The First Shot in One Pocket

Rod said:
I'd shoot the 4 across the 10 and take it out. Then hide the c/b behind the 7. Fairly simple and aggressive plus it cancels his break advantage. I'd live with it even if it was hit less than stellar. Looks something like this but I don't know how to hide whitey without actually moving it.

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Rod
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Assuming you hit your shot perfectly, this is what you'd be facing.

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Here's what happens if you hit the 10 even a hair too thick.. Page two is the response.

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And here's what happens if you hit the 10 ball too thin. Page 2 is the response.

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Do you still like your shot? Perhaps you meant to EXACTLY freeze between the 7 and the ball next to it, while PERFECTLY controlling speed and direction of the 4 ball?

And I won't even debate you on what a "really good player" would do or not do. I have I think, just about every One Pocket DVD Accu-Stats ever put out, and most of the One Pocket tapes they have I have dubbed to DVD, and I guarantee you the pros shoot my shot all the time, and the ones that try your shot.. Well, let's just say they don't usually try your shot..

Russ
 
Rod said:
Risk isn't very high since I was the first to mention the shot. Although mine will be a softer shot it is effective. Its the first step to equalizing the break. Wei wanted to hit it firm, Me, I'll just wait a bit and set the other guy up in time.

Shooting behind that 10 is just asking for trouble and you haven't changed anything, you'll still be ducking. It it walks like, quacks like, well...............

Like senior said, no real good player will duck behind that 10, well unless he doesn't know 1 hole. LOL

Rod
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All those silly talks about girls aside (sorry I got carried away a bit since this is my first time playing one pocket with a lady), another reason to hit it firm is to move the CB away from the end rail and protect 11 and 5 and to make sure 4 and 10 leave the area. There is no bank in the pack for her at the moment, so this can be a safe shot.

Any small degrees of shifting on the 4 will change things completely, and we need to be able to see this layout in 3D to have a better judgement. Ideally we want the 4 to hit the left side of the 10. If the 10 hits the left side (somewhere between 6-8 o'clock) of 6 or 11 at good speed or 1 of the balls moves to the long rail side of the pocket, she will be in a lot of trouble.

.. so much for my chance for being a real gentleman :o ...


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I like the shot Russ showed.. The only thing is I don't think that the 15 ball moves that far if you hit it the right speed to tuck behind the 10... the 15 stays on her side - but you buy some time.

The crazy offensive shot I see is shooting the 11 off of the 5 into your hole, the 4 gets caromed into the 6 at such an angle that the six might make it back down towards your hole off of the 13 and the 4 goes up table... 10 stays, however.
 
Russ Chewning said:
And I won't even debate you on what a "really good player" would do or not do. I have I think, just about every One Pocket DVD Accu-Stats ever put out, and most of the One Pocket tapes they have I have dubbed to DVD, and I guarantee you the pros shoot my shot all the time, and the ones that try your shot.. Well, let's just say they don't usually try your shot..
Russ
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Umm, okay....you ever played any of them???
 
senor said:
Umm, okay....you ever played any of them???
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What does it matter? Seriously... Please tell me, WHY it would matter if I played Joe Champion?

Both you and Rod said no "really good player" would play my shot snuggling up to the 10.

I called shenanigans and told you both that I have seen numerous "really good players" shoot the exact shot I diagrammed ON VIDEO.

Then, I demonstrated how Rod's shot, playing safe behind the 7, IMMEDIATELY sells outs.

For Rod's sake, I guess I have to repeat what mosconiac already said:

YOU NEVER DUCK BEHIND THE WRONG SIDE OF THE STACK, IT WILL GET YOU BROKE.

Ducking against the head of the stack is different, you have options. But Rod's shot is a sucker shot. Sorry. There it is, I said it. Mine might not be the right shot, but it is 20 times better than Rod's, for the reasons shown.

What's the problem here, senor. I just asked Rod if he still liked his shot after seeing the responses. And he never answered.

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention. You shot, being very similar to his, has the same problem of: "What happens if you hit the 10 a smidge too thick with the 4 ball?" I guess you have a brain that automatically adjusts for the humidity in the room, so you will always hit that 4 EXACTLY where you want it.

Yeah, I do take it personally when people say "Oh, a Pro would neeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeever shoot that shot.", when I have seen it ON VIDEO only about 100 times. Like I said, I am just giving my opinion on the shot. I got no problem with you guys doing the same. But when you step out of line by saying "No good player would shoot that shot.", and I know that to be categorically false, I'm gonna let you know.

Loudly.

Russ
 
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Rod said:
Like senior said, no real good player will duck behind that 10, well unless he doesn't know 1 hole. LOL

Rod
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Admittedly, I shouldn't be confused with a one-pocket player, but ducking behind the 10-ball seems to be a standard play that's shot by the top players in both Winning One-Pocket and Shots, Moves, & Strategies, plus a whole slew of times on DVD matches that I've seen.

Fred
 
You're getting excited again Russ, its time for you're meds. Sure you can draw those different angles on the 11 bank. Problem is the c/b won't take that exact angle. At least it won't given your proposed english. Oh, and there is always the dreaded kiss. Thanks but no thanks to 1 hole ideas.

Rod
 
Yeah Cornerman.. I just tend to lose it when I see people give bad advice, and attach the "no pro would shoot your shot" label to someone else's shot, in order to denigrate the shot.

They mislead developing players in order to inflate their own ego.

Let me be clear. My shot is just the one I prefer. It may not be the "best" shot, but it is a common shot played by the pros. I am not making any statements that my shot is the "only" shot, but I do take exception to someone who obviously hasn't seen 50-60 top one Pocket players play, saying the pros would never shoot my shot. When I have seen them do so many, mnay, many times.

Just because they have seen ONE good One Pocket player in their area, who has an unorthodox, insanely aggressive style, does not qualify them to pass judgements on a shot they never saw their man take.

Russ
 
Rod said:
You're getting excited again Russ, its time for you're meds. Sure you can draw those different angles on the 11 bank. Problem is the c/b won't take that exact angle. At least it won't given your proposed english. Oh, and there is always the dreaded kiss. Thanks but no thanks to 1 hole ideas.

Rod
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Does it really matter what angle the CB comes off? What matters, is it's gonna be safe. You are ducking on the wrong side of the stack, and selling out a combo bank and letting your opponent hide you behind the stack.

And just because YOU can't get the CB to follow that path doesn't mean better players than you can't. It's a friggin stunshot with sidespin. What other path do you expect it to take?

Please draw it for us, and show us how slick a player you are. You are 0 for 1 already, since you drew your 4 coming off the rail much sharper than it should to contact the 10 ball where you want to. The angle into the rail you drew will come out thick on the 10, not as thin as you drew it.

And oh yeah, I don't even think it is possible to get behind the 7 shooting your shot. That's probably why you didn't draw the CB path. :D

If we ever meet, perhaps at DCC, we'll set up this position, bet $100.00 on the game, and I'll PAY you $20.00 to shoot your shot.

Is it a bet? :D :D :D

Russ
 
Russ Chewning said:
This is my choice if I am executing well.. Firm hit, just above center, speed to freeze on bottom rail.

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That is the super aggressive option. This one is a bit safer. Hit with the same just above center ball, but softer. Danger of leaving a bank on the 1. The 1 CAN be gotten out of there if you hit harder, but the cue ball is harder to control.

This other shot is the safer one.

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If I am playing a champion, I go with shot 2. If I am playing anyone else, including a hot chick who happens to be a banger, I play shot 1, unless I am not executing well.

For me, there is no such thing as a "trying to get laid" shot. When I first met my wife, I slaughtered her, playing as well as I could. Trying to impress a girl has never once crossed my mind while I was playing or practicing on a pool table.

Russ
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From what I can tell the six looks bankable. I would bank that ball back to your side with right english leaving the cue ball on the rail above the side pocket. Sorry...don't know how to use these tables yet.
 
Russ Chewning said:
What does it matter? Seriously... Please tell me, WHY it would matter if I played Joe Champion?

Both you and Rod said no "really good player" would play my shot snuggling up to the 10.
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I think it would matter so you can see in person when players try to move balls towards their hole and when they try to duck behind one ball that is 3 1/2 feet away from the first object ball. You can't tell exactly how a shot lies on TV, especially in one pocket. I've already said that I would be forced to try to duck behind the 10 if the 4 wasn't laying right. But it's definately not my first option, and usually my last option.
 
senor said:
I think it would matter so you can see in person when players try to move balls towards their hole and when they try to duck behind one ball that is 3 1/2 feet away from the first object ball. You can't tell exactly how a shot lies on TV, especially in one pocket. I've already said that I would be forced to try to duck behind the 10 if the 4 wasn't laying right. But it's definately not my first option, and usually my last option.
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Senor, it is tough to try to talk logic with Short Bus Russ. Both of his shots he diagrammed are horrible and very few good players would ever play either. People agreeing with him have not set the shots up and tried them or they would know they are horrible. Trying to get behind the 10 is way more difficult than it looks on paper (you have to draw the cueball perfectly while being slightly jacked up). The other shot he diagrammed going to the top rail and freezing the cueball is nice on paper also but very difficult to execute and if you don't freeze the cueball the incoming player has a lot of easy options.

Moving the 10 by going into it with the 4 looks like the best option with attention being on moving the cueball perfectly the few inches necessary to tie it up in the stack. It is way easier to execute than the other shots.

The best option is
 
Russ Chewning said:
YOU NEVER DUCK BEHIND THE WRONG SIDE OF THE STACK, IT WILL GET YOU BROKE.



Yeah, I do take it personally when people say "Oh, a Pro would neeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeever shoot that shot.", when I have seen it ON VIDEO only about 100 times. Like I said, I am just giving my opinion on the shot. I got no problem with you guys doing the same. But when you step out of line by saying "No good player would shoot that shot.", and I know that to be categorically false, I'm gonna let you know.

Loudly.

Russ
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You are lying (about seeing that shot on video 100 times). The first statement is false. There are many situations where the best move is to duck to the wrong side of the stack although not the best option usually, however, the move here is not even to the wrong side but into the stack which is completely different.

You have not seen that shot on video 100 times. Set the shot up and shoot it and see the results. Freezing up against the 10 is vv difficult. I have seen many poor players try to get behind the 10 and the usual result is a scratch for some reason. I think I saw a video of Pagulayan recently that someone posted and he tried a similar touch shot and he scratched.

If the balls were laying out a lot further and there was a natural angle and the cueball wasn't below the balls then I might agree with you but very, very few one pocket players have the ability to execute your shot (a few inches from the rail, jacked up, drawing the ball softly "yeah right").
 
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Cornerman said:
I wonder if anyone bothered to read your text comments on all the diagrams!!!!

Anyway, I like Russ' second shot (get behind the 10-ball). But, I also like this intentional:

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or crawl this safety, which may end up scratching a point:

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Fred
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Hey, Fred, wazzup? Sorry I couldn't get back to this sooner - too much work these days.

I really like your "crawl" safety for its outside-the-box ingenuity, although it looks like it might sell out the 10. Same concern with the intentional scratch safety.

pj
chgo
 
Hey, Alex, long time no see.

Yeah, I agree that Russ's duck-behind-the-10 shot looks like the best bet, and I know I'm supposed to be able to execute it if I want to call myself a 1-pocket player, but reality (where I visit occasionally) isn't the Wei table and I'd just as likely scratch off the 10, end up on the wrong side of it or not behind it and expose the 9 and 5.

pj
chgo
 
This is great! I don't play one-pocket and don't get a chance to see it played, so this is like a learning exercise. I haven't seen any of the replies, but this is my idea. Please feel free to point out my errors in conception.

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Matt_24 said:
From what I can tell the six looks bankable. I would bank that ball back to your side with right english leaving the cue ball on the rail above the side pocket. Sorry...don't know how to use these tables yet.
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Great, a shot that nobody else saw! That's the kind of creativity I'm looking for.

But it doesn't look like the cue ball is safe anywhere on her side of the table because of the 10.

pj
chgo
 
Hey, Wei. Yeah, I'm kind of a category 3 player myself, but I'd worry about the cue ball getting tangled up with all those balls careening around down there below the stack and blowing my chances with her right out of the gate. LOL.

I really like these "what if" scenarios on your great new table. I'll be submitting more when I have time, but work is crazy right now.

pj
chgo
 
wayne said:
You are lying (about seeing that shot on video 100 times). The first statement is false. There are many situations where the best move is to duck to the wrong side of the stack although not the best option usually, however, the move here is not even to the wrong side but into the stack which is completely different.

You have not seen that shot on video 100 times. Set the shot up and shoot it and see the results. Freezing up against the 10 is vv difficult. I have seen many poor players try to get behind the 10 and the usual result is a scratch for some reason. I think I saw a video of Pagulayan recently that someone posted and he tried a similar touch shot and he scratched.

If the balls were laying out a lot further and there was a natural angle and the cueball wasn't below the balls then I might agree with you but very, very few one pocket players have the ability to execute your shot (a few inches from the rail, jacked up, drawing the ball softly "yeah right").
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Actually, wayne you are showing your lack of ability every time you call this a draw shot.

I've already said it's a stun shot accomplished with a just above center shot.

No wonder you couldn't play the shot well. You didn't even know HOW to play the shot.

Don't worry about it, man. It won't be the first time a lesser skilled player criticizes me through lack of knowledge, and it certainly won't be the last.

Russ
 
Thanks for the thoughts, senor - that's what I wanted to hear about.

I like the fact that you prioritize: (1) what's easiest? (2) what's safest? (3) what's most productive? And I like the reminder to look at all the possibilities before making a decision. We too often focus on the obvious and miss the better shot.

pj
chgo
 
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