goes in.
the object ball goes in the pocket in both cases above

again
in the 2 scenarios above the only difference is the distance the cue ball has to travel to carom into the object ball to pocket it
so why right english for one shot and low left on the other

#### BRKNRUN

##### Showin some A\$\$
Silver Member
the object ball goes in the pocket in both cases above

again
in the 2 scenarios above the only difference is the distance the cue ball has to travel to carom into the object ball to pocket it
so why right english for one shot and low left on the other
I don't think the pictures are to scale so it may be throwing you off....The distance of separation in the second shot is greater in the second shot....

In the first shot the CB will naturally carom from the first ball to the second ball....and they are so close that you cant get deep enough on the first ball to get a correct contact angle to send the OB straight in the pocket...so you need the "helping" english to alter the path of the OB....or at least flatten the angle off the rail so the ball goes.

In the second shot you are so far apart that a natural (ball to ball) carom is not there.....You need to stun it or draw it along the correct path to pocket the OB...

Typically....you can use the front of the first ball to the contact point on the OB for the correct path the CB needs to take....then line up straight into the carom ball and divide that from the needed path and it will give you the middle aim point on the carom ball with a stun/draw shot to send the CB along the proper line to pocket the OB.

Another possibility on the way the first shot is played is so the CB does not follow the OB into the pocket......depending on the hit.....with the balls being so close together around the pocket...a 1/2 roll can completely change the way you play a shot.....I think the diagrams are just prompts to throw some clusters around the pocket and experiment.

I just think the lack of scale is what is throwing you off.....look at the diamond (dot) as a reference to spacing....If you set it up on an actual table you will see how much greater the separation is...

#### bbb

##### AzB Gold Member
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I don't think the pictures are to scale so it may be throwing you off....The distance of separation in the second shot is greater in the second shot....

In the first shot the CB will naturally carom from the first ball to the second ball....and they are so close that you cant get deep enough on the first ball to get a correct contact angle to send the OB straight in the pocket...so you need the "helping" english to alter the path of the OB....or at least flatten the angle off the rail so the ball goes.

In the second shot you are so far apart that a natural (ball to ball) carom is not there.....You need to stun it or draw it along the correct path to pocket the OB...

Typically....you can use the front of the first ball to the contact point on the OB for the correct path the CB needs to take....then line up straight into the carom ball and divide that from the needed path and it will give you the middle aim point on the carom ball with a stun/draw shot to send the CB along the proper line to pocket the OB.

Another possibility on the way the first shot is played is so the CB does not follow the OB into the pocket......depending on the hit.....with the balls being so close together around the pocket...a 1/2 roll can completely change the way you play a shot.....I think the diagrams are just prompts to throw some clusters around the pocket and experiment.

I just think the lack of scale is what is throwing you off.....look at the diamond (dot) as a reference to spacing....If you set it up on an actual table you will see how much greater the separation is...
yes i think the first shot the right english is to throw the object to the left to make the ball
in the bottom shot
the draw is needed because of the distance
the left "might" help to hit the first ball alittle fuller and help the angle off the ball towards the 2nd object ball
but i think the second shot could be made with draw/low left
OR
low left
so i am still puzzled why ray said to hit it with low left

#### FranCrimi

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
In Ray's case, obviously for whatever reasons, the ways he describe in his book are the most successful for him. Back when Ray was my teacher, I of course, would ask 'why' a lot. He wouldn't tell me the answer directly but rather set up the shot in question and have me shoot it different ways. I'd always wind up coming to the conclusion that his way was best. Neither Ray nor I could do a physics calculation, but we both had eyes.

So always remember ---- physics helps you, but it's not the be-all and end-all. Sometimes it comes down to the simple answer of how you feel the shot the best. So just experiment with the shots and find what works (and feels) best for you, keeping Ray's suggestions in mind.

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#### WobblyStroke

##### Well-known member
I can't come up for a good reason either but can confirm that watching pros take on these close lil nudge shots, they tend to hit with inside and commentators will even sometimes predict that use of english in their commentary. It's like that open table cut into the side with no cushion contact for the CB after the hit from a major last year which got some discussion on the forum where JJ mentioned "the internet will tell you this shot doesn't need sidespin but almost every pro will hit it with a little outside.

Certain spins make certain shots easier and higher percentage. This we know. And I think Ray is sharing those insights....even if we don't always have the best physics explanation for it.

bbb

#### Bob Jewett

##### AZB Osmium Member
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I think the answer is a little more complicated.

For me, a very important factor is where I want to take the cue ball on this kind of shot. If I want to spin off the side rail and go to the right (up-table), I would aim to hit the first ball fuller to hit the second ball fuller to compensate for the throw from the right side spin. Similarly, if I want to spin down to the end rail with left, I would aim a little thinner on the first ball.

Either shot can be made with either side spin or none.

If you want to practice this kind of shot, which is very, very important at full-rack games, try this:

Take a short strip of heavy paper or mylar sheet. Put two donuts on it at the spacing you want to practice. Place them a diamond or so from the pocket so you have to be accurate with your carom. Try various approach angles with the cue ball and several rotations of the balls on the strip. Figure out what works best for you.

When this kind of shot comes up in games, you are often not able to choose how full you hit the first ball, so you need to figure out how to make the shot at extremes. At 14.1, the balls are often a diamond or more from the pocket, so you have to work on your accuracy.

#### bbb

##### AzB Gold Member
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thanks for all the replies