The importance of a smooth cueing action

It's true that the CB is only affected by the tip's angle/speed/position AND it's true that stroke technique is important to achieve that. I don't know where you get the idea that anybody disagrees. I've heard it said many times by "physics guys" and others.

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
It's true that the CB is only affected by the tip's angle/speed/position AND it's true that stroke technique is important to achieve that. I don't know where you get the idea that anybody disagrees. I've heard it said many times by "physics guys" and others.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...

I totally agree with you, Pat. You, Dr. Dave, Scott, I, and many others have said the same things for years. I really don't know where they get their ideas from, but they sure seem to be biased and take every opportunity to knock the science of the game instead of just reading what is written and learning from it. :confused:
 
Straightpool_99 said:
People frequently underestimate the value of a smooth cue action, and with the physics guys trying to undercut conventional pool knowledge I thought I'd make a case for stroking smoothness. Of course the usual suspects will be along shortly shouting about "only the speed of the cue matters" etc..I made this post specifically to correct what I feel is deliberate misinformation! Sure, from the standpoint of the ball it doesn't matter how the cue got where it is at the time of impact (only speed and placement), but for the player there is a huge difference. You will potentially avoid huge and common pitfalls in the stroke, including snatching, having the backstroke and forward stroke on different planes, twisting and all manner of uglyness just by striving to to start extremely slow and build speed as steadily and as slowly as the shot possibly allows you to! Because of the slow start you get a lot more feedback from your arm and hand as to the direction and speed of the cue! By striving to be "right" the bookworm types (and I admit I am one of them, just not in this context) are throwing a huge baby out with the bathwater.

What is a smooth stroke exactly? IMHO a smoth stroke is one that starts slowly (and I find that the start is the most important part) and picks up speed at a steady rate. The slow gain in speed helps keep the cue online as well as helping speed control, so there is a double benefit. The sensation of making contact with the cueball (especially on the slow to medium shots) should be one of pushing the ball rather than hitting it. If you have a phenolic tip, that will be difficult to feel, but with ordinary hard leather it is still possible to feel it.

Pool skill as we all know consists of many small revelations that build on each other. I would have to say though, that the day I started truely stroking the ball smoothly was the day I was no longer a C player. A lot has happened since then, but I still think I'd be nowhere near my current level (which admittedly is unimpressive compared to many on here) if my stroke hadn't been smooth. The stroke is still a work in progress for me (as for most of us I suspect), but I find that it can never be too smooth, and that improvement is always possible. For instance I have a problem when I use pivot systems, in keeping my stroke smooth and well timed, which proves that proper body alignment is key in helping the cue action stay smooth (at least for me).

There was a video of Cicero Murphy on youtube that the Accu Stats folks took down and I can't find any other besides old footage that is too grainy. Too bad as I thought his was the smoothest stroke of all time. Anyway, Stephen Lee IMHO had the smoothest stroke in snooker:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HZa2Eku5-c
Click to expand...

Care to give some examples of the physics guys undercutting conventional pool knowledge?
 
Straightpool_99 said:
There was a video of Cicero Murphy on youtube that the Accu Stats folks took down and I can't find any other besides old footage that is too grainy.
Click to expand...
SP99, Here’s a one minute clip showing Cisero’s stroke and his ultra-long pauses on a few Straight Pool shots around 1995 as he works his end pattern getting good on a break ball:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IqA1LWgdwU

And here’s Cisero in 16 minutes of Straight Pool against Mike Zuglan in 1992. Besides Cisero's beautiful stroke, you’ll also like, and benefit from, the long and informative safety battle seen within this video clip:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxF-QUwwrLI&feature=youtu.be

Don’t know if you’ve ever heard the following wonderful anecdote about Cisero’s great dry wit:

A pool buddy came bouncing into Cisero’s home room waving a new bit of US currency and saying “Hey Cis, have ya seen the new hundred dollar bill they just came out with?”

Cisero replied,”Man, I ain’t ever seen the old one.”

Arnaldo
 
Straightpool_99 said:
People frequently underestimate the value of a smooth cue action, and with the physics guys trying to undercut conventional pool knowledge I thought I'd make a case for stroking smoothness. Of course the usual suspects will be along shortly shouting about "only the speed of the cue matters" etc..I made this post specifically to correct what I feel is deliberate misinformation! Sure, from the standpoint of the ball it doesn't matter how the cue got where it is at the time of impact (only speed and placement), but for the player there is a huge difference. You will potentially avoid huge and common pitfalls in the stroke, including snatching, having the backstroke and forward stroke on different planes, twisting and all manner of uglyness just by striving to to start extremely slow and build speed as steadily and as slowly as the shot possibly allows you to! Because of the slow start you get a lot more feedback from your arm and hand as to the direction and speed of the cue! By striving to be "right" the bookworm types (and I admit I am one of them, just not in this context) are throwing a huge baby out with the bathwater.

What is a smooth stroke exactly? IMHO a smoth stroke is one that starts slowly (and I find that the start is the most important part) and picks up speed at a steady rate. The slow gain in speed helps keep the cue online as well as helping speed control, so there is a double benefit. The sensation of making contact with the cueball (especially on the slow to medium shots) should be one of pushing the ball rather than hitting it. If you have a phenolic tip, that will be difficult to feel, but with ordinary hard leather it is still possible to feel it.

Pool skill as we all know consists of many small revelations that build on each other. I would have to say though, that the day I started truely stroking the ball smoothly was the day I was no longer a C player. A lot has happened since then, but I still think I'd be nowhere near my current level (which admittedly is unimpressive compared to many on here) if my stroke hadn't been smooth. The stroke is still a work in progress for me (as for most of us I suspect), but I find that it can never be too smooth, and that improvement is always possible. For instance I have a problem when I use pivot systems, in keeping my stroke smooth and well timed, which proves that proper body alignment is key in helping the cue action stay smooth (at least for me).

There was a video of Cicero Murphy on youtube that the Accu Stats folks took down and I can't find any other besides old footage that is too grainy. Too bad as I thought his was the smoothest stroke of all time. Anyway, Stephen Lee IMHO had the smoothest stroke in snooker:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HZa2Eku5-c
Click to expand...

:thumbup2:

I think there are more than a few that don't seem to have an understanding of what it is to 'feel' the cue ball.

It may very well be that many are using a stroke & connection to the cue that is simply not conducive with allowing them to be able to feel the ball.

As you said, & I agree, when one can feel the cue ball is when one can really start to improve.

I think it is very much like in Golf. There are those that hit at the golf ball & then there are those that send the club head through the golf ball. Generally speaking, those that send the club head through the golf ball are generally the better players over those that hit at the golf ball.

I think that is a good analogy to playing the cue sports.

Sometimes the smallest differences in the world are the ones that are the most truly significant.

Best to You, Sir, & All,
Rick
 
Straightpool_99 said:
Ok. I wrote this thread right now, because as we are having this conversation the same guys are trying to write the bible on pool mechanics. Which is commendable, but I completely disagree with many of their "axioms"...

Imagine if you were starting out as a player and the first thing you read were the words: "Smothness of stroke is unimportant, all that matters is the point at which the cue contacts the ball and the speed." Then the second sentence would be "The fewer moving parts in your stroke, the better so don't move your elbow or your wrist". Training with those two principles, what kind of player would you become? I won't rule out that some very talented players would either work out that this is crap themselves, or somehow manage to circumvent the disadvantages they would face with such an approach. But for a large number of players this would mean banging away with no feel and a jerky stroke.
Click to expand...

You aren't understanding what is being said. All the cb cares about is what speed, at what angle, and where it is hit. That is true. However, that does not mean in any sense that smoothness of stroke does not matter at all. It does matter, because without it, one is not likely to hit the cb where they intend to. Proper delivery of the cue is of utmost importance so that one actually hits where and how they intend to.

As far as the fewer moving parts the better, yes, that also is true. Again, though, that does not mean only one moving part as you stated. Every instructor out there has talked about the importance of the wrist and grip.

As to the example of the fewer moving parts the better, and still getting any needed action on the cb, Judd Trump is a prime example. In one of his videos, he draws ten feet from ten feet away without moving anything but his forearm and wrist. You can also look at most of the pros. Most of them don't drop the elbow before contact with the cb, but do drop after contact. Some quite a bit of a drop afterwards. But, that is after the cb is gone.
 
Thank you for your post @straightpool. I have been playing golf for 40 years and was very good at one time and started playing more pool a few years ago after my shoulders started bothering me.

I use allot of my golf swing & putting stroke thoughts and motion when playing pool. In particular putting. Smooth take away, stay down, head still, smooth follow 'ker plunk'.

I shoot better pool when I slow my stroke down a bit which I do not do enough. When I get a run, nervous or wound up I know I start taking it away too fast and then I am not fluid but 'jabbing' like when you get the 'yips' and what game I have gets very inconsistent.

I believe it is the little things like your post that help remind me and perhaps others get more feel, control and confidence which helps with consistency and a better game.

Thanks again,

-Davekat
 
Straightpool_99 said:
People frequently underestimate the value of a smooth cue action, and with the physics guys trying to undercut conventional pool knowledge I thought I'd make a case for stroking smoothness. Of course the usual suspects will be along shortly shouting about "only the speed of the cue matters" etc..I made this post specifically to correct what I feel is deliberate misinformation! Sure, from the standpoint of the ball it doesn't matter how the cue got where it is at the time of impact (only speed and placement), but for the player there is a huge difference. You will potentially avoid huge and common pitfalls in the stroke, including snatching, having the backstroke and forward stroke on different planes, twisting and all manner of uglyness just by striving to to start extremely slow and build speed as steadily and as slowly as the shot possibly allows you to! Because of the slow start you get a lot more feedback from your arm and hand as to the direction and speed of the cue! By striving to be "right" the bookworm types (and I admit I am one of them, just not in this context) are throwing a huge baby out with the bathwater.

What is a smooth stroke exactly? IMHO a smoth stroke is one that starts slowly (and I find that the start is the most important part) and picks up speed at a steady rate. The slow gain in speed helps keep the cue online as well as helping speed control, so there is a double benefit. The sensation of making contact with the cueball (especially on the slow to medium shots) should be one of pushing the ball rather than hitting it. If you have a phenolic tip, that will be difficult to feel, but with ordinary hard leather it is still possible to feel it.

Pool skill as we all know consists of many small revelations that build on each other. I would have to say though, that the day I started truely stroking the ball smoothly was the day I was no longer a C player. A lot has happened since then, but I still think I'd be nowhere near my current level (which admittedly is unimpressive compared to many on here) if my stroke hadn't been smooth. The stroke is still a work in progress for me (as for most of us I suspect), but I find that it can never be too smooth, and that improvement is always possible. For instance I have a problem when I use pivot systems, in keeping my stroke smooth and well timed, which proves that proper body alignment is key in helping the cue action stay smooth (at least for me).

There was a video of Cicero Murphy on youtube that the Accu Stats folks took down and I can't find any other besides old footage that is too grainy. Too bad as I thought his was the smoothest stroke of all time. Anyway, Stephen Lee IMHO had the smoothest stroke in snooker:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HZa2Eku5-c
Click to expand...

Nice post SP99. Thanks.
It's funny, just Friday I was playing a long time friend of mine and I was watching him striking the QB. In between racks I said "Bob, your hitting the QB and not pushing it."
I went on further to say, we all know that the tip of the cue is only in contact with the QB for about .001 of a second but that's not what you feel in your grip hand. In you grip hand you will feel that you are pushing the QB, the tip of the cue will feel like its glued to the QB. In other words, you shoot pool with your grip hand (feeling), the cue just so happens to be between your grip hand (feeling) and the QB. I try to focus on pushing the QB in with my grip hand.

Well, after that Bob started playing real well. I was happy that I could help an old friend. :)

Thanks again.

John
 
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Straightpool_99 said:
Imagine if you were starting out as a player and the first thing you read were the words: "Smothness of stroke is unimportant, all that matters is the point at which the cue contacts the ball and the speed." Then the second sentence would be "The fewer moving parts in your stroke, the better so don't move your elbow or your wrist".
Click to expand...
i don't recall anybody saying those things. Sounds to me like the "problem" is you misunderstanding.

Anyway, aside from blaming others for your misunderstanding, your points about technique are (mostly) good. If you had just tried to make them without the griping we'd be talking about pool technique rather than posting technique.

pj
chgo
 
Straightpool_99 said:
...Pool skill as we all know consists of many small revelations that build on each other. I would have to say though, that the day I started truely stroking the ball smoothly was the day I was no longer a C player.
Click to expand...

I think this is close to my opinions on the stroke and how it is defined by a portion of the posting membership on this forum. I'd add that while the ongoing discussion on fundamentals is important for a percentage of the lurkers, it's not what the advanced players should obsess about.

Since there are all different levels of players reading this forum, a case should be made to promote a basic understanding of what it takes to achieve all the necessary components of a reliable stroke. That being said, as a player develops this consistent stroke, the discussion should move toward understanding more advanced techniques which are not taught at the beginner or intermediate levels.

These advanced examinations of stroking and techniques should not be limited by discussions about cuing fundamentals reserved for lower level players. After the science is given, the player should start to develop creative abilities and expand their techniques with their advanced knowledge and understanding of what they're doing.

It's probably not possible to get a discussion going on this forum going without a helpful poster or two to correct all other posters. A suggestion would be to evaluate the posts and understand what level of players are posting before offering a blanket statement about the pool stroke. If it's an advanced discussion, parroting basic techniques is probably not on point for the conversation.

Best,
Mike
 
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