The base of the problem with the sport

[memikey]

Let me interject an idea. A great pool player has the precision with his Cue to make a Cue Ball, and Object Ball behave with in a very narrow margin of accuracy. Like a Neurosurgeon has the ability to work in and on very small spaces with his Surgical Knife. The Neurosurgeon is compensated for his skill, but the pool player is no.

You're so right. When you think about it there's not a smidgeon of difference between the expertise of a top neuro surgeon and that of a top pool pro.

The neuro suregon gets an inflated salary from an employer for complicated medical services rendered in nothing more admirable than a mere attempt to save or improve a patients life. The pro pool player gets peanuts and scraps for running complicated spreads in a table game which virtually nobody wants to watch.

It's a disgrace and an injustice. Those neuro surgeons and their employers should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves, as should all those prospective employers of pool pros who are currently hiding in the shadows.

It's not as if those neuro surgeons are always efficient. In fact we could be excused for thinking that someone who comes up with an "idea" like yours might well be proof that neuro surgeons often fail to complete surgery that they started.

 

[mullyman]

I'll agree that the shark or hustler image is a huge part of it. It also doesn't help that most pool rooms are smoke filled dens if inequity filled with scumbags. We've all seen them, and we all know them.

Another point is that pool isn't something that you can just step up and play. In most major recreational sports it doesn't take much effort to be able to do it well enough to enjoy yourself. Pool on the other hand isn't something that you just pick up a cue and start running balls. Granted, no sport is easy to do it well, but pool is way demanding.
MULLY

 

[mullyman]

You're so right. When you think about it there's not a smidgeon of difference between the expertise of a top neuro surgeon and that of a top pool pro.

The neuro suregon gets an inflated salary from an employer for complicated medical services rendered in nothing more admirable than a mere attempt to save or improve a patients life. The pro pool player gets peanuts and scraps for running complicated spreads in a table game which virtually nobody wants to watch.

It's a disgrace and an injustice. Those neuro surgeons and their employers should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves, as should all those prospective employers of pool pros who are currently hiding in the shadows.

It's not as if those neuro surgeons are always efficient. In fact we could be excused for thinking that someone who comes up with an "idea" like yours might well be proof that neuro surgeons often fail to complete surgery that they started.

Ok, the neurosurgeon analogy may not be the best but what about golf? I mean c'mon, pool is just as demanding as golf. Efren Reyes is just as good in his sport as Tiger Woods is in his. Why isn't Efren in advertisements for Mercedes and Rolex?
MULLY
They'd probably force him to put his teeth in first if he was

 

[memikey]

Ok, the neurosurgeon analogy may not be the best but what about golf? I mean c'mon, pool is just as demanding as golf. Efren Reyes is just as good in his sport as Tiger Woods is in his. Why isn't Efren in advertisements for Mercedes and Rolex?
MULLY
They'd probably force him to put his teeth in first if he was

Yes, teeth in...please!

Don't rake up the old golf/pool argument it's been done to death on here and elsewhere.

Efren isn't in Mercedes adverts because of three main factors....i.e. because.....

1. With a few exceptions which are mainly cue sports related companies, not enough advertisers are prepared to have their brand image associated with pool and/or not enough advertisers view pool fans as a significant potential market for their product. This is partly, though not wholly, as a result of 2 and 3 below.

2. Not remotely close to enough people, including accomplished pool players, recreational bangers and non pool players find pool within a million miles of being a skilful enough or interesting enough sport to convince them to spend their time watching it for free, let alone at a charge.

3. Pool is generally considered by advertisers and the rest of the non pool playing public as a pub game indulged in by either those who have some cue skills but are not talented enough to play snooker (a view widely held in Uk and Europe), or by those who are too lazy, unfit and uncoordinated to play any other sport and who are content to 'waste' their life in seedy dimly lit anti-social dumps full of the work-shy and the unemployable (a view widely held worldwide). A little inaccurate, unfair and depressing to us of course, but that's the way it is.


In essence, the above underlying fundamental reasons hold true worldwide, although to different degrees regionally. For example they are significantly more obvious factors in Europe and USA perceptions than in The Far East.

 

[Febreze]

I am personally disgusted by the publics image of possibly one of the greatest, most challenging sports in the world. If you can run two balls, the bangers call you a "hustler" which just makes me sick to my stomach. Whenever i hear someone say "pool shark" or "hustler" i immediatly ready myself for them to say something extremley ignorant about pool.

Pool is one of the most demanding mental sports on the planet which requires a lot of skill to play at a high level, and thats where the problem comes in. Pool takes massive amounts of skill to play consistently at a high level, but it does not take any real skill to pick up a cue for the first time, luck a few balls in, and feel like the man. We all frequent pool halls where countless bangers think they are champions because they lucked in an impossible shot (in the mean time being hooked behind another ball, but hey, what a shot right?!") and this leads to the game being taken less seriously.

I personally think it is a disgrace to go to prestigious tournaments like Derby City and see competitors dressed like slobs. I know i will catch a lot of flak for this, but i believe that if you are going to compete in any tournaments beyond your pool rooms local sunday nighter, you need to get yourself together and play the role of a professional and present pool to the public as a dignified sport. I dont mean throw on a three piece suit, but come on, a lot of us have been to the Derby and other such tournaments and i think most of us can agree some of the attire and attitudes of the competitors is sometimes shameful. I think anyone who tries to wear baggy, dirty clothes and flip flops should be barred from a tournament such as the Derby. I believe people owe it to pool to clean up its image. I dont care how comfortable you are playing in your filthy bare socks, grow up and buy a decent pair of shoes. Its just another punch in the teeth to pool everytime the public has to see some kid with his shirt down to his ankles compete in an event. I consider it disgusting.


Attitudes are even more important than physical presentation, and unfortunatly, theres a few bad ones floating around out there. Every pool room is filled with people screaming about who they beat, shouting into their cell phone and acting like jerks. Its a DISGRACE. Have some dignity and respect for other players and quit running around the pool hall like a little gremlin and shouting about the nuts or hustling or whatever else you did that day. Its tired, and its dragging this sport to its grave.


My extreme admiration, gratitude and respect goes out to every professional player who respresents our sport well and shows up to events playing the part of a professional. People can say what they will about Strickland, and i know he has his problems, but he shows up to every event dressed like a professional and ready to compete. I also have great respect for everyone, regardless of skill level, who loves the game and speaks highly of it to everyone they know.

(this post is not about anybody specific, just a general overview of some of the issues with our sport based on observation)

 

[TXsouthpaw]

theres no money in pool, plain and simple. People will overlook any bad image if the moneys right. Get the money then people will follow

 

[TimurA]

Hi,

I am turkish and live in İstanbul,Turkey.This is my first post in the pool section.

The cue sports are also in decline in Turkey.Good players play here dominantly carom games.Mostly straight rail and more talented ones play three cushion billiards.Pool seems to be left to starters or bangers here.

When I ask people,espacially good amateur carom players, why cue sports are in decline to Turkey ,their common and quick reply:İnternet.They say that young people no longer comes to halls and prefer to stay at home to play computer games and to chat in the net.They remember with pleasure early and middle 90's when cue sports exploded İn Turkey when Semih Saygıner came out and Billiard Federation was set up but the winds subsided.

İnternet argument is hard to object, but in life there must be always more causes than just one.For example,Bowling is getting more and more popular in Turkey.Bowling rooms are opened.They are full from the morning and companies organize competitions between their workers.So why is bowling not affected by İnternet? Also Bowling is not shown on TV in Turkey.There must be a cultural shift in my opinion at least in my country.Cue sport players probably from low-middle and middle classes turned their interest into computer games in whose virtuel world you may attain your entertainment ambitions without competition and with less cost but the upper middle class found his game :Bowling

there is no hustler tradition in Turkey,I must add.

There is one exception to the weakining of Cue sports in Turkey:Snooker.Local channel of Eurosport shows all grand prix and World Championship snooker matches with turkish commentary.There is surge of interest in espacially among educated ones for Snooker but there are very few tables in Turkey to play and practice snooker.Now it is watched like Formula 1 is watched .

USA and Turkey are different but there may be some common grounds to understand what is going on to cue sports

Regards,

 

[memikey]

Thanks for that welcome brief insight into the cue sport scene in Turkey and welcome to the forums, Timur.

Be prepared for some football jokes from any Portugese on here after last night's game!

 

[cuetable]

American society views places where gambling takes place as inappropriate for minors, and in many cases, minors are barred or discouraged from entering such places. Pool is a game that, by its very nature, is shutting out the kids, and it has, is, and will continue to pay a price for it.

Well said, thank you!

 

[jason]

hus?tler [huhs-ler] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
?noun

2. Slang. a person who employs fraudulent or unscrupulous methods to obtain money; swindler.
3. Informal. an expert gambler or game player who seeks out challengers, esp. unsuspecting amateur ones, in order to win money from them: He earned his living as a pool hustler.

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Hustling is the deceptive act of disguising one's skill in a sport or game with the intent of luring someone of probably lesser skill into gambling (or gambling for higher than current stakes) with the hustler, as a form of confidence trick. It is most commonly associated with pool (and to an extent other billiards-family games), but also can be performed with regard to other sports and gambling activities. Hustlers may also engage in "sharking": distracting, disheartening, enraging or even threatening to throw their opponents off. Hustlers are thus often called "pool sharks" (compare "card shark"). Professional and semi-pro hustlers sometimes work with a "stakehorse" ? a person who provides the money for the hustler to bet with (and may assist in the hustling) ? in exchange for a substantial portion of all winnings.

 

[TimurA]

Thanks for that welcome brief insight into the cue sport scene in Turkey and welcome to the forums, Timur.

Be prepared for some football jokes from any Portugese on here after last night's game!

Thanks for the welcome.

I did not watch the match.I was watching a 3 cushion match on my computer .Since 1998 ,my enthusiasm for football waned a lot.I only watch World Cups.It may sound comic.

Congratulations to Portugal by the way.

If I return to the main point:I believe Pool,Snooker and 3C are fantastic disciplines and Except snooker,which is booming in the Far East and Europe and its future seems very bright, other two disciplines seem a bit in trouble.The reason must be cultural.One very important point is whether a sport is in TV or not.İf a sport not televised in an important channel or a sport channel,İt is in big trouble in the modern area .

Regards,

 

[1pocket]

I think you are totally wrong. The problem with pool is that the people trying to promote the game to the masses are always trying to get away from the gambling/hustler aspect of the culture. It is that very dynamic that people would find the most fascinating about pool. ESPN coverage of pool is so bad that I cannot even watch, and I've been around pool all of my life. If they would just embrace the hustler image of pool instead of trying to make pro pool players look like pro bowlers, people might just find some interest in this culture.
Why did poker become so popular on TV in the last decade? It isn't the tournament format of poker, it's the fact that people are making a living at gambling that sparks the average person's interest. Pool is a much tougher game to learn and has a lot more personality if they would just let the personality shine through. You mentioned how boxing is sleazy and that public interest is down in recent years. Do you know how much Oscar De la Hoya made for his last fight against Floyd Mayweather? He made around $32 million that night. Not bad for a sport with a damaged image that people think is irreleveant, right?
In the last 25 years pool was at its peak when? It was after The Color of Money which was about hustling. There was a similar spike in popularity when The Hustler was made. What does that tell you? It tells me that people are interested in the hustling lifestyle and maybe one of these days someone will catch on to this and pool will see a similar spike that poker has seen in recent years.

Yes, very well said!!!

 

[bandido]

Maybe.....America is not conducive to pool.

 

[bandido]

Ok, the neurosurgeon analogy may not be the best but what about golf? I mean c'mon, pool is just as demanding as golf. Efren Reyes is just as good in his sport as Tiger Woods is in his. Why isn't Efren in advertisements for Mercedes and Rolex?
MULLY
They'd probably force him to put his teeth in first if he was

What for? Who doesn't like kissing babies?!
Not Mercedes or Rolex yet. Efren's been in TV and print commercials for an Eye Clinic (Laser Keratotomy), San Miguel Beer, Ginebra San Miguel and McDonalds Burger. He was a co-star in a movie, has been a contestant in a multitude of gameshows and guest in radio and TV talk shows.

Even Robeto Gomez, who was just a runner-up in WPC starred in a major TV commercial.

Most of the players here get exposure through television whether its from event coverage or jsut presscons with the Senate President who now has adopted the sport.

 

[bandido]

I think you are totally wrong. The problem with pool is that the people trying to promote the game to the masses are always trying to get away from the gambling/hustler aspect of the culture. It is that very dynamic that people would find the most fascinating about pool. ESPN coverage of pool is so bad that I cannot even watch, and I've been around pool all of my life. If they would just embrace the hustler image of pool instead of trying to make pro pool players look like pro bowlers, people might just find some interest in this culture.
Why did poker become so popular on TV in the last decade? It isn't the tournament format of poker, it's the fact that people are making a living at gambling that sparks the average person's interest. Pool is a much tougher game to learn and has a lot more personality if they would just let the personality shine through. You mentioned how boxing is sleazy and that public interest is down in recent years. Do you know how much Oscar De la Hoya made for his last fight against Floyd Mayweather? He made around $32 million that night. Not bad for a sport with a damaged image that people think is irreleveant, right?
In the last 25 years pool was at its peak when? It was after The Color of Money which was about hustling. There was a similar spike in popularity when The Hustler was made. What does that tell you? It tells me that people are interested in the hustling lifestyle and maybe one of these days someone will catch on to this and pool will see a similar spike that poker has seen in recent years.

That is why pool here in the Philippines is thriving, the masses can readily accept it for what it is and are thrilled of the progress that the poolplayers have made for themselves. The Philippines is not as culturally(not sure if this is the right term) advanced as the United States thus simple pleasures like corner unairconditioned (no chance from being smoke filled)poolhalls are abundant and as normal as the sun rising.

Man has always been hunters and warriors but back then they need not be politically correct.

 

[bandido]

double-post

 

[bandido]

I have said before that raising hustlers and other con-men onto a pedestal is a huge part of our sport's poor image. I also don't believe it will go away until a couple more generations have passed. I make sure to stop everybody that calls me a pool shark or hustler and explain to them I don't cheat people out of money and I only play tournaments and league. I feel insulted when someone calls me a hustler or pool shark.

Perception really. Sharks..Hustlers..has always been associated with pool but not exclusive to. Even the business world or legal profession have sharks.

Sharks...hustlers are accepted here in the Philippines as every poolplayer-that-does-good's starting point. It's normal in this sport! Every pool champion or wanna-be champion started out hustling then just turns to plain old gamblers. Nobody here declares that they don't gamble because they're a pro! They just don't pick on lower ranks without giving them a fighting chance. Nobody yells to the world here that "I'm a pro and the world should worship me", they keep proving themselves in the field of battle every chance they get! Pool is another avenue for the male specie here to be a warrior and a hunter or get out and just be a pansy.

Not that we don't have pansies here because we do. We organize lower-rank(low 3rd level and below), lower cost (less than US$5 entry and free table time) tournaments held twice a month. Yet there are some players, that I see having the skills to compete,that just don't have the guts nor desire to compete. These guys even boast of their abilities yet they truly are just pansies picking on the weak (the real vultures of the pool world)!

 

[catscradle]

...

Pool is not popular because people don't like it as much as we do. There's not enough interest in it. Therefore, not enough money for sponsors, tournaments, tours, etc etc etc.

Bingo, we have a winner. It really is as simple as people don't like it. Why?
It is basically boring to watch until you're good enough at it yourself to understand what is going on and even then it is more a learning experience than an entertainment. Also it is difficult to get even decent at and most people once they reach relative adulthood are not willing to go out in public and do something badly in order to get good at it. People who might otherwise be interested shy away from it because they think they'll look foolish. When we on this forum talk about "ball bangers" in a derisive way we are only encouraging that feeling of foolishness and discouraging people from taking it up.

The only way I see gambling comes into the equation is that the core of pool has always been gamblers, now they have the casinos and especially hold 'em to get their gambling fix with. Maybe that is why I'm still playing, I'm not a gambler, I just like to play the game.

 

[catscradle]

Yes, teeth in...please!

Don't rake up the old golf/pool argument it's been done to death on here and elsewhere.

Efren isn't in Mercedes adverts because of three main factors....i.e. because.....

1. With a few exceptions which are mainly cue sports related companies, not enough advertisers are prepared to have their brand image associated with pool and/or not enough advertisers view pool fans as a significant potential market for their product. This is partly, though not wholly, as a result of 2 and 3 below.

2. Not remotely close to enough people, including accomplished pool players, recreational bangers and non pool players find pool within a million miles of being a skilful enough or interesting enough sport to convince them to spend their time watching it for free, let alone at a charge.

3. Pool is generally considered by advertisers and the rest of the non pool playing public as a pub game indulged in by either those who have some cue skills but are not talented enough to play snooker (a view widely held in Uk and Europe), or by those who are too lazy, unfit and uncoordinated to play any other sport and who are content to 'waste' their life in seedy dimly lit anti-social dumps full of the work-shy and the unemployable (a view widely held worldwide). A little inaccurate, unfair and depressing to us of course, but that's the way it is.


In essence, the above underlying fundamental reasons hold true worldwide, although to different degrees regionally. For example they are significantly more obvious factors in Europe and USA perceptions than in The Far East.

Not to mention that Tiger Woods is recognized through out the world by people of all walks of life.
Efren is not recognized outside the pool playing community and for that matter a small subset of the pool playing community. Most pool players don't know or care who the pros are.

 

[Island Drive]

Maybe.....America is not conducive to pool.

If you take a long look at American society, when there were 5,000 pool rooms alone in New York City at the turn of the 20th century, a handful of great players that equal Efrens ability were born/created, that in itself is a great tell on how, when, and why players came out of this culture. America is the bedrock of competition pocket pool (not snooker).
Back in the day....lack of structure, education and financial opportunities drove many to spend their time doing what?.........SOMETHING.
The game of pool offers life, in all its forms, to be portrayed right in front of your eyes. Everything that goes on in a pool room goes on in every arena, from work to play to whatever.
The essence of pool alone gives it, its ability to "stand alone" pool...in the big picture....only needs itself to take care of itself. The Phillippines has a socio economic platform much like the US had when first convieved, we've lost tradition and values by the day/week/minute, whereas your country would appear to of kept its traditional values.
Now, where we're at, pool is what it is till someone has the ability show the masses, its simplicity, beauty, difficulty, and its culture.
We have too much ability in the US, its how and where we apply it that's lost.