***The Cue Market***

[BradenK]

Bare with me as I have just come home from doing some playing and having a couple of drinks. I feel the need to vent. I think we all understand that the cue market is certainly a buyers market at this point in time. Many cues are not pulling the amount they rightly should be. Having said that, I am amazed at the amount of threads listing cues for sale at prices above 2500 for a cue that has hardly any work in it. Granted, there are cues out there that can still command these prices, but not too many. Let's use Tim Scruggs as an example. Even now, since Tim is not really making cues, you would be hard pressed to list a Scruggs four point with no veneers and a steel joint for $3000. And Tim has got to be one of the greats in this field. I would think top 15 of all time, and that is probably low. Should a sneaky pete really cost more than $1000 unless it's Gus, or George, or maybe Searing or Showman? Cues are an absolute amazing piece of functional art, and are to be greatly appreciated. But some of these threads truly amaze me. I can think of one certain Hoppe style cue that is loaded, and made by a truly great cue maker, that is in the ballpark of around 4000, and I think completely deserved. And then I see another thread for a cue with only points(no veneers) and a wrap for almost 3000. Maybe it's just me. I apologize in advance. I am not trying to bash anyone at all. I am really just trying to get a better understanding of this crazy a**ed market! Thanks all.

Braden

 

[CocoboloCowboy]

It is a some what of a buyers market NOW, who knows what next week will bring. If you have the CASH NOW there are some deal to be had. JMHO.

 

[JB Cases]

Welcome to the world. Call it evolution. The price something sells for is a result of many factors with the first of those factors being having the balls to ask for it. It's just life. For every price class there are buyers. If a product doesn't find demand in the price class it's listed at then it is either withdrawn from being offered to wait for a more favorable climate or it's dropped in price until it meets the level of buyers willing to spend on it.

Don't sweat it. My mom, the antiques and jewelry dealer, used to say that when people try to sell things at too high a price then they just want to show and tell not show and sell.

 

[dr9ball]

For every price class there are buyers. If a product doesn't find demand in the price class it's listed at then it is either withdrawn from being offered to wait for a more favorable climate or it's dropped in price until it meets the level of buyers willing to spend on it.

There are also times that if an item doesn't sell at a certain price that if you raise the price it will attract a buyer just because the buyer is looking for an item in the "higher" price range.

 

[trustyrusty]

never bothers me when I see a cue listed for higher (or even MUCH higher) than I'd pay for it....I go to the next thread.

Why does it bother you?

 

[CocoboloCowboy]

Welcome to the world. Call it evolution. The price something sells for is a result of many factors with the first of those factors being having the balls to ask for it. It's just life. For every price class there are buyers. If a product doesn't find demand in the price class it's listed at then it is either withdrawn from being offered to wait for a more favorable climate or it's dropped in price until it meets the level of buyers willing to spend on it.

Don't sweat it. My mom, the antiques and jewelry dealer, used to say that when people try to sell things at too high a price then they just want to show and tell not show and sell.

JB Cases speaks TRUTH!

 

[gunzby]

I have been seeing less and less Scruggs cues listed here since a load of em were listed soon after he retired. Because less are coming to market the price is probably going to go up.

There is a range that I will pay for a cue based on the look of the cue and who made it. While some may not pay a premium on a certain cue I might because I love the look of the cue.

 

[rayjay]

Just like other art, like paintings, it's not what's in it but who did it that gets the dough...or that's how it's supposed to work. It chaps my butt to see new, almost unknowns selling their conversion cues for what truly great cuemakers get...like that ebony/pink ivory Kikel or that Schick sneaky going for peanuts. Those guys are great!

 

[trustyrusty]

Just like other art, like paintings, it's not what's in it but who did it that gets the dough...or that's how it's supposed to work. It chaps my butt to see new, almost unknowns selling their conversion cues for what truly great cuemakers get...like that ebony/pink ivory Kikel or that Schick sneaky going for peanuts. Those guys are great!

lol - I been to TONS of ballgames, and don't think I've spent that much on peanuts in my LIFE. Kidding, of course, but something that bugs me is the lack of respect for cue makers that also have a production line of cues (like Jacoby and Pechauer)....sure they make some more affordable, less fancy cues, aimed more at the masses, but they can make some GREAT playing and LOOKING, high end cues as well. Dan Janes falls in this category as well...having a custom from him I'm sure would be a helluva cue.

 

[poolhustler]

Depends ALOT on the cuemaker and the demand/market for his cues.

One high demand maker and one really low demand cue maker can make the same basic cue.

One would sell for 3 or 4 times than the other.

Perceived quality, supply and demand.

 

[JB Cases]

Just like other art, like paintings, it's not what's in it but who did it that gets the dough...or that's how it's supposed to work. It chaps my butt to see new, almost unknowns selling their conversion cues for what truly great cuemakers get...like that ebony/pink ivory Kikel or that Schick sneaky going for peanuts. Those guys are great!

If you want to see what chaffs my ass go to www.portero.com and look at the prices that USED purses and other bags are getting.

When I look at the work we put into a case compared to a purse and the prices we get compared these are being offered for I am depressed.

You can have this one for $19,995

or you can have this for $550

 

[trustyrusty]

If you want to see what chaffs my ass go to www.portero.com and look at the prices that USED purses and other bags are getting.

When I look at the work we put into a case compared to a purse and the prices we get compared these are being offered for I am depressed.

You can have this one for $19,995

or you can have this for $550

Well, that bag looks to have some pick crocodile on it....good luck finding another pink crocodile! All the metal on the purse must be SOLID 24K gold!!!

What that bag is, is a "damn it, I screwed up, SORRY" gift from a guy that has a private plane and a yacht, to his (darn it, don't have a pre-nup) wife!! lol

 

[Woof Biscuit]

Well, that bag looks to have some pick crocodile on it....good luck finding another pink crocodile! All the metal on the purse must be SOLID 24K gold!!!

What that bag is, is a "damn it, I screwed up, SORRY" gift from a guy that has a private plane and a yacht, to his (darn it, don't have a pre-nup) wife!! lol

Ha! Just because you have money doesn't mean you have style.

I think Tim Scruggs 4 points are a bargain for a cue that is no longer made. He is one of the greats, IMO. I think his cues are a good investment if you plan on keeping them for a decade. You may out run the stock market.

 

[JB Cases]

There are also times that if an item doesn't sell at a certain price that if you raise the price it will attract a buyer just because the buyer is looking for an item in the "higher" price range.

This is true but rare. In a highly competitive market like cues you generally can't raise your price after offering it at a lower price.

Here is a somewhat related story. The big pool events in Vegas are notorious for having some vendors who drop their prices dramatically on the last day. As a result there are a lot of people conditioned to expect this and so one hears comments like, "I will wait until Sunday and you will sell it to me for half-price."

Now I followed a different business model than most at these shows in that I allowed all other vendors to use my booth as their warehouse. Most of the cases I had on display were likely to be sold to dealers at the close of the show or to other dealers shortly afterward. So I didn't need to move product desperately at the end of the show.

So one show I got particularly tired of these people saying that they were going to wait until Sunday to see what we did. On Sunday I put up a HUGE sign that said, "Last Day All Cases +10%".

People asked me what the +10% meant. My answer was that this was the last day they could see the cases in person and so if they wanted on then the price was retail plus 10% more. Naturally I didn't sell any cases that way but we all got a good laugh at the confused look on people's faces. Especially the ones who came back on Sunday only to find that the case they wanted was already gone.

 

[Bavafongoul]

What's Fair Nowadays????

No doubt about it....this has been and continues to be a buyers cue market and ever seller knows that unless this is their first attempt at selling a cue in the last 5 years. It doesn't matter how much you paid for the cue either....has no bearing on its priuce other than detremining whether you make a profit, breakk even or go backwards.

There are a ton of cues out there...more Scruggs' cues than in the past 18 months and that applies to just about everyone else too. Cue owners are offerring new cues every week and the problem is that there's no logic to what selling or for how much. There isn't one single reference book that buyers and sellers of cues can agree upon should be used as a guide to price cues.

The 3rd Ed Blue Book is a nice publication but when the cue maker pays to be listed in it, you gotta wonder 'bout it. And the prices are so out of touch with the market the last 2-3 years, and especially now when its at the lowest point, the book is almost worthless to bring up with a cue seller.
No seller trusts it and most every buyer wants to quote it....major disonnect.

I think the solution is to have a central cue sale listing that lists every single cue sold....original listing price & date and final sale date & amount. POtential cue buyers & sellers could search to see how many Richard Black, Paul Mottey, Scruggs or any other cue makers sticks have been sold over the last 12 mths, 90 days & 30 days.....you can see what cues sold for and have a much more reliable reference since it reflects the real world and not the aberrant thinking of some cue sellers & buyers....it offers a very level playing field....screw the Blue Book.

This way when a potnetial buyer & seller of a cue discus price, there's meaningful statistics to corroborate the asking/selling price of the cues. It's a central data bank and it removes all of the bullshit & hyperbole associated with why this cuemaker's cue is so rare & precious....duh? All you have to do is look at what's happened with say the sales of Tim Scruggs cues over the last 6 months and then there's really not much of an argument over how much the cue is really worth.

Sellers of cues will hate this because it takes away their abiloity to overstate the value of any cue and buyers will love it because facts are irrefutable....so I guess there's still be a disconnect between a buyer & seller of a cue regardless but the playing filed would certainly become a more level....Matt

 

[BradenK]

Thanks for all of the great comments. Some of the points mentioned I had never even considered, and so have been educated some, which is great. As to who asked why it bothers me, it is because, like many others, I have been burnt in the past by the "hype." True, the buyer should beware. But for many new buyers, they just cannot protect themselves totally.

Please keep the comments coming, and lets keep the thread friendly. I was honestly not trying to knock any makers or sellers at all. I was knocking the market in general. But I love hearing other people's thoughts on this topic. This is exactly why I love AZ and all the great members. And if I can learn something, that makes it all worth it. Happy Labor Day Weekend AZers!!

Braden

 

[BradenK]

Bavafongoul

If my grandmother saw me write that, she'd slap me. Though I heard her say it to my gramps a few times.

Anyway, I like your idea on leveling the playing field. That is exactly what needs to happen. Even though the market will always contain a fair amount of subjectivity, there is no reason it should not be more consistent. I do not enjoy seeing honest people getting burnt. The dishonest ones, well....fongoul to them!

P.S. I am Italian, and in my family, that word means something it may not to the rest of the world.

 

[BradenK]

Bump to see if we get anymore opinions or thoughts on the market.

 

[Shizzy319]

Pricing Information & Buyer's Rating

I think its a great idea to post sale prices on the cues that change hands on AZ, it might also do the opposite and motivate some people to pull some of their cues out of their collections and sell them when the prices are on the rise.

It would be really nice if at least when a seller moves a cue to put the sold price in his thread instead of just changing it to "SOLD" then at least if a buyer was looking for a particular cue maker he could search on his name and see some recent sold prices.

Anything to make buyers feel more confident in their purchase price I'm sure would help with the "Buyers Remorse" feelings that I am sure causes so many of the sales to never really go through on here. How many listings do you see on AZ that state "I'm Re listing due to buyer backing out of transaction" or "I never received payment"

It makes me crazy to hear of so many deals not being completed because a buyer backs out. I guess it's because I was brought up on the old adage that a man's word is his bond and if you agree to purchase something you should stand by your word and go through with the deal. I think if if you send an email stating that you agree to buy and you don't you should get a negative rating for breaking your word. i.e. your word should be like a contract.

I think every agreed upon transaction should have a mandatory feedback requirement weather it get paid for and completed or not. This would weed out some of the fake deals that seem to go on here everyday. I have seen what in my humble opinion appears to be people stating items have sold to try and stimulate sales for a particular maker or item when in reality they have not.

I think also a lot of times buyer's gets caught up in their emotions and make an agreement on a price only to think about it later and regret the deal they made which is why it would be nice to have some kind of rating to indicate this. Not necessarily a negative iTrader which is generally viewed more as someone misrepresenting an item they sold or just plain ripping someone off but more a rating that represented a persons level of communication weather it be helping others by sharing their knowledge or wasting peoples time on deals they never intend to go through with.

How about a "Sold Cue" Thread that has a picture of the complete cue, a basic condition description of the cue and the sold price and date? It could be by individual cue makers to make searching easier.

Just some thoughts,

Ken

 

[kybill9]

I have some underpriced $3000 dollar cues for sale. Nothing over $1800 except a Cognoscenti and a special made for me Bobby Hunter. Remember, it's a buyers market!!