The Betmore Report - St. Louis road trip completed

[Williebetmore]

Hey Willie?
regarding the above pic of you shooting, the one with the blue cloth with the Cardinal pics in the back...........

from what i can tell, your style in this pic is ABSOLUTELY NOT what mark wilson wanted me to do!!!

whats up there, dude? just clowning for a pic, perhaps? kinda curious here..........

DCP

p.s. not having a WPBA Event in Peoria isnt good.........

DCP,
Well, Mark and I have been working on the stroke and setup for 2 years. He has made only very minor adjustments the last 2 trips. I think my stroke is almost perfect at this point. What could you have seen that "violated" the principles of a sound stroke?? It might be a bad picture.

 

[Williebetmore]

Hi Willie,

Nice post, thank you.

May I ask you how do you see the balls with your glasses on? I have to switch to contact because I just can't see any long shots. (Not that I can see that much better with my contact, but it just feels like I could )

Very nice room and nice company you got there, thank you for sharing.

Happy holidays,
Richard

Richard,
I designed the glasses myself with the assistance of an ophthalmologist friend.

It's easy to do, and they work EXTREMELY well.

Get large, rimless frames. Have them adjust the nose pieces so that they sit a little higher than for normal use. Have the ophthalmologist design the prescription for focusing in the 2 to 10 foot range (not at infinity). If you use progressive bifocals, keep that area of the glasses very small. Get the lightweight lenses with UV protection. Use them only for pool (they do look a LITTLE BIT unusual). Enjoy.

For me, they work much better than contacts I see 20/15 with glasses, only 20/25 with contacts. Plus the contacts blur a little every time I blink - drives me crazy.

 

[X Breaker]

Richard,
I designed the glasses myself with the assistance of an ophthalmologist friend.

It's easy to do, and they work EXTREMELY well.

Get large, rimless frames. Have them adjust the nose pieces so that they sit a little higher than for normal use. Have the ophthalmologist design the prescription for focusing in the 2 to 10 foot range (not at infinity). If you use progressive bifocals, keep that area of the glasses very small. Get the lightweight lenses with UV protection. Use them only for pool (they do look a LITTLE BIT unusual). Enjoy.

For me, they work much better than contacts I see 20/15 with glasses, only 20/25 with contacts. Plus the contacts blur a little every time I blink - drives me crazy.

Don,
Thank you for the detailed info. I will tried that. The problem with me is that I do not have a high nose so it is quite difficult to have the nose piece sit higher. (Well, I am Asian... )
I did not know about that 2 to 10 feet part, thank you.
I will give this a try.
Your glasses do not really look different from everyday glasses to me.
Happy holidays,
Richard

 

[Williebetmore]

Don,
Thank you for the detailed info. I will tried that. The problem with me is that I do not have a high nose
Your glasses do not really look different from everyday glasses to me.

Richard

Richard,
I don't believe that your nose will make a difference. The nose pieces are just lowered/squeezed together; making the glasses ride higher (that is what makes them look a "little funny" in my opinion). If you can wear regular glasses, then fitting the pool glasses should NOT be a problem (the nose pieces ride on my nose at the same place as my regular glasses).

I had to get rid of the Decot HyWyd shooting glasses - they made me look like a deranged serial killer (you know, like breakup). These glasses are a definite improvement; but still I use them ONLY in the poolroom.

 

[DrCue'sProtege]

DCP,
Well, Mark and I have been working on the stroke and setup for 2 years. He has made only very minor adjustments the last 2 trips. I think my stroke is almost perfect at this point. What could you have seen that "violated" the principles of a sound stroke?? It might be a bad picture.

well, you are not nearly "Open" or "Turned" enough. at least according to my lesson with Mark Wilson. you look pretty much like i did before i went to mark, and he had me turn sooooo much and open up sooooo much that it hurt to turn my neck to look at the shot.

hope everyone understands this explanation.........

DCP

 

[Williebetmore]

well, you are not nearly "Open" or "Turned" enough. at least according to my lesson with Mark Wilson. you look pretty much like i did before i went to mark, and he had me turn sooooo much and open up sooooo much that it hurt to turn my neck to look at the shot.

hope everyone understands this explanation.........

DCP

DCP,
Naaaahhhhh. I'm open probably 30 degrees. It's just a strange angle of the photo (or maybe I had to lean against the table in an odd stance, I can't tell).

I have plenty of clearance (right hand swings freely), everything is on plane (when I do it right ), and my regular stance is open enough to be balanced (nice tripod effect with the bridge hand and the feet).

What a player thinks he looks like, and what he really looks like are often 2 different things; but I'm pretty sure mine is okay.

 

[daylate$short]

Decot

I recently got a set of Decot Hy-Wides....you should have heard the comments in the pool room when I put them on...."Where'd ya find the Coke bottles to make those lenses?....etc....etc.

No problem; all I care about is the view from MY SIDE OF THE LENSES!!! As far as I am concerned, it was some of the best money I ever spent.

Thanks for the report WBM....looking forward to seeing you in Louisville!

 

[Williebetmore]

I recently got a set of Decot Hy-Wides....you should have heard the comments in the pool room when I put them on...."Where'd ya find the Coke bottles to make those lenses?....etc....etc.

No problem; all I care about is the view from MY SIDE OF THE LENSES!!! As far as I am concerned, it was some of the best money I ever spent.

Thanks for the report WBM....looking forward to seeing you in Louisville!

Short one,
Wow, the guys in your pool room must be cultured and refined compared to mine. I was ragged unmercifully. I was okay with it until the animal husbandry jokes started, "what frog did you have to f@#k to get those glasses, etc." I did like them for shooting; my wife made me switch.

 

[Hal2]

Mark's lessons ....

Willie and Company,
I am glad to see that you and the rest enjoyed youselves at Mark's Bullpen. I am sure your time was well spent (no pun intended).

Three of the most important parts of Mark's expert lessons are: consistant and perfect mechanics, discipline that one asserts upon themself and finally ... patience.

Best Regards,
Hal in Ohio

 

[X Breaker]

DCP,
Naaaahhhhh. I'm open probably 30 degrees. It's just a strange angle of the photo (or maybe I had to lean against the table in an odd stance, I can't tell).

I have plenty of clearance (right hand swings freely), everything is on plane (when I do it right ), and my regular stance is open enough to be balanced (nice tripod effect with the bridge hand and the feet).

What a player thinks he looks like, and what he really looks like are often 2 different things; but I'm pretty sure mine is okay.

Are you saying you were all told to stand the same way?

 

[Williebetmore]

Three of the most important parts of Mark's expert lessons are: consistant and perfect mechanics, discipline that one asserts upon themself and finally ... patience.

Hal in Ohio

Hal,
I think you've captured the essence quite well. It's easy to say; freaking hard to accomplish (my opinion). I guess if it was easy, everyone could do it.

Hope to see you at DCC; also hope you can make it over to Betmore's Basement some weekend for some straight pool (it is the straight pool "shrine" of the Midwest....well, at least of Indiana....well, at least the northeast portion of central Indiana....well, it's the nicest poolroom in my neighborhood for sure). If I know far enough ahead of time, we might be able to arrange a game with some of the local experts.

 

[Williebetmore]

Are you saying you were all told to stand the same way?

X-man,
I am hesitant to speak for Mark, but I do NOT believe he has all of his student's stand the same way. I do know that he stresses several things to all students about the stroke and setup. Balance, Clearance, Comfort, Alignment.

Balance: The feet and bridge hand form a tripod, so the stance has to be at least a little open, with the back foot toes near the line of the shot. To be properly balanced the feet can't both line up on the shot line (though at least one great player plays that way).

Clearance:The right arm should swing freely without hitting the chest. Some degree of openness of the stance is usually required. You only need to be open enough to assure that the right arm is totally free (my interpretation), and to assure that there is some balance.

Comfort: The stance should be "pain free", NOT necessarily comfortable the first time you get in it. Minor adjustments and a little table time should be all that is necessary to make ANY stance comfortable. Comfort does NOT in ANY WAY mean a particular stance is good (hell I'm comfortable lounging in my chair, but I don't shoot from there).

Alignment: Have as few moving parts as possible; and have those moving parts all moving in the plane of the shot. Keith McCready and Willie Hoppe have proven that this is NOT necessary for advanced play; but surely a simple swing is easier and faster to learn for those of us too lazy to commit a lifetime to the attempt.

To DCP: It took me probably 6 or 7 sessions with Mark to refine my swing and setup. While I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, I'm not the dullest either (breakup is); this stuff is deceptively simple; but very hard to achieve. Let's play sometime and we can see whose swing repeats better; though I've only been playing 4 1/2 years and working with him sporadically over only the past year and a half, I am quite enthused over the progress I've made. I cannot recommend his approach highly enough - I cannot even believe how much I've improved. Not saying you should do it; just recommending him to others (I also noticed that Jeanette Lee did not mind Mark adjusting her stance and swing).

 

[Hal2]

The Basement - Brawl

Hal,

Hope to see you at DCC; also hope you can make it over to Betmore's Basement some weekend for some straight pool (it is the straight pool "shrine" of the Midwest....well, at least of Indiana....well, at least the northeast portion of central Indiana....well, it's the nicest poolroom in my neighborhood for sure). If I know far enough ahead of time, we might be able to arrange a game with some of the local experts.

Willie,

Thank you for gracious invitation.

After seeing the local expert company you travel with, maybe it would be best that I just drop-in, unannounced.

Best Regards and Happy Holidays,
Hal in Ohio

 

[X Breaker]

X-man,
I am hesitant to speak for Mark, but I do NOT believe he has all of his student's stand the same way. I do know that he stresses several things to all students about the stroke and setup. Balance, Clearance, Comfort, Alignment.

Balance: The feet and bridge hand form a tripod, so the stance has to be at least a little open, with the back foot toes near the line of the shot. To be properly balanced the feet can't both line up on the shot line (though at least one great player plays that way).

Clearance:The right arm should swing freely without hitting the chest. Some degree of openness of the stance is usually required. You only need to be open enough to assure that the right arm is totally free (my interpretation), and to assure that there is some balance.

Comfort: The stance should be "pain free", NOT necessarily comfortable the first time you get in it. Minor adjustments and a little table time should be all that is necessary to make ANY stance comfortable. Comfort does NOT in ANY WAY mean a particular stance is good (hell I'm comfortable lounging in my chair, but I don't shoot from there).

Alignment: Have as few moving parts as possible; and have those moving parts all moving in the plane of the shot. Keith McCready and Willie Hoppe have proven that this is NOT necessary for advanced play; but surely a simple swing is easier and faster to learn for those of us too lazy to commit a lifetime to the attempt.

To DCP: It took me probably 6 or 7 sessions with Mark to refine my swing and setup. While I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, I'm not the dullest either (breakup is); this stuff is deceptively simple; but very hard to achieve. Let's play sometime and we can see whose swing repeats better; though I've only been playing 4 1/2 years and working with him sporadically over only the past year and a half, I am quite enthused over the progress I've made. I cannot recommend his approach highly enough - I cannot even believe how much I've improved. Not saying you should do it; just recommending him to others (I also noticed that Jeanette Lee did not mind Mark adjusting her stance and swing).

Don,
Thank you so much for taking the time to reply in such great details, really appreciate it.
I was just surprised to read one poster commenting on your stance being "un Mark Wislon" after looking only at your picture. Hence my question.
I believe I was actually sitting at the same table once with Mr. Wilson and his wife during a dinner after the finals of the WPBA Nationals 2005, but I never had the opportunity to speak with him.
I have heard nothing but great comments about Mr. Wilson's teaching.
Thank you so much for sharing,
Richard

 

[lfigueroa]

Mark is probably one of the finest instructors in the country. I myself, when asked, have refered probably a couple dozen guys to Mark for lessons.

Having said all that... does he have them all stand the same way? Yes.

I've played in St. Louis for over a decade and I can tell you that you can always spot someone who's recently had lessons from Mark, from across the pool room -- they all stand exactly alike and it's almost kinda of funny, watching them with that stance, grip, and stroke, dipping the cue tip into the cloth.

My personal opinion is that it works for some people and doesn't for others.

Lou Figueroa
but whadda I know

Are you saying you were all told to stand the same way?

 

[Williebetmore]

Having said all that... does he have them all stand the same way? Yes.

Lou Figueroa
but whadda I know

Lou,
I would imagine they are fairly similar if they are trying to follow his instructions exactly. I will say however, that he has given me and some other students a fair amount of latitude in adjustment. Whether that constitutes the "same" general stance or not is questionable. Anyway, I think there is a fair bit of variation tolerated (but I could be seeing very small variations as being significant, and these might not be apparent or significant to a more casual observer - whadda I know).

In any case, I will agree that it is quite obvious when you see some crazy stance that the dude is NOT working with Mark on shot mechanics. I do believe that he does work with some students on other parts of the game (without adjusting mechanics if they choose not to change).

 

[lfigueroa]

Well, as we all have a tendacy to do, folks, after instruction, often over emphasize or exagerate what they were told to do. The problem, IMO, is that frequently someone takes a series of lessons, they go and try and implememt what they been shown, and end up overdoing the key things they remember. They remember "do this" and end up over doing "this." Basically, they end up a caricature of what they were being taught.

At one time or another I have had at least four or five of someone else's students, out of pure frustration, ask me "he showed me this -- what am I doing wrong?" And I always give the same answer, "I don't like to mess with someone else's student." But if they insist, I usuallly end up telling them that "I think" their instructor was trying to tell to do so and so and that they've somehow ended up exaggerarting that part of their instrucion and I tone them down a bit.

It usually works

Lou Figueroa

Lou,
I would imagine they are fairly similar if they are trying to follow his instructions exactly. I will say however, that he has given me and some other students a fair amount of latitude in adjustment. Whether that constitutes the "same" general stance or not is questionable. Anyway, I think there is a fair bit of variation tolerated (but I could be seeing very small variations as being significant, and these might not be apparent or significant to a more casual observer - whadda I know).

In any case, I will agree that it is quite obvious when you see some crazy stance that the dude is NOT working with Mark on shot mechanics. I do believe that he does work with some students on other parts of the game (without adjusting mechanics if they choose not to change).

 

[Williebetmore]

Basically, they end up a caricature of what they were being taught.

Lou Figueroa

Lou,
You are SO right.

I remember Phil Mickelson's golf coach saying that the difference between the pro and the amateur golfer was not more talent, but a better ability to feel and know what their body is doing during the swing. What they think they are doing during the swing is closer to reality than what the amateur thinks he is doing during the swing. I have always believed this about pool as well.

What we think we are doing, and what we think we were told is often different from what we are actually doing, and what we were actually told. I guess this keeps the instructors in business.

 

[lfigueroa]

WBM, boy ain't that da truth.

It's somewhat curious, but being aware of what you're actually doing vs what you think you're doing, or just what you want to do, is so crucial to getting better at pool (or anything), it's hard to get a handle on. Taking instruction from someone, or just making an observation about yourself one day and implementing it successfully the next day, is really, really hard to do.

I think it's one of the most important skills.

Lou Figueroa

Lou,
You are SO right.

I remember Phil Mickelson's golf coach saying that the difference between the pro and the amateur golfer was not more talent, but a better ability to feel and know what their body is doing during the swing. What they think they are doing during the swing is closer to reality than what the amateur thinks he is doing during the swing. I have always believed this about pool as well.

What we think we are doing, and what we think we were told is often different from what we are actually doing, and what we were actually told. I guess this keeps the instructors in business.