The importance of a smooth cueing action

ENGLISH! said:
I'm sorry to hear about the loss of your natural area. If you can play that course, I'd suggest that you do. I bet there are trees & water spots that will bring back memories.

I'd ask, not for my sake, but for the sake of the youngsters, that you not cease from posting. They need to hear from both sides so as to at least have a choice.

Best,
Rick
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That's your whole problem Rick. You are constantly "taking sides", and no matter what is actually posted, you are automatically against it just because of who said it. Then you and Mikjary always have to start with your degradation of "the other side" because that is all you have to argue with.

Ever notice how much praise Scott, Randy, and Dr. Dave get on here for their private lessons? A LOT! What Pat and I state on here is at least 90% the same things they teach in private. Yet, they won't post it on here because of guys like you and Mikjary. They won't deal with you on here. Stan tried, and you ran him off. Blackjack tried, and guys like you ran him off. You ran me off of here in the past.

Yes, the forums would be a lot better of if those of you that can't read anything without your biases would just leave. You aren't here to learn anything, just argue. It is very sad.
 
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Neil said:
That's your whole problem Rick. You are constantly "taking sides", and no matter what is actually posted, you are automatically against it just because of who said it. Then you and Mikjary always have to start with your degradation of "the other side" because that is all you have to argue with.

Ever notice how much praise Scott, Randy, and Dr. Dave get on here for their private lessons? A LOT! What Pat and I state on here is at least 90% the same things they teach in private. Yet, they won't post it on here because of guys like you and Mikjary. They won't deal with you on here. Stan tried, and you ran him off. Blackjack tried, and guys like you ran him off. You ran me off of here in the past.

Yes, the forums would be a lot better of if those of you that can't read anything without your biases would just leave. You aren't here to learn anything, just argue. It is very sad.
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Straightpool_99 said:
You know what, I think maybe I will. I have a friend that's been pestering me for years about going golfing with him. Silly to hold grudges about things that happened years ago. I'm calling him tomorrow, I have a feeling it's one of the best ideas I've had in a while. Maybe I can finally convince him to try some indoor golf too...golf, on the snooker table ,that is. I wasn't going to post anymore, but I wanted to let you know that you may have created a new hopeless golf addict..unless I give up on the first day, lol. Something good came out of this thread after all, at least for me.

Changing my password now to a lame pasword I'll have forgotten by tomorrow, best way of leaving, I'm told. We can't all get our posts erased like Barton. I did manually delete a lot of my posts some time ago, what a stupid, vain thing that was to do, lol. The best part was that nobody even noticed, :lol:, and I actually returned to post again:rolleyes:. I must be a masochist or something... :speechless:

For all his craziness Barton was a pretty entertaining fellow. I liked him alot, and should have gotten out when he did. He understood that in the long run, the forum will break you down. So maybe he was the smart one after all.

Straightpool_99 logging out, not playing pool tonight, going golfing tomorrow instead. I'm Psyched!:smile::thumbup:
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Sorry to see you go from here but glad to hear about the golf. Try to keep the ball dry & out of the shade. But most of all have fun & enjoy any memories that you find.

Best Wishes,
Rick
 
Just one important word and then everything is going to be clear:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
The key word is WENDY:):):)
 
Straightpool_99 said:
You know what, I think maybe I will. I have a friend that's been pestering me for years about going golfing with him. Silly to hold grudges about things that happened years ago. I'm calling him tomorrow, I have a feeling it's one of the best ideas I've had in a while. Maybe I can finally convince him to try some indoor golf too...golf, on the snooker table ,that is. I wasn't going to post anymore, but I wanted to let you know that you may have created a new hopeless golf addict..unless I give up on the first day, lol. Something good came out of this thread after all, at least for me.

Changing my password now to a lame pasword I'll have forgotten by tomorrow, best way of leaving, I'm told. We can't all get our posts erased like Barton. I did manually delete a lot of my posts some time ago, what a stupid, vain thing that was to do, lol. The best part was that nobody even noticed, :lol:, and I actually returned to post again:rolleyes:. I must be a masochist or something... :speechless:

For all his craziness Barton was a pretty entertaining fellow. I liked him alot, and should have gotten out when he did. He understood that in the long run, the forum will break you down. So maybe he was the smart one after all.

Straightpool_99 logging out, not playing pool tonight, going golfing tomorrow instead. I'm Psyched!:smile::thumbup:
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Crap.:mad:
Sorry to hear your leaving. I have always enjoyed your posts and have learned from them.

Take Care :frown:

John
 
One Pocket John said:
Nice post SP99. Thanks.
It's funny, just Friday I was playing a long time friend of mine and I was watching him striking the QB. In between racks I said "Bob, your hitting the QB and not pushing it."
I went on further to say, we all know that the tip of the cue is only in contact with the QB for about .001 of a second but that's not what you feel in your grip hand. In you grip hand you will feel that you are pushing the QB, the tip of the cue will feel like its glued to the QB. In other words, you shoot pool with your grip hand (feeling), the cue just so happens to be between your grip hand (feeling) and the QB. I try to focus on pushing the QB in with my grip hand.

Well, after that Bob started playing real well. I was happy that I could help an old friend. :)

Thanks again.

John
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Hi John,

I think that is what I was trying to relay with the Golf analogy. Some hit at the golf ball while others send the club head through the golf ball.

Those that send it through the ball, generally are the better players.

The smallest of differences in the world are sometimes the most significant.

Best 2 You & Yours, Stay Well & Shoot Well,
Rick
 
Straightpool_99 said:
You know what, I think maybe I will. I have a friend that's been pestering me for years about going golfing with him. Silly to hold grudges about things that happened years ago. I'm calling him tomorrow, I have a feeling it's one of the best ideas I've had in a while. Maybe I can finally convince him to try some indoor golf too...golf, on the snooker table ,that is. I wasn't going to post anymore, but I wanted to let you know that you may have created a new hopeless golf addict..unless I give up on the first day, lol. Something good came out of this thread after all, at least for me.

Changing my password now to a lame pasword I'll have forgotten by tomorrow, best way of leaving, I'm told. We can't all get our posts erased like Barton. I did manually delete a lot of my posts some time ago, what a stupid, vain thing that was to do, lol. The best part was that nobody even noticed, :lol:, and I actually returned to post again:rolleyes:. I must be a masochist or something... :speechless:

For all his craziness Barton was a pretty entertaining fellow. I liked him alot, and should have gotten out when he did. He understood that in the long run, the forum will break you down. So maybe he was the smart one after all.

Straightpool_99 logging out, not playing pool tonight, going golfing tomorrow instead. I'm Psyched!:smile::thumbup:
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Try taking a three month break. I did, logging in only twice, to respond to a pm about a cue and when the room I used to play in closed. That was the only thread I posted in for some time.
 
Many good great contributors on this site, even the one I don't like, and I am sure the feeling is mutual. I have said it before; if we spent a week together we might find out we are friends

The common bond we have in this cult game does not go away. Passion and opinions sometimes get the best of us us, not all, just some. As much as we may disagree with another it's always good to keep an open mind and explore other avenues.

My take on pool.
Everything, I mean everything is easy, piece of cake easy, simple as simple can be, idiot simple. A blind monkey can instruct the basic fundamentals of pool, how to stand, the elbow, grips, eyes. Etc. Anyone can be Martin Scorsese with a video camera.

All the fundamentals…..easy, stupid easy


Aiming Systems…freaking easy, you have got to be kidding me with all the technical crap

Pocketing…..easy

Game play…easy

Safety …easy


Math Systems…easy

I think I made my point; it's all freakin easy, EXCEPT TWO THINGS.

1) THE STRAIGHT STROKE

2) STROKE TECHNIQUE

I believe the only way to master anything is through repetitive practice.
A repetitive stroke in pool is a must...See # 1 and # 2

There are many ways to deliver a pool stroke, just watch all the champions in history and you will see how many of them, if not all, use techniques that are not taught by most instructors and are nowhere to be found in print.

They have mastered these strokes through repetitive practice; many of them also use the same strokes and techniques, these techniques are not in books. One very noticeable technique would be clearing the cue on a draw stroke, it's not always cleared up but at times it is. Earl does it, Efren does it, the books and instructors say it's wrong, I don't think so. I do it, so it's right for me. There are other techniques better left for another time.

Time to play baseball.
A pitcher may throw a curve ball 3 different ways, and all three ways he has mastered through repetitive practice. He may use 3 different arm angles, wrist snap, and finger placement, whatever. He is getting different movement and results from one stroke that’s in the book, the curve ball. I am sure I will get abuse over the curve ball analogy, it's alright, everyone is entitled to their opinion.

CJ Wiley posted about cocking the wrist and uncoiling. If anyone thinks that is a joke I recommend you take up another game, again not in books and taught by your everyday instructors. There are many ways and techniques to deliver a stroke, grip pressure, choking, forward vertical position, tip up, tip down, sliding and a few more to be named at a later date.

At the SBE I was watching Orcullo practicing this shot and technique.
He was shooting a 7 ft straight shot and wanted the cue ball to die off the object ball. He was hitting the cue ball on the very bottom, extreme bottom. The cue ball takes back spin then begins to roll over on itself. When you know this technique and master it you have a very valuable tool in your tool box. I was explaining it to my wife what he was doing and she caught on right away, she eventually saw the cue ball roll over. This is another technique I have written about on here and received some negative comments. I am ok with the comments because I use the technique and I know it works for me when I need it. Again it's just a repetitive stroke mastered through repetitive practice.

It's all about the cue ball. To master the cue ball you need to have straight and smooth delivery. Master the stroke technique, plain and simple.
Everything else is second place and a monkey can teach it. Play through your core and find your natural, you may become a complete player.

Hope you enjoyed the long winded post, I cut it short by 10,000 words.
Sincerely:SS
 
Thank you

EDIT: Thanks for clearing that up @Smoothstroke

Wow that turned interesting. I carried a 3-5 handicap for years without any formal golf instruction of all the BS that revolves around paid lessons, swing coaches and capitalist propaganda. However, I did invest in very good equipment which has always been important to me no matter what I am involved in. Could I have gone scratch ? Probably, but there were more important things in my life than living at the golf course.

I played with better golfers, listened, watched and learned. After ALLOT of practice and some years I was smoking it down the fairway and had a very good short game. As I am getting older and not teeing it much I am naturally applying what I learned playing golf to my sketchy pool game. There are allot of similarities especially with the tables I play on.

I am sorry you are leaving Straightpool. Please enjoy the 'fresh clean air' that golf allows and thank you again for your help and reinforcement with slowing my sometimes quick, inefficient pool stroke. I hope that you remember your password someday.

All the best,

-Davekat
 
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Neil said:
That's typical you Mike. Accuse me of all the very things that you have done in your post, and I didn't do. You are a good student of Rick's. Make stuff up and then accuse someone else of saying them while calling them all sorts of names. The very thing you say you don't do.
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Psychoanalysis is another of your weak suits.

Try getting over yourself and thinking you know it all. You must, because anyone with a different opinion you jump all over. I never attacked, yet you sure did. What a hypocrite you are! Your extreme bias against actual knowledge is what keeps you from ever actually learning anything and keeps you searching for that magic pill.
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Unlike you, I discuss my opinions and don't tell people they're mistaken. I was discussing something with PJ and you replied, with no purpose other than to tell me you were right, again.

I have zero bias against knowledge presented by a credible source...not a self styled pool professor. Magic pill? You mean like mystical, mythical, imaginary, etc.? free-party-smileys-243.gif You use those words quite a bit. Ridicule is a weak sauce defense and beneath a seer such as yourself, oh great one.

I guess we should all just listen to someone that thinks that skill level matters when it comes to stating things, but your own skill level is even lower than mine, so what are you then, a C player? Why then should anyone listen to you? Or to Rick, who others have seen him play and stated that he can barely run out a rack when it is wide open?
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OK You got me. I'll take the 7 and the smash. That should be easy for a basement champ. But please, no bar tables. A very tight big table would be more fun. C players can't make a ball on those.

Another weak attempt at being a somebody; it "seems" to be your goal, but clown is all you can muster. You bait me in the hopes of getting a rise so you can cry to Dave Wilson. Pathetic, even from you.

But, like Rick, never discuss anything, just attack those who disagree with you. I guess only your opinion on here carries any weight, huh?
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I believe it was you who came after me in this thread. And you bit off more than you could chew. So, resort to baiting and ridicule, member size, or whatever your wimpy little heart desires. LOL

Best,
Mike
 
Straightpool_99 said:
You know what, I think maybe I will. I have a friend that's been pestering me for years about going golfing with him. Silly to hold grudges about things that happened years ago. I'm calling him tomorrow, I have a feeling it's one of the best ideas I've had in a while. Maybe I can finally convince him to try some indoor golf too...golf, on the snooker table ,that is. I wasn't going to post anymore, but I wanted to let you know that you may have created a new hopeless golf addict..unless I give up on the first day, lol. Something good came out of this thread after all, at least for me.

Changing my password now to a lame pasword I'll have forgotten by tomorrow, best way of leaving, I'm told. We can't all get our posts erased like Barton. I did manually delete a lot of my posts some time ago, what a stupid, vain thing that was to do, lol. The best part was that nobody even noticed, :lol:, and I actually returned to post again:rolleyes:. I must be a masochist or something... :speechless:

For all his craziness Barton was a pretty entertaining fellow. I liked him alot, and should have gotten out when he did. He understood that in the long run, the forum will break you down. So maybe he was the smart one after all.

Straightpool_99 logging out, not playing pool tonight, going golfing tomorrow instead. I'm Psyched!:smile::thumbup:
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You can't let these forums take ahold of you. Many posters here are quite a bit bolder than they are in person. Your opinion here is as important as the next person's.

Understand, there are many posters on here trying to upset other posters. I deal with it and know it's all done from behind the keyboard. I enjoy reading your posts as I'm sure, others do, too. Don't give up just yet. :thumbup:

Best,
Mike
 
Mikjary said:
Psychoanalysis is another of your weak suits.



Unlike you, I discuss my opinions and don't tell people they're mistaken. I was discussing something with PJ and you replied, with no purpose other than to tell me you were right, again.

I have zero bias against knowledge presented by a credible source...not a self styled pool professor. Magic pill? You mean like mystical, mythical, imaginary, etc.? View attachment 382136 You use those words quite a bit. Ridicule is a weak sauce defense and beneath a seer such as yourself, oh great one.



OK You got me. I'll take the 7 and the smash. That should be easy for a basement champ. But please, no bar tables. A very tight big table would be more fun. C players can't make a ball on those.

Another weak attempt at being a somebody; it "seems" to be your goal, but clown is all you can muster. You bait me in the hopes of getting a rise so you can cry to Dave Wilson. Pathetic, even from you.



I believe it was you who came after me in this thread. And you bit off more than you could chew. So, resort to baiting and ridicule, member size, or whatever your wimpy little heart desires. LOL

Best,
Mike
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You don't read too well, do you? Still twisting things just like your shadow Rick does. Way to destroy another thread. Hope you are happy now.
 
Straightpool_99 said:
I'll give only one (for the sake of time). "The fewer moving parts, the better -philosophy of stroke". This is complete horseshit. Even if you could produce just one elite player that strokes the ball like that (I can't think of any right now), it would be easy to produce 15 others that don't for every one of those. This is not because they are stupid or ignorant. The fact is that the pool stroke (that has ample power and control) is rather complex. Nearly all elite players will have some sort of wrist/finger action and you will rarely see a pro with a compete limp wrist and stationary elbow. You don't have to take my word for it (I don't suspect you will of course, but I'm talking generally here), you can try it for yourself. Lock your elbow completely through the stroke at medium/high speed shots and have a dead wrist. See what kind of touch you can get with a stroke like that. I'd be surprised if anyone at a decent level will find this preferable to a more complex stroke with wrist action.

While I'm on the subject, let's talk about locking up body parts and what that would entail. Imagine, if you will, that you could lock your body in a posture where every part was fixed and the cue swung in a perfect arc etc.Every scientific pool players wet dream, right? Now I want you to imagine how much work it would be to align yourself perfectly on each shot (which you would have to do in such a case). The footwork alone would give you nightmares. The fact is that some looseness in the bodyparts is necessary to give the required accuracy without using 1 hour to align yourself. In this perfect locked state there would be no last minute correction "saves" either if you were ever so slightly off line. That happens more in real life than most people think. This is an extreme example, but I use it to illustrate a point. As far as the human body is concerned (fine motor skills) relaxed=accurate. Any kind of effort to lock up your elbow will cause havoc in your fine motor skills in the hand and forarm.

Another thing that is forgotten is that the hand, and small muscles are more precise than large muscles like the bicep etc. You don't see people trying to paint pictures attaching a brush to their forearms, above the wrist. The small movements of the hand, guides the cue, along with the wrist.
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I agree with everything you say about the stoking motion, but the part in red I am in disagreement with. Just look at all the great players you make reference to and you will see that, although their stances may vary considerably from one to the other, they are all extremely consistant with their stance. Only when the lay of the balls dictates an unusual stance will they deviate from their main stance, and great players try their best whenever possible to position the CB in a spot where they don't have to take a specialty stance - usually near the center of the table.

First of all, it's not a "science" thing to have a consistant and stable stance with perfect alignment, it's a "just makes real good sense" thing. I think the reason why so many folks glom onto every aiming system under the sun is that they lack a consistant PSR that leads to the correct alignment. Once you learn how to step into the shot with your back foot on the shot line, "locking" the legs and body into a stable stance just sort of happens by itself. The single biggest thing I learned from expert instruction was that I wasn't stepping into the shot properly. Still working on that.

Yes, the stroke is king IMHO, but first you have to stand correctly or you will never be able to swing your arm smoothly to begin with. I work on my stroking techniques all the time, but even a poor stroke will make the ball if your alignment is perfect. Or put another way, once you are perfectly aligned, you almost have to work to make a poor stroke.
 
SmoothStroke said:
A pitcher may throw a curve ball 3 different ways, and all three ways he has mastered through repetitive practice. He may use 3 different arm angles, wrist snap, and finger placement, whatever. He is getting different movement and results from one stroke that’s in the book, the curve ball. I am sure I will get abuse over the curve ball analogy, it's alright, everyone is entitled to their opinion.
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Pitching is an art that is reside in the fingers (grip). Yes, you have to have the right body mechanics to deliver the ball at sufficient velocity, but after that, you get batters out with your grip.

I saw a video analysis of over a thousand of Mariano Rivera's pitches. They showed the path of each pitch, from the time it left his hand to the time it went past the plate. Every pitch passed though a very narrow zone at the midway point, but by the time they were at the plate they were sprayed all over the place.

All of these pitches varied in their delivery only by the amount and placement of finger pressure. The poor batters never had a chance. Every delivery looked the same until the ball was past the halfway point. Hitters had to pick up the correct pitch and pull the trigger from less than 30 feet away... with the ball still moving over 90 MPH.
 
Dave-Kat said:
EDIT: Thanks for clearing that up @Smoothstroke

Wow that turned interesting. I carried a 3-5 handicap for years without any formal golf instruction of all the BS that revolves around paid lessons, swing coaches and capitalist propaganda. However, I did invest in very good equipment which has always been important to me no matter what I am involved in. Could I have gone scratch ? Probably, but there were more important things in my life than living at the golf course.

I played with better golfers, listened, watched and learned. After ALLOT of practice and some years I was smoking it down the fairway and had a very good short game. As I am getting older and not teeing it much I am naturally applying what I learned playing golf to my sketchy pool game. There are allot of similarities especially with the tables I play on.

I am sorry you are leaving Straightpool. Please enjoy the 'fresh clean air' that golf allows and thank you again for your help and reinforcement with slowing my sometimes quick, inefficient pool stroke. I hope that you remember your password someday.

All the best,

-Davekat
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Thanks Dave, I will take that as a compliment
My very long post was not meant to be, my fingers kept going.
It was meant to and I hope it did compliment and assist in what Straightpool had to say in his original post before it gets sidetracked or ripped apart.

He is a nice poster and should keep posting. I understand how he feels as I am feeling the same about this place, and I also love 14.1 so he can't be all that bad of a guy.

When I see posts about stroke my eyes light up, I am very big on stroke technique, straight and smooth delivery being at the top of the food chain. I don't care what you know,who you know, how you stand, your eyes,aiming system, all the easy stuff,without that delivery and all the variations of it you are only 1/2 a player at best.

Sincerely:SS
 
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