The feel of a cue

[tedkaufman]

I think the joint collar also plays a part...if there is a collar. I like the type that is sleeved over the forearm wood, leaving much of the forearm wood exposed to butt up to the shaft wood. My Bender is that way, so was a Josswest i had (this was a radial flat faced), and my Mike Capone was that way too...

I agree completely. That's why ivory joints never made sense to me, at least compared to flat-faced wood/wood. Ivory (either ff or piloted) is a slight improvement over the feel of a SS piloted.

 

[lights_out]

Ted, thanks for pointing that out...I wasn't actually disagreeing with Gerry's post, per se, but in the general theory that tends to resonate here in the forums that the shaft, ferrule, and tip are the major factors in a cue's respective performance.

I am currently playing with a full splice cue with a wood/wood joint with a Radial pin, no weight bolt...the shaft has a shorter taper than most, with a linen phenolic ferrule and Moori M tip...and it is one of THE most responsive, solid cues I have ever shot with! I just love the way it plays...very stiff. I would never consider going with an after-market shaft for this cue...if I want to go stiffer still, I'll spend the same amount of money as one of the after-market shafts and get a Timeless Timber shaft from the maker...thus preserving the cues overall performance qualities.

Lisa

Thanks for your reply Lisa. I'm not gonna disagree with you about anything you said. The custom cue I have has two matching shafts which play very well. The reason I play it with the laminated shaft is over the years I've gotten so accustomed to the way the Z shaft plays I am confident with it and know how it plays as opposed to the shafts that came with the cue. I tried the fitted shafts, and while they play and feel great, they are unpredictable to me in how I must play them when I use english.

 

[lights_out]

The joint plays as big a part in the feel of a cue as does the tip, taper, ferrule, etc. Some people will disagree with me on this, but I know it to be true IMO.

The other thing you will find is that cues from the same maker with the same build can hit very differently. With the different piece of wood, drying time, how many cuts and how close together, and even as little as a couple mil difference in thickness will change the cue dramatically.

I have come to the conclusion that the best cues, no matter the make or build, have a certain vibration frequency to their hit. I think when someone likes the "feel" a cue, they are referring to the way the impact of the tip to the cue ball travels to their hand via energy/vibration.

I think some very smart cue builder will someday design a piece of equipment to test the vibration of a cues hit, and market each cue with a designation of that vibration number. We could also see the difference when a tip is changed, and what that does to the feel, .......because FEEL is subjective, and very hard to explain to another person, or cue builder.

Maybe I'll build something today?!

Gerry

I agree with you completely about the resonance and energy/vibration of a cue. The Predators all have the same muted feel which transfers little feedback, to me at least. While I'm not knocking Predator's products, I think they make a great cue, I just love the feedback I'm getting from my Schon. When you do build that test equipment, let me know, I'll be your first customer!

 

[lights_out]

What exactly do you like about the Z shaft? What is the difference between a Z and a regular shaft?

The Z shaft has a smaller taper and due to the qualities built into it (hollow core, short and flexible ferrule, less mass, etc.), it causes less deflection when using english. I'm not saying cuemakers don't make a shaft with less deflection but I'm used to the way the Z shaft plays and can make shots using side time after time without having to think about how much to compensate. I also use a very tight closed bridge and have big hands. The small taper is just more comfortable for me.

 

[ridewiththewind]

Thanks for your reply Lisa. I'm not gonna disagree with you about anything you said. The custom cue I have has two matching shafts which play very well. The reason I play it with the laminated shaft is over the years I've gotten so accustomed to the way the Z shaft plays I am confident with it and know how it plays as opposed to the shafts that came with the cue. I tried the fitted shafts, and while they play and feel great, they are unpredictable to me in how I must play them when I use english.

Old habits are hard to break... LOL! j/k

 

[buddha162]

Forearm wood makes a HUGE difference in feel. Example: 2 Skip Westons I own, one maple one ebony...identical specs, joint material, and I assume A-joint configeration/material as well, all matching predator shafts.

The Ebony one hits hard and solid, pings beautifully; the maple one hits soft and somewhat mushy.

As for joint configerations: I've never picked up a uni-loc cue that I liked, and I've hit with over a dozen...production and custom, a wide swath of cues that are just worthless imo.

-Roger

 

[BarenbruggeCues]

Hey I type with my right index finger also!
Me too.
The heel of my left hand is worn out. I'm gonna start using the top of my head from now on. It'd be closer to my ear too.

Ah yes.........very understandable! The sound waves have less air to travel through that way also!!

 

[Snapshot9]

It's like

making love, although you may get enthused with various parts at times, in the end, you realize that it is everything together that makes it so great.

or in more general terms, The whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

 

[alstl]

The Z shaft has a smaller taper and due to the qualities built into it (hollow core, short and flexible ferrule, less mass, etc.), it causes less deflection when using english. I'm not saying cuemakers don't make a shaft with less deflection but I'm used to the way the Z shaft plays and can make shots using side time after time without having to think about how much to compensate. I also use a very tight closed bridge and have big hands. The small taper is just more comfortable for me.

I have a Schon and used to have a 314 that I played with. I sent the original shaft to Evan Clarke at Schon to have him trim it to 12.75 mm and after that I sold the 314 and I haven't played with anything else since. I'm interested in the Z because it represents a pretty radical departure from the ordinary, but I don't want to spend $200 just to experiment with it.

Thanks,
Al

 

[80none]

Ted, thanks for pointing that out...I wasn't actually disagreeing with Gerry's post, per se, but in the general theory that tends to resonate here in the forums that the shaft, ferrule, and tip are the major factors in a cue's respective performance.

I am currently playing with a full splice cue with a wood/wood joint with a Radial pin, no weight bolt...the shaft has a shorter taper than most, with a linen phenolic ferrule and Moori M tip...and it is one of THE most responsive, solid cues I have ever shot with! I just love the way it plays...very stiff. I would never consider going with an after-market shaft for this cue...if I want to go stiffer still, I'll spend the same amount of money as one of the after-market shafts and get a Timeless Timber shaft from the maker...thus preserving the cues overall performance qualities.

Lisa

i have two cues, one being full splice and the other short splice. short splice is supposed to have A joint. i noticed that full one feels to convey wider band of frequency compared to short one, especially in lower frequencies. thus, full one 'booms' while short one 'pings' on hitting.

i would like to see frequency spectrums of various cues picked up at the handle very much. or the resonance analysis can be a subject in computer aided physics.

i might not be able to attribute the difference to the presence of A joint because many other factors are different too; shaft joint, point wood, shaft taper and tips are all different.

 

[Gerry]

I agree with you completely about the resonance and energy/vibration of a cue. The Predators all have the same muted feel which transfers little feedback, to me at least. While I'm not knocking Predator's products, I think they make a great cue, I just love the feedback I'm getting from my Schon. When you do build that test equipment, let me know, I'll be your first customer!

I'll let you know if I get it right Steve!...I went through experimenting with Predators from the day they were built. I too felt they had a muted hit, and I lost feel on delicate shots. I also play with Schon cues, and feel they have some of the best shaft/taper/ferrule/tip combos out there.

If you get the chance, try one of Lucasi's radial spliced shafts. I have 2 of them and an LE 27 Lucasi that plays like a mix of a Predator, and a Schon.

Gerry

 

[xidica]

Up until recently I have been playing almost exclusively with Predator cues and the Z shaft. I love my Z shafts! Can't be without one. All my cues and shafts have the Uni-Lock joint and are interchangable. No matter which combination of butt and shaft I played, they pretty much all felt the same. I also use Talisman WB hard tips on all my shafts.

Recently I purchased a custom cue with a SS piloted 5/16x14 joint and immediately ordered a Z shaft for it with the Talisman WB hard tip. I expected it to play and feel close to the same as my Predator cues, with the exception of weight and balance point, based on what I've read here in the past about the feel of the cue coming mostly from the joint, shaft, and tip. This cue feels nothing like my Predators. It has a much stiffer and crisper hit, I love it! A week later I came across a deal on a Schon LTD that I couldn't pass up. Schons have the same SS piloted 5/16x14 joint. Of course I ordered it with a Z shaft so I would have a spare in my case. This Schon hits harder and crisper than the custom using the same shaft. I now have my new playing cue.

My question is how is it that two different cues of roughly the same weight, balance point, and joint, using the same shafts, feel so different? I would think that this example disproves the notion that most of the feel you get from a cue comes from the shaft.

Similar :
Weight/Balance Point/Joint/Shafts

Possible Differences :
Length/Wood/Tip/Ferrule/Joint Material

The biggest thing you have to understand is that in all reality, if the above four factors don't account for it; it may be all mental.

Congrats!

 

[DaveK]

I think some very smart cue builder will someday design a piece of equipment to test the vibration of a cues hit, and market each cue with a designation of that vibration number.

I have a couple of piezo sensors for exactly this purpose. Unfortunately the project is a little down the list and I'm not very smart nor am I a cue maker.

Dave