Thanks F8it for draw wrist snap info.

[DaveK]

Another explanation is the the wrist flick changes your fundamentals so that you hit the ball lower and get more back spin. Try aiming lower on the cue ball with your regular stroke until you miscue at least 10% of the time. Then come up a millimeter.

Bob, please correct me if I am misremembering, but when you did your break speed experiment in the driveway with a rail missing, did not one of your participants with a martial arts background shoot the farthest (ie fastest), and was not the explanation that he was able to perfectly time his wrist snap ? Just curious ....

Dave

 

[FLICKit]

Your assuming that I'm not an "advanced" player.

I never said you weren't... You're getting pretty sensitive ... Relax a bit.

I've been playing pool for 25 years and studying stroke mechanics for the last ten. I've read a dozen books on the subject and viewed a dozen instructional videos and the only place I've heard the "wrist snap" mentioned is on internet message boards. It's urban legend, you are not benefiting from the wrist snap, rather a side effect of the wrsit snap, which can (and should) be achieved by proper stroke mechanics. A proper stroke is the same for all players, short, tall, skinny, fat - as I said earlier, there is only one stroke in any and all billiard games.

I haven't seen it many places either. The wrist-snap was demonstrated to me by an AZ state champion player, who now gives instruction and is very effective. I have learned wrist-snap and use it and now enjoy and understand it's benefits, know when to use it and not, based on my abilities. For you, that means NEVER. So be it. I've benefitted from good training and have been able to develop the extra skill necessary.

If you can't use it, or get no benefit, then don't use it for yourself. That's fine. You've heard other people (besides me) state that they do gain benefit from using it, yet you won't accept it. To each their own.

So, because it's foreign to you, you call it "urban legend"?

What side effect are you referring to regarding the wrist snap?

If you think there's only one stroke, then you really aren't paying much attention.

Yes, you can also misscue by various means too.

Yep... with or without a wrist-snap, along with plenty of other ways as well.

The only way to accurately and repeatably deliver the cue to the cue ball is with a proper stroke. It's simple physics if you are playing with good form. If you are trying to re-invent the wheel - not so simple.

Not only are you ignoring the physic description which described 2 methods of generating the same speed at the point of contact, but you also must've missed the original thread where f8it posted at least 4 different strokes for simply executing a draw shot.

For example, good draw can be executed with no follow through. Not saying that I recommend it as a first option. But there are times and situations where it's necessary (i.e. cue ball within 1 inch of object ball). Show me a good follow through draw on that shot, and you'll be showing me a foul.

I've seen a handicapped player play with basically nothing from the elbow down, except 2 nubs. He has to use both arms, just to pick up the chalk. Surprisingly, pretty good player (of course not a pro player, so don't get technical). Now, you try to tell me he is using the same stroke. He can't possibly execute the stroke you're referring to. He uses a totally different method for breaking the balls - gets a good spread too.
But, in your world, he must be using the same stroke....

I've also seen a muscle bound guy, about 5'4" and 230 pounds shoot pool. Doubt at all that he could execute with any form of consistency the stroke that you mention. So, he compensates for it his own way, and as a result is a very good player (once again, not pro). Surprisingly, he has no backstroke at all, yet is an excellent shot maker and pretty good position play. I could describe it all you want, and you'd never believe he could have any game. Yet if you saw him in person, you'd see what he can do.

You look at the pro men and they have quite different strokes. Do you really believe that Allison Fisher, Efrem Reyes, Francisco Bustamante, Danny Basovich, Alex Pagulayan, Corey Duel, McCready, .... all have the same stroke and use that one stroke on every shot?

 

[Bob Jewett]

Bob, please correct me if I am misremembering, but when you did your break speed experiment in the driveway with a rail missing, did not one of your participants with a martial arts background shoot the farthest (ie fastest), and was not the explanation that he was able to perfectly time his wrist snap ? Just curious ...

The fastest break was reported by (a professor at Moorhead, Ky College, whose name I forget right now), and it was for a martial arts guy he knew. The speed was something like 35MPH. As far as the technique used, I think we need to ask a martial arts expert.

 

[Rickw]

The fastest break was reported by (a professor at Moorhead, Ky College, whose name I forget right now), and it was for a martial arts guy he knew. The speed was something like 35MPH. As far as the technique used, I think we need to ask a martial arts expert.

I believe the last BD magazine had an article on Charley "Hillbilly" Bryant and he reportedly broke the balls at 35 mph. Evidently he broke the cb and the TD put a speed sign up by his table that said the speed limit is 34 mph. Check to see whether he uses his wrist or not or just ask him because he's a board member.

 

[Rickw]

Oh I wasn't going to post on this thread but I just can't help it. When someone is learning to play this game, learning the proper basics is critical to becoming a good player sooner. Once you get to a proficient level, I don't see anything wrong with using a wrist stroke for certain shots the same as using the masse' stroke, the piquet' stroke, the jump stroke, etc. You use whatever works for you for a particular shot. I would not use a wrist stroke for a long tough shot because those shots call for extreme accuracy and I don't have the accuracy I need to make those shots with a wrist stroke. However, I would and do use this stroke for shorter shots that require a certain feel that I don't think I can achieve with a more fundamental stroke (elbow only). I have heard some of the pros say that they also use different strokes for different shots. When the pressure is on, you shoot the shot the way you feel most comfortable with at the time. JMHO.

 

[DaveK]

The fastest break was reported by (a professor at Moorhead, Ky College, whose name I forget right now), and it was for a martial arts guy he knew. The speed was something like 35MPH. As far as the technique used, I think we need to ask a martial arts expert.

OK, apparently I misremembered. I thought the martial arts guy was in on your experiment and was reported in a Byrne book, but your recollection is that some prof in KY kew some martial arts dude with a big break. Between the two of us and our fading memories, we will never find him to ask, and if we do find him we'll forget the question ... carry on ...

Dave

 

[bsmutz]

BrianK74
My, aren't we full of ourselves? Unless you are about 14' tall or move the balls to a more favorable position by hand during a game, there is no way possible on this earth that you can stroke every single shot the same way. You've never used a bridge? You've never had to reach down the table and push the stick forward using your whole arm, or shot behind your back, or jacked up the back of the cue like you talk about in your own friggin' post? Talk about an old wive's tale!!! Please allow the rest of us to use our own minds to form our own opinions about what works best for us. Just as an example, I took the time to learn how to shoot with one hand on shots that are difficult to reach using the "normal" stroke. This works very well for me and has for countless others. Thank you!

 

[DaveK]

BrianK74
My, aren't we full of ourselves? Unless you are about 14' tall or move the balls to a more favorable position by hand during a game, there is no way possible on this earth that you can stroke every single shot the same way. You've never used a bridge? You've never had to reach down the table and push the stick forward using your whole arm, or shot behind your back, or jacked up the back of the cue like you talk about in your own friggin' post? Talk about an old wive's tale!!! Please allow the rest of us to use our own minds to form our own opinions about what works best for us. Just as an example, I took the time to learn how to shoot with one hand on shots that are difficult to reach using the "normal" stroke. This works very well for me and has for countless others. Thank you!

Ya know there was in interesting tidbit here on AZ just after Jeanette Lee won the recent trick shot competition. She apparently went to Mike Massey for some instruction before competing, and one very interesting comment she made was something to the effect (read 'I paraphrase') "I never knew there were so many strokes in pool".

Dave, who believes that there is one main stroke in pool, plus a bunch of special case strokes that come up all too often... just like in golf

 

[Rickw]

All the shots you just mentioned are achieved with the same fundamental basics as a regular "proper stroke". What is changing is velocity and location of contact point on the cue-ball. If you are switching back and forth between stroke mechanics it's like having an identity crisis, you never know what to fall back on when it truly counts.




Yes, there is a "Nip Shot", a "Throw Shot", a "Timed Shot", a "Draw Shot", a "Follow shot", a "Bank Shot", a "Kick Shot" and a "Kill/Stop shot". These are the different shots the pros are referring to. Where do they state that they change the basic stroke mechanics for each shot?. They don't.

You have a right to your opinion and so do I. You're last comment, "They don't" is wrong as far as I'm concerned. I agree to disagree with you. So there!

BTW, you do not use the same stroke mechanics to shoot a piquet shot as you do any other shot. Many people reverse their grip to shoot it which certainly strays from the fundamental stroking mechanics wouldn't you agree?

 

[bsmutz]

Yeah, I guess it is very apparent to most everyone else on the planet that different strokes are acceptable or can be used to make balls fall in the pocket. My mistake for trying to point that out to Brian who apparently is so perfect that he couldn't possibly ever miss a shot. (Oh yeah, it's the Brian who is winning all those tournaments and beating all the pros this year!) You can use sarcasm all you want to, Brian, but my one-handed shot works for me and from what I've read has worked for plenty of other people also, pros and amateurs alike (especially people with only one arm). Ask anyone who has played against me. My previous understanding of a "bad habit" was something that would cause undesirable results. I guess I'm mistaken about that as well.
Bill ~ Guessing that reading posts written by rude, opinionated people is part of the duality of the universe so we will know who the polite, open-minded posters are.

 

[vapoolplayer]

bsmutz: - If I'm so wrong, and so way off base, why are you giving me so much attention?.

This topic has grown tired and I won't participate in this any further.

why do people always fall back on this line??? just because you get attention doesn't mean you're right or wrong............

personally i don't think there is only "one" stroke............there is one stroke for most shots, but there are some shots that require a different stroke.

the snap draw is a useful tool in certain situations.

the only thing i disagreed about was the statement that some people "have to rely on" the snap.

VAP

 

[Rickw]

why do people always fall back on this line??? just because you get attention doesn't mean you're right or wrong............

personally i don't think there is only "one" stroke............there is one stroke for most shots, but there are some shots that require a different stroke.

the snap draw is a useful tool in certain situations.

the only thing i disagreed about was the statement that some people "have to rely on" the snap.

VAP

VAP,

We're preaching the same sermon!

 

[vapoolplayer]

VAP,

We're preaching the same sermon!

Amen Brother!

VAP

 

[FLICKit]

Amen Brother!

VAP

We all are preaching that same sermon.

But of course one lone heretic has his own sermon, with none or few parishoners listening. Of course, in his world, he's the right one, and everyone else in the world is wrong...

There are many shots that can be executed much easier and more consistently with a different style of stroke. Yes, you can execute most of those shots with a basic stroke, but extra difficulty or effort is added in order to do so, usually resulting in a higher potential for failure. But, of course, someone who has never learned how to do those strokes, wouldn't have a clue, and would never agree. As was said, to each their own. Glad you've finally decided to ease up, even if you'll never be open-minded on the topic.

The rest of the world understands that there are many different kinds of stroke that may be used. Will use 2 examples just for emphasis...
1. Bridge shot
Instead of allowing your forearm to hang down (basically perpendicular to the ground) as with a basic stroke, many people do a 90 degree change (where forearm is basically parallel to the ground), some do a motion more similar to jump shot (described below).

2. Jump shot - especially with jump stick
now the forearm is pointed upwards, and the actions here is most effectively executed with a wrist snap, similar to the motion used for throwing a dart. Now, if you try to do this without a wrist snap, then you'll either be a less effective jumper, or you'll have to do so much to get your forearm to execute was is natural for your wrist to do, that you will have significantly increased the difficulty of the shot, just from your forearm stroke motion...

Of course you'll try to re-phrase it back into your lame 2 pivot point description, whereby basically everything a human does with his arm can be framed into 3 or less because of the joints (wrist, elbow, and shoulder - and the shoulder is usually eliminated from pool strokes). Now, in your world since you only use the other 2 pivot points, that means all strokes are the same. Which of course is hogwash....

So, be done. Go away. Stop wasting our time....