The inevitable result of "excessive skill" in a handicapped league

Well 90% of the people in the APA don't know what's happening on the pool table let alone around the league. I may have exaggerated about that being our LO's sole mission in life, but this person has been quoted on many occasions saying if they raised so and so, maybe they will make a new team.
I apologize for being so opinionated. I am still grieving the impending closure of our last pool hall with real sized tables and I blame league pool for part of the reason it's not going to survive. Bar table pool is something I hate. I was one ball on the break away from taking SVB hill hill at the windy city a few years back. On a big table I would get smoked, so to me bar table pool isn't real pool. Again, I apologize for venting in your thread!
 
Well 90% of the people in the APA don't know what's happening on the pool table let alone around the league. I may have exaggerated about that being our LO's sole mission in life, but this person has been quoted on many occasions saying if they raised so and so, maybe they will make a new team.
I apologize for being so opinionated. I am still grieving the impending closure of our last pool hall with real sized tables and I blame league pool for part of the reason it's not going to survive. Bar table pool is something I hate. I was one ball on the break away from taking SVB hill hill at the windy city a few years back. On a big table I would get smoked, so to me bar table pool isn't real pool. Again, I apologize for venting in your thread!

No need to apologize, you are just stating an opinion.

If your L.O. is even thinking that (let alone doing it) then you have a right to be pissed. I just think a little competition is in order. Who kows you might either a) start up a better league, or B) force your L.O. to do a better job.

I do agree with you about the bar box tables. In my area, there are very few bar box tables. I play weekly league on 9 foot black crowns that are kept in really good condition.

It sucks that your rooms are closing. I feel for you.

Leagueguy
 
Sometimes it can seem that way, when in reality the operator is just trying to bring skill levels up to par with the rest of the country. I have yet to meet an operator who raises skill levels to split teams. Not saying it couldn't happen somewhere, but in my experience that's an urban legend.

I think it's a shame that folks here complain about the sport dying, all the while trying to tear down the one entity in the sport that has sustained growth for more than thirty years.
 
Let's knock it off with the pop-top "excuses-in-a-can" from APA Corporate

[...]
Sure, I'll answer my questions.

1) Why does the APA have a (team) handicap limit?
Because if we didn't, the strongest players would form super teams and dominate the league until everyone else decided to quit.

Folks:

I normally avoid these APA bashing threads because honestly, gratuitous complaining and whining disgust me. For the same amount of effort that people spend bemoaning the APA, they could be using the vehicle that the APA provides them to record complaints of sandbagging, and actually do something about it. But that's not the issue why I'm responding to "APA Operator's" post. (Speaking of which, that's a funny screenname. Kinda reminds me of the old telephone switchboard days... "Hello, APA Operator... how may I connect your call, please?" :D )

The real reason why I'm responding here, is I FIRMLY and VEHEMENTLY disagree with APA Operator's "excuse-in-a-can" stating the reason why a handicap limit exists is to prevent "super teams" from being built that overrun everybody else. This is corporate "here, give 'em this" drivel that is passed on from L.O. generation to L.O. generation.

I can just envision this fictitious scene, which seems to sum-up the APA-corporate excuse facade:
  1. A crowd is outside the APA headquarters, bashing at the huge steel-reinforced door, picketing and shouting how the "23" handicap limit is such an achilles heel to the enjoyment of the league.
  2. Instead of someone answering the door and opening it, a William F. Buckley or Bill Stein droll voice appears over the door's intercom system, and monotonously gives this "excuse-in-a-can" for the 23 rule -- again, without anyone ever answering the door. And then tells the crowd to go away. "Go away please... go away please... go away please" (in "Bueller... bueller... bueller" style).
The fact is, you can stack a team with the "best" players (which I'm assuming APA Operator means a bunch of 7s [in 8-ball] or 9s [in 9-ball]), but that's no guarantee that they'll win. In fact, most APA 7s (or 9s) that I know, absolutely abhor the idea of being matched up with a 3 or a 4. And team captains know it! I occasionally go to Big Shot Billiards in East Windsor, CT for the Eastern Regionals often, and I walk around, listening to the teams strategizing the matches. There's a trick they call "cutting the 7 off at the knees" -- matching up a strong "3" against the "7" that was just put up by the opposing team. More often than not, the 7 gets killed in this match. He/she gets cut-off at the knees.

And, let's assume worst-case scenario as a hypothetical situation for a moment. Bear with me on this one: "the APA secretly knows the 'Equalizer' handicap system is broken in that it doesn't adequately equalize the difference in skill between, say, a 7 and a 3 [i.e. they think the 7 still has the advantage]." If that's secretly true, why not fix the damn thing?!? Why not introduce a ball spot into the "Equalizer" handicap system? Introduce a ball spot in that system (e.g. "a difference in handicap of two or more between the opposing players" [e.g. a 7 plays a 5] invokes a ball spot for the lower-skill-level player), and you *watch* what happens! It will change the game. Now instead of the "23" rule, teams can stack their team with 7s/9s all they want, but they risk being chopped-off at the knees by this considerable advantage the lower-skill-level player has with this change to the handicapping system. The lower-skill level players will learn how to use the ball spot to their advantage, making sure (in 8-ball) to tie-up the higher-skill-level opponent's category of balls with one of his/her own, and it becomes a different game.

Just in case any of the APA advocates may question my experience in league operations, let me present my credentials. My name is Sean Leinen, and I used to run the Boston Billiards 8-ball and 9-ball leagues for 3 years at a particular Boston Billiards location (the Danbury, CT location -- the largest one), before Boston Billiards closed it in January 2009. Back when I ran that league, we used ball spots to equalize the difference in skill between players. Depending on the difference in skill level between the two opponents, there can be up to a 3 ball spot! (E.g. if a "7" plays a "3", it was a 7 - 3 race with a 3 ball spot for the 3. On the big 9-foot tables, this multi-ball spot system worked out really well, since it took into consideration that the distance on the table itself was a disadvantage for the weaker player. However, on the small barboxes, a single ball spot will do just fine.) I can tell you that when the teams were submitting their scoresheets to me after the matches were over, the lower skill-level players were beating the high skill-level players (and vice-versa) at an equal rate.

I know that the APA is exponentially larger than the Boston Billiards leagues ever were even in their heyday, but guys, come on, fix the system! Isn't the growing rancor outside that huge steel door starting to cause that steel door to rattle off of its hinges?

[...]
It's not rocket science. If you have to penalize a team for excessive skill, logic dictates that you MUST penalize them such that they are no longer competitive. That's the only way the turing machine of the previous paragraph stops.
[...]

APA Operator, the only turing machine is the very one you're offering -- that pop-top "excuse-in-a-can" (being passed out by APA Corporate in huge truckloads) that the "23" rule exists to prevent teams being stacked. From what I've seen and experience (as an L.O.), nothing could be further from the truth. The "cutting the 7 off at the knees" technique is very real and actively used. Don't you think a team "stacked," as you call it, with 7s (or 9s in 9-ball) would be a target that other teams with lower-ranked players would lick their chops over?

All I can say is, if you don't like it, don't play in it. The APA has succesfully built their league to the point where there are over 300k players in it. If it was really that bad, do you think they would have that many players?

Also, I'd like to point out that most of the APA 7's I know HATE playing lower ranks like 2's and 3's. There are a lot of APA teams out there where the high player on the team is a 4. Gee, how much fun would your team of 5 7's have playing against a bunch of 2's and 3's? Who gets to be the "lucky" one that gets to play the 4?

If you really want to play with all your short stop buddies, then play in a non-handicapped league.

Brian

That's exactly right, hence my point/discussion above. "Cutting the 7/9 off at the knees" is a very effective technique, and I think APA corporate knows it. But they continue to airlift and truckload out those huge pallets of pop-top "excuse-in-a-can" to cover up the real reason for why the "23" rules exists: capitalism. Now, there's nothing wrong with capitalism. If the reason for the 23 rule is as we expect, to fragment the team to form new teams (and thus grow the APA), then plainly state that. There's nothing wrong with honesty. Secretly, "we all know" that there's revenue involved, but we also know that the APA strives, at least from the corporate marketing effort (not necessarily at the regional level) to pump more dollars back into the sport with tournament/sponsorship deals, etc.

I think what the APA does in striving to keep pool alive and in the mindset of the general public is laudable. I have no issue with the APA other than the evasive and weasely excuses given for the existence of a particular rule. Be honest/upfront, guys. Stop the excuse facades!

Respectfully,
-Sean
 
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APA-O,
You are correct. As long as you are trying to make the results even for all skill levels, then you DON'T have a "real" pool league. You might as well have a coin flipping contest to distribute the money if you don't want skill to be rewarded.

Why on earth would anyone want to play a "game" or "sport" where skill was not rewarded???? Answer: people want to have the illusion of skill without doing the work to develop it. Too bad that so many leagues and tourneys reward such "players."

Yeah, if you want dead even, flip coins. I agree with you. I never said anybody can make it dead even. I said make the field as level as it can be. That statement followed another statement that you have to cap the skill levels of a team. The inference there is that you can't make it dead even.

On the other hand, if you don't try, you might as well not have handicaps. Sounds to me like handicapped leagues aren't for you, 'cause you're just too good.
 
Why not introduce a ball spot into the "Equalizer" handicap system? Introduce a ball spot in that system (e.g. "a difference in handicap of two or more between the opposing players" [e.g. a 7 plays a 5] invokes a ball spot for the lower-skill-level player), and you *watch* what happens! It will change the game

Sean, while I agree with your assesment that from a 2/3 to a 7, the handicap system may be flawed, (I am a 7 and I kow that I can beat a 3 or 2 easily - it is the 4's I have trouble with because they can run tables), your solution that the APA should introduce a ball spot to their system is laugable at best.

On these forums, the APA supporters (myself being a strong 1) constantly get hammered because of the rules not being "real pool". People ***** and moan that the APA is bastardizing the game becuase it is not open off the break, not call pocket and the fact that you have to mark your pocket.

Your solution to this is to give a ball spot in 8-ball and that in your opinion, that will make the league better.

I can just see it now. All the people who do not play APA will go on and on about how this ball spot is bastardizing the game of "real pool".

While i usually find myself agreeing with the majoroty of your posts, you are way off the mark here.


Leagueguy
 
[*]A crowd is outside the APA headquarters, bashing at the huge steel-reinforced door, picketing and shouting how the "23" handicap limit is such an achilles heel to the enjoyment of the league.
[*]Instead of someone answering the door and opening it, a William F. Buckley or Bill Stein droll voice appears over the door's intercom system, and monotonously gives this "excuse-in-a-can" for the 23 rule -- again, without anyone ever

To be honest, I don't hear very much complaining about the APA handicap system. Most of the complaints I hear are on AZB, and most of the time from people who don't even play APA...

As for the "excuse-in-a-can", I guess I have a different experience in what I have been told. I've been told flat out by APA LO's that the reason it exists is to balance teams to have both high and low skilled players. This is for two reasons. Reason #1 is that it allows the low skilled players to learn from their more skilled teammates, hence the reason why 2's and 3's get 2 time outs per game. Reason #2 is that by having balanced teams you can make a team out of friends and still enjoy playing every week as your lesser skilled players have a chance to match up against other lesser skilled players. This fact keeps people playing in the league and having fun.

Every reason I've seen given is to give the large majority of APA players a fun experience. The percentage of players that are 6's and 7's out of APA's whole is small, and yeah, the APA is right for doing more for the 3's and 4's as they are where the vast majority of their money comes from.

Brian
 
Why not introduce a ball spot into the "Equalizer" handicap system? Introduce a ball spot in that system (e.g. "a difference in handicap of two or more between the opposing players" [e.g. a 7 plays a 5] invokes a ball spot for the lower-skill-level player), and you *watch* what happens! It will change the game

Sean, while I agree with your assesment that from a 2/3 to a 7, the handicap system may be flawed, (I am a 7 and I kow that I can beat a 3 or 2 easily - it is the 4's I have trouble with because they can run tables), your solution that the APA should introduce a ball spot to their system is laugable at best.

On these forums, the APA supporters (myself being a strong 1) constantly get hammered because of the rules not being "real pool". People ***** and moan that the APA is bastardizing the game becuase it is not open off the break, not call pocket and the fact that you have to mark your pocket.

Your solution to this is to give a ball spot in 8-ball and that in your opinion, that will make the league better.

I can just see it now. All the people who do not play APA will go on and on about how this ball spot is bastardizing the game of "real pool".

While i usually find myself agreeing with the majoroty of your posts, you are way off the mark here.

Leagueguy

LeagueGuy:

That was a hypothetical situation, with an example solution, if you'll re-read it more carefully (and don't skim it like you obviously did). I'm a firm believer in not whining or complaining unless you can offer a solution, and even then, dispense with the gratuitous whining. So I offered a sample solution to a hypothetical situation. I even asked you, as the reader, to "bear with me on this one." Remember?

While I laud the APA for keeping pool alive in the amateur arena, and also do something for the pros via tournament/sponsorship deals, there are things they're doing very wrong and turning a blind eye to. It's that old, "hear no evil, see no evil" technique that will eventually catch up with them, and force them, in the future, to address it in a less-than-complimentary setting.

-Sean
 
LeagueGuy:

That was a hypothetical situation, with an example solution, if you'll re-read it more carefully (and don't skim it like you obviously did). I'm a firm believer in not whining or complaining unless you can offer a solution, and even then, dispense with the gratuitous whining. So I offered a sample solution to a hypothetical situation. I even asked you, as the reader, to "bear with me on this one." Remember?

While I laud the APA for keeping pool alive in the amateur arena, and also do something for the pros via tournament/sponsorship deals, there are things they're doing very wrong and turning a blind eye to. It's that old, "hear no evil, see no evil" technique that will eventually catch up with them, and force them, in the future, to address it in a less-than-complimentary setting.

-Sean


Sean,

You are correct. I did not equate the ball spot with your hypothetical solution. My apologies on that.

Leagueguy
 
In reality, all handicap systems are BS. The only reason they exist is to increase player participation (i.e generate revenue). The same holds true in bowling, golf or any other handicap system you can name.

In pool, everyone knows that handicapped money games are done for the same reason, to generate action.

A true test of one's skills will always be one on one.
 
In reality, all handicap systems are BS. The only reason they exist is to increase player participation (i.e generate revenue). The same holds true in bowling, golf or any other handicap system you can name.

.


I don't see that as a bad thing. Do you ?

Many tours handicap entry fees to get lower skilled players to come in in. No one is making money other that the participants.
Many tournaments handicap games to get lower skilled players to come in. No one is making money other than the participants.

I don't see handicaps as a bad thing.

Then again, I am an APA player and most likely a B player at a major event.

Maybe I would think differently if I was a top end money player who was better than 95% of the people that i played against.

Leagueguy

Leagueguy.
 
Folks:

I normally avoid these APA bashing threads because honestly, gratuitous complaining and whining disgust me. For the same amount of effort that people spend bemoaning the APA, they could be using the vehicle that the APA provides them to record complaints of sandbagging, and actually do something about it. But that's not the issue why I'm responding to "APA Operator's" post. (Speaking of which, that's a funny screenname. Kinda reminds me of the old telephone switchboard days... "Hello, APA Operator... how may I connect your call, please?" :D )

The real reason why I'm responding here, is I FIRMLY and VEHEMENTLY disagree with APA Operator's "excuse-in-a-can" stating the reason why a handicap limit exists is to prevent "super teams" from being built that overrun everybody else. This is corporate "here, give 'em this" drivel that is passed on from L.O. generation to L.O. generation.

I can just envision this fictitious scene, which seems to sum-up the APA-corporate excuse facade:
  1. A crowd is outside the APA headquarters, bashing at the huge steel-reinforced door, picketing and shouting how the "23" handicap limit is such an achilles heel to the enjoyment of the league.
  2. Instead of someone answering the door and opening it, a William F. Buckley or Bill Stein droll voice appears over the door's intercom system, and monotonously gives this "excuse-in-a-can" for the 23 rule -- again, without anyone ever answering the door. And then tells the crowd to go away. "Go away please... go away please... go away please" (in "Bueller... bueller... bueller" style).
The fact is, you can stack a team with the "best" players (which I'm assuming APA Operator means a bunch of 7s [in 8-ball] or 9s [in 9-ball]), but that's no guarantee that they'll win. In fact, most APA 7s (or 9s) that I know, absolutely abhor the idea of being matched up with a 3 or a 4. And team captains know it! I occasionally go to Big Shot Billiards in East Windsor, CT for the Eastern Regionals often, and I walk around, listening to the teams strategizing the matches. There's a trick they call "cutting the 7 off at the knees" -- matching up a strong "3" against the "7" that was just put up by the opposing team. More often than not, the 7 gets killed in this match. He/she gets cut-off at the knees.

And, let's assume worst-case scenario as a hypothetical situation for a moment. Bear with me on this one: "the APA secretly knows the 'Equalizer' handicap system is broken in that it doesn't adequately equalize the difference in skill between, say, a 7 and a 3 [i.e. they think the 7 still has the advantage]." If that's secretly true, why not fix the damn thing?!? Why not introduce a ball spot into the "Equalizer" handicap system? Introduce a ball spot in that system (e.g. "a difference in handicap of two or more between the opposing players" [e.g. a 7 plays a 5] invokes a ball spot for the lower-skill-level player), and you *watch* what happens! It will change the game. Now instead of the "23" rule, teams can stack their team with 7s/9s all they want, but they risk being chopped-off at the knees by this considerable advantage the lower-skill-level player has with this change to the handicapping system. The lower-skill level players will learn how to use the ball spot to their advantage, making sure (in 8-ball) to tie-up the higher-skill-level opponent's category of balls with one of his/her own, and it becomes a different game.

Just in case any of the APA advocates may question my experience in league operations, let me present my credentials. My name is Sean Leinen, and I used to run the Boston Billiards 8-ball and 9-ball leagues for 3 years at a particular Boston Billiards location (the Danbury, CT location -- the largest one), before Boston Billiards closed it in January 2009. Back when I ran that league, we used ball spots to equalize the difference in skill between players. Depending on the difference in skill level between the two opponents, there can be up to a 3 ball spot! (E.g. if a "7" plays a "3", it was a 7 - 3 race with a 3 ball spot for the 3. On the big 9-foot tables, this multi-ball spot system worked out really well, since it took into consideration that the distance on the table itself was a disadvantage for the weaker player. However, on the small barboxes, a single ball spot will do just fine.) I can tell you that when the teams were submitting their scoresheets to me after the matches were over, the lower skill-level players were beating the high skill-level players (and vice-versa) at an equal rate.

I know that the APA is exponentially larger than the Boston Billiards leagues ever were even in their heyday, but guys, come on, fix the system! Isn't the growing rancor outside that huge steel door starting to cause that steel door to rattle off of its hinges?



APA Operator, the only turing machine is the very one you're offering -- that pop-top "excuse-in-a-can" (being passed out by APA Corporate in huge truckloads) that the "23" rule exists to prevent teams being stacked. From what I've seen and experience (as an L.O.), nothing could be further from the truth. The "cutting the 7 off at the knees" technique is very real and actively used. Don't you think a team "stacked," as you call it, with 7s (or 9s in 9-ball) would be a target that other teams with lower-ranked players would lick their chops over?



That's exactly right, hence my point/discussion above. "Cutting the 7/9 off at the knees" is a very effective technique, and I think APA corporate knows it. But they continue to airlift and truckload out those huge pallets of pop-top "excuse-in-a-can" to cover up the real reason for why the "23" rules exists: capitalism. Now, there's nothing wrong with capitalism. If the reason for the 23 rule is as we expect, to fragment the team to form new teams (and thus grow the APA), then plainly state that. There's nothing wrong with honesty. Secretly, "we all know" that there's revenue involved, but we also know that the APA strives, at least from the corporate marketing effort (not necessarily at the regional level) to pump more dollars back into the sport with tournament/sponsorship deals, etc.

I think what the APA does in striving to keep pool alive and in the mindset of the general public is laudable. I have no issue with the APA other than the evasive and weasely excuses given for the existence of a particular rule. Be honest/upfront, guys. Stop the excuse facades!

Respectfully,
-Sean

Maaaaybe in 9 ball..... The handicapping in that league is more effective at balancing the opposite ends of the spectrum. (If the team totals were 25 and pushing were allowed, id still be playing apa 9 ball.)

The concept of throwing 2s, 3s, and 4s at 7s in 8ball works for the lower tier 7s..

I do not consider myself a champion by any description of the word, but if I lose a single rack to an APA 2 or 3, I should jump off a bridge**. I hadn't lost one in well over a year before I quit, and I play better now.





**Unless they manage to run one out, if so, Kudos to them. A very rare occurrence considering 2/3s should be averaging 5-6 innings / rack.
 
Sean, while I agree with your assesment that from a 2/3 to a 7, the handicap system may be flawed, (I am a 7 and I kow that I can beat a 3 or 2 easily - it is the 4's I have trouble with because they can run tables), ....edited

I really love these threads. I'm an SL5 in 8-ball. Yet the SL4's in your area can run racks?????????????? (Maybe you're referencing 9-ball, with which I am admittedly unfamiliar.)

I think I've run two racks of 8-ball in my short (18 month) pool career. Hell, I don't see the SL7's running racks very often. Again, this is 8-ball so the argument is probably moot.

As for SL4's beating SL7's "easily", again I'm glad I don't play in your area. I'll hang with SL6's most nights, and if I play as well as I should I have a chance. Repeat, "a chance". But against the SL7's in my division? Nah.... I don't recall seeing an SL4 beating an SL7 in our division these past 18 months, and if it's happened, it was a one-time fluke.

Carry on.
 
Sean,

You are correct. I did not equate the ball spot with your hypothetical solution. My apologies on that.

Leagueguy

LeagueGuy:

No problem at all. You were probably just caught up in all the emotion that stems from these threads critical of the APA, and I can understand that. I try not to respond to emotions on these boards anymore. Just to the points. Or, to the counterpoints, if I feel they're false, without merit, or otherwise are evasive / deflecting (as I believe for the "excuse-in-a-can" that APA Corporate likes to give for the existence of the 23 rule).

I enjoy going to places like Big Shot Billiards for the Eastern Regionals, and having it remind me that pool is still very much alive in the amateur circles. It gives a warm fuzzy feeling, if that makes sense. I have a couple buddies in the APA, and although I can't join it (I'm a known Open-level player in these parts), I enjoy watching them play, offering them coaching from the sidelines, and if they're playing in a Singles Board, keep score for them.

I do disagree with how they play 8-ball/9-ball, as it sets the wrong expectation for up-and-coming players by teaching them the wrong rules, but that's just me. I was in my normal pool hall stomping grounds earlier this week, and on the table next to me, were two players playing 9-ball, but they were sliding beads every time they pocketed a ball (and no, they certainly weren't playing short-rack banks ;) ). Even though I chuckle to myself at playing 9-ball this way, I smiled, knowing these guys are *at least* here patronizing the pool hall. So more power to 'em!

-Sean
 
I really love these threads. I'm an SL5 in 8-ball. Yet the SL4's in your area can run racks?????????????? (Maybe you're referencing 9-ball, with which I am admittedly unfamiliar.)

I think I've run two racks of 8-ball in my short (18 month) pool career. Hell, I don't see the SL7's running racks very often. Again, this is 8-ball so the argument is probably moot.

As for SL4's beating SL7's "easily", again I'm glad I don't play in your area. I'll hang with SL6's most nights, and if I play as well as I should I have a chance. Repeat, "a chance". But against the SL7's in my division? Nah.... I don't recall seeing an SL4 beating an SL7 in our division these past 18 months, and if it's happened, it was a one-time fluke.

Carry on.

Probably used the wrong wording. 4's can make balls. They don't run racks very often at all (I may have seen a couple in my time). but in a big match, I would rather play against a 7 then a 4 any day of the week.

I myself have lost to a 4 a fair bit in the last few years.

Just my experience.

Leagueguy
 
Probably used the wrong wording. 4's can make balls. They don't run racks very often at all (I may have seen a couple in my time). but in a big match, I would rather play against a 7 then a 4 any day of the week.

I myself have lost to a 4 a fair bit in the last few years.

Just my experience.

Leagueguy

I thought of the original wording of "run a table" of running out what is left. I've played strong 3's and 4's that can run 5 balls left on the table if nothing is hooked. Say, I'm playing them, miss my last ball due to a stupid mistake, or just miss the 8. If it's an empty table with 5 balls sitting out there unobstructed, it's not unheard of for them to run them out and put in the 8. So much easier for weaker players to come back when you've cleared off half the balls on the table.

Brian
 
I thought of the original wording of "run a table" of running out what is left. I've played strong 3's and 4's that can run 5 balls left on the table if nothing is hooked. Say, I'm playing them, miss my last ball due to a stupid mistake, or just miss the 8. If it's an empty table with 5 balls sitting out there unobstructed, it's not unheard of for them to run them out and put in the 8. So much easier for weaker players to come back when you've cleared off half the balls on the table.

Brian

You know the 4's that I am talking about then. The ones who will punish you for 1 mistake.
 
I sure do. I lost the lag to a four a couple sessions ago in playoffs and he broke and ran the first rack (9ball). I turned to my team and just said, "Sorry guys, we're down one". If you have to spot the world to someone like that it's real tough to outrun it. I wasn't playing much pool back then so I felt like I had no chance after that.
 
You know the 4's that I am talking about then. The ones who will punish you for 1 mistake.

Yup! IMHO a lot of the difference between a strong 4, a 5, a 6, and a 7 has to do with what they can do with the cue ball after they make a ball. A strong 4 can make balls pretty well, they just aren't great at leaves and horrible about being able to break out clusters. It just doesn't occur to them about how to do it. 5's get much better position and break out clusters fairly often. 6's get even better position and break out clusters a lot of the time, 7's get yet better position and break out clusters almost all the time. Plus, knowing how to get out of bad positions also plays into the differences. But, I will never underestimate a decent 4's ability to run 4 or 5 balls on a pretty spread out table. They won't do it all the time, probably not even 30% of the time, but they can do it.

And, I remember when I was one of those 4's :)

Brian
 
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I'd rather stick with shooting 6s or 7s personally...
Some of the 4's in my area can shoot sporty enough to make me think twice about a 5 -2 race, at least with APA rules... Its enough to drive a man to the drink I tell ya!
 
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