The Ipt North American 8-ball Open, Is It Open??????

[Cameron Smith]

Certainly a reasonable point, but the mechanism is now in place that ensures that an all-star tour is exactly what the IPT will evolve into. Drop the bottom fifty players and fill the spots based on an annual qualifying tournament, and after a while, an all-star tour is exactly what you'll have!

Cinderellas aren't long for this tour, at least not given the current roster-filling methods.

Your right, eventually it will be an all star tour. The cinderalla's would merely be something to create interest in the beginning. As colin said some of the biggest stories coming out of the King of the Hill would the women beating the men. What a story it would be if Allison Fisher captured the world title. On the other hand I wouldnt be surprised if a total unknown placed in the top ten of a few events. With the lack of money in proffessional pool I have to believe there are some people out with the ability to compete with the top pros. It's not at all improbable that Reyes Mosconi or Sigel are only the best players we know about. Perhaps the best player who ever lived is a relative unknown. Don Willis comes to mind (though he is known but not like Mosconi, Crane, Lassiter etc.). But if everything goes according to Trudeau's plan the stars of the pool world will be recognized by the mainstream and people will care.

regards

 

[TheOne]

The original selection will be a moot point in a short amount of time. The fact is even if he used your criteria, I can assure you there would be just as many unhappy people. If they didn't have qualifiers for opens, you could see 800 players enter and you would have a nightmare of epic proportions to handle, it would take 3 weeks to complete the tournament. Having to enter a qualifier should not be a problem or slap in the face, you will certainly see a very good field of 50 players in the opens who can easily make it into the top 100 of an open. Then at the end of the year many current IPT members will loose their cards and the players passed over will win a tour card in the tour qualifier. I just don't see any problems with qualifiers, even though I would do something different.

So top players who really got passed over or missed the deadline will get in, like Alex just did, but I guarantee you "world class" players will still miss out and some will still complain, what then? Just at the DCC alone I see many great players that deserve to be on the IPT and may never get in, honestly thats just the breaks of having an exclusive 150 player tour. If you didn'y have these restrictions the money would be spread out too thin as it is now. thats a good thing.

So no matter what you do there are still going to be many many great players left out, just as there are in golf, and other sports, nothing can be done about that since there will never be enough money to support them all. Golf has tons of great players who live out of their cars trying all the time to get into the PGA, and they pay over $10,000 for Q-school and go through tons of hoops to do so, some have spent way over $30,000 just trying Q-school and then if they make the PGA tour it's no guarantee your going to be making lots of money since you have to make the cut each time. Same with the PGA US open, yet players by the thousands still try all the time and struggle in the minor league golf tours.

I too have my own ideas about the opens, But I feel the right system will work it's way out. The best thing I see so far is his willingness to make adjustments, I already hear talk about other sponsors when at one point he shrugged them off. It's amazing to see the level of professionalism and quality of the events at such a short notice, If he pulls off all the tournaments this year with that level of quality and money, I don't care how he does it, it will be simply amazing especially considering the relatively small staff he presently has, and while making changes on the fly.

I agree with much of what you said but I still don't agree with the way he picked the original 150 or the that has been proposed to run the "open" events. I think their is enough evidence to support what I'm trying to say when you look at other tournaments.

a) Both the WPC and the BCA open for example pick their players largely off world wide ranking lists, I don't hear many people complain about the quality or merit of the fields in these two events?

b) The us open entry is a measly $500 compared to the IPT $2000 per qualifier and the field is closed on the rare occassions it tills up. The euro tour I believe also has an excellent system, first 256 (I think) and then you go on a waiting list. OK, so maybe the money isn't as large as the IPT but you can simply scale up the entries and use the same system. I would be interested to know what the format for the Tokyo event which was comparable in prize money. I know Colin paid his money and took his chances, I bet this was an open event and didn't get 800 entries? I bet the entry wasn't even close to $2000 either?

I like the idea of a tour card holder and having to earn it, it brings some professionalism to the sport to a certain degree. However given he "handpicked" the original 150 I think he should have made a couple of events truly "open" just in case, JUST IN CASE, it was possible he made a few mistakes in his original selection

 

[jjinfla]

The One,

You make no sense at all.

It is obvious that you have never listened to his three CD's.

You never attended one of his events.

He had to start somewhere and he did it his way. Now he is going forward and every event is getting better and better.

If you don't like it why not just forget about it and go play APA somewhere.

All this carping about the past is insane and senseless. The past is done and over with; it is the future that counts.

Jake

 

[Colin Colenso]

b) The us open entry is a measly $500 compared to the IPT $2000 per qualifier and the field is closed on the rare occassions it tills up. The euro tour I believe also has an excellent system, first 256 (I think) and then you go on a waiting list. OK, so maybe the money isn't as large as the IPT but you can simply scale up the entries and use the same system. I would be interested to know what the format for the Tokyo event which was comparable in prize money. I know Colin paid his money and took his chances, I bet this was an open event and didn't get 800 entries? I bet the entry wasn't even close to $2000 either?

I think the Tokyo event entry was US$800. Plus of course the considerable travelling and hotel expenses for the international. I think about 120 internationals flew in and there were about 200 Japanese players in the field.

This cost is comparable to the US$1,000 entry fees for the World Champs and US Open events. In Tokyo you also had to win a few rounds before any return was realized. For these IPT qualifiers it might require winning a couple rounds more to get into the guaranteed return.

As the 2006 qualifiers currently underway, the prize for qualification is to be placed into guaranteed money rounds of 4 events with $8 million in prizes and a near certainty of being in about 10 events the following year.

Perhaps the qualifiers would appear more attractive if some of the monies raised went back to the field of players if they can get through a couple of rounds.

I wont disagree that the 150 is not the strongest list of players that could have been made, and your suggestions for how players could have been selected is reasonable. If more of these top players had of sumbitted their entries, more would probably have been chosen. It certainly appears that many of the top exchelon, including the HOF's were approached and invited, but it may have been logistically difficult to chase up all the strong ranked players, especially as they weren't cooperating with the associations.

Anyway, this year 8 or 9 more very strong players will join the 50 or so very strong players that are already on the tour. There will be 50 strong qualifiers going into the 2 major events and at the end of this season another 50 strong players will join the tour.

The IPT events will be strong fields and getting stronger and deeper soon.

The only thing that I could see changing is the formats of the qualifying events, perhaps to round robin series and perhaps where a field of a couple of hundred might play off for more spots at one time.

What would you recommend as a preferable format?

 

[shoutout33]

I understand where "The One" is coming from, I really do; however, like everyone else is saying, he had to start from somewhere. I think it was cool to have HOF's out there playing, but it doesn't mean that they'll dominate the rest of the year. They are good, but I believe that some of them will not have their tour card next year.

One thing I really don't understand is why folks complain about the those who were chosen first. Ok, so some of them got a gift. They still have to perform to keep that gift. I'm noticing that after seeing the results from the Derby. Never heard of that Miller guy before. Was he on another tour or something? Plus, if you didn't get chosen, (and have a serious chip on your shoulder about it...) you can get ready for the Open tourneys and show them why you should've been chosen.

Yeah, mabey KT should've made it so everyone had to compete and earn a spot, but I realize that there are a lot of people out there (way more than 150...) that could be on the tour. They way they talk about this Lil' John cat who has enough confidence to be a road player and everyone knows who he is and he still takes their money, that's something else to me. Also, even if KT would've picked out the 150 that should've been on the tour...somebody still would've complained.

 

[TheOne]

The One,

You make no sense at all.

It is obvious that you have never listened to his three CD's.

You never attended one of his events.

He had to start somewhere and he did it his way. Now he is going forward and every event is getting better and better.

If you don't like it why not just forget about it and go play APA somewhere.

All this carping about the past is insane and senseless. The past is done and over with; it is the future that counts.

Jake

Of course I make no sense to you, because Im not saying "the IPT is perfect"

You only see things in black and white, but as Jimmy pointed out grey areas exist and I think they can be discussed without every throwing names around! ALso guess what, this is a DISCUSSION forum! If you don't like discussing what r u doing here?

I havne't listened to his tapes just read what he said on them by reliable poster. Anyway I'm looking at this from the players perspective nothing else for the purposes of this debate. Its obvious you are just a fan and if I wsa wearing my "fan cap" for the moment I think the IPT is great! If you was a player I think you would understand my points a little more. I'm in Prague at the moment and I can tell you the feeling what I hear from players is exactly the points I am making here, I know this also from all the PM's Ive got already.

Most sadly fear posting because of people like you and others that can't understand what we are saying and label anbody that criticises bad losers, whiners, or more recently some who "has a chip on their shoulders"

I don't mind so I'll keep posting in the hope that the IPT does listen and maybe just maybe 1 or 2 of my (many many players) suggestions actually happen?

Anyway got to go, I play Nick Van Den Berg at soon so I'll probably have to play my ass off just to make the score respectable lol!

 

[TheOne]

I think the Tokyo event entry was US$800. Plus of course the considerable travelling and hotel expenses for the international. I think about 120 internationals flew in and there were about 200 Japanese players in the field.

This cost is comparable to the US$1,000 entry fees for the World Champs and US Open events. In Tokyo you also had to win a few rounds before any return was realized. For these IPT qualifiers it might require winning a couple rounds more to get into the guaranteed return.

As the 2006 qualifiers currently underway, the prize for qualification is to be placed into guaranteed money rounds of 4 events with $8 million in prizes and a near certainty of being in about 10 events the following year.

Perhaps the qualifiers would appear more attractive if some of the monies raised went back to the field of players if they can get through a couple of rounds.

I wont disagree that the 150 is not the strongest list of players that could have been made, and your suggestions for how players could have been selected is reasonable. If more of these top players had of sumbitted their entries, more would probably have been chosen. It certainly appears that many of the top exchelon, including the HOF's were approached and invited, but it may have been logistically difficult to chase up all the strong ranked players, especially as they weren't cooperating with the associations.

Anyway, this year 8 or 9 more very strong players will join the 50 or so very strong players that are already on the tour. There will be 50 strong qualifiers going into the 2 major events and at the end of this season another 50 strong players will join the tour.

The IPT events will be strong fields and getting stronger and deeper soon.

The only thing that I could see changing is the formats of the qualifying events, perhaps to round robin series and perhaps where a field of a couple of hundred might play off for more spots at one time.

What would you recommend as a preferable format?

Dont have much time left on credti colin but I think most players would rather see lower priced double elim qualiers or higher (or current level) round robin format. But the BIGGEST wish I'm hearing is for the "ope" events to be truly "open", eg you pay your entry (maybe 2k or whatever?) and you're in the draw. If they are worried about numbers even with that price, then do what the euro, UPA tour, US Open etc do, first to pay get in and have a cut off point. Whats wrong with that?

PS
US Open and WPC is $500, in the WPC you get 5 days of quals for that.

 

[Colin Colenso]

Dont have much time left on credti colin but I think most players would rather see lower priced double elim qualiers or higher (or current level) round robin format. But the BIGGEST wish I'm hearing is for the "ope" events to be truly "open", eg you pay your entry (maybe 2k or whatever?) and you're in the draw. If they are worried about numbers even with that price, then do what the euro, UPA tour, US Open etc do, first to pay get in and have a cut off point. Whats wrong with that?

PS
US Open and WPC is $500, in the WPC you get 5 days of quals for that.

I can see that a truly open event would be beneficial to the many good players who want to get their best odds chance at some of the returns.

However, from an organizational and marketing (branding of a tour) perspective it would be bad business. Certainly none of the big money sports tours run in this way and that is for a good reason.

Fact is the tour, and the qualification system as it appears to be developing is much more open and accessible that equivalents like the PGA or WTA tours.

I would expect that any player who could legitimately hold their spot on the IPT for a few years should be able to get through the qualifying process after a few tries.

If they're short on cash they could go through the mini-qualifier routes.

Thing is, time is not likely to turn back, and I doubt very much that events would ever be made truly open in the way you suggested as an alternative. If they are open in that way, then it is not really and IPT tour, there are not really IPT members. There is not a distict field of representatives which represents the IPT brand. I think it would be bad marketing as it would weaken what the IPT brand represents.

As for how all the future qualification events are run, I share the hope that it is accessable to more players, and for those all around the world, and that the format justly rewards the strongest players.

btw: I hoping you can attend the planned qualifier for 2 spots in Europe! I'll be baracking for you intensely.

byw2: How'd u go against NVB? You know he got beaten by a woman at the KOH

 

[TheOne]

I can see that a truly open event would be beneficial to the many good players who want to get their best odds chance at some of the returns.

However, from an organizational and marketing (branding of a tour) perspective it would be bad business. Certainly none of the big money sports tours run in this way and that is for a good reason.

Fact is the tour, and the qualification system as it appears to be developing is much more open and accessible that equivalents like the PGA or WTA tours.

I would expect that any player who could legitimately hold their spot on the IPT for a few years should be able to get through the qualifying process after a few tries.

If they're short on cash they could go through the mini-qualifier routes.

Thing is, time is not likely to turn back, and I doubt very much that events would ever be made truly open in the way you suggested as an alternative. If they are open in that way, then it is not really and IPT tour, there are not really IPT members. There is not a distict field of representatives which represents the IPT brand. I think it would be bad marketing as it would weaken what the IPT brand represents.

As for how all the future qualification events are run, I share the hope that it is accessable to more players, and for those all around the world, and that the format justly rewards the strongest players.

btw: I hoping you can attend the planned qualifier for 2 spots in Europe! I'll be baracking for you intensely.

byw2: How'd u go against NVB? You know he got beaten by a woman at the KOH

The World Poker tour does ok and anyone can pay there 10k and take their chances. But I agree with you and like the idea of a tour card holder, I just want to see a better qualifying format, but word on the street suggests that might be happening in UK soon

BTW
Beat NVB 9-8, gotta go play again now

 

[Colin Colenso]

The World Poker tour does ok and anyone can pay there 10k and take their chances. But I agree with you and like the idea of a tour card holder, I just want to see a better qualifying format, but word on the street suggests that might be happening in UK soon

BTW
Beat NVB 9-8, gotta go play again now

I was thinking of the World Poker model when I made my points, in that it seems to be a model of a more open access tour.

It certainly is a different model, and seems to have had remarkable success. It it hard to compare its pros and cons, being such a young tour, but it deserves consideration.

Well done so far in the event...watching your progress!

 

[Gabber]

Colin said,
"If they are open in that way, then it is not really and IPT tour, there are not really IPT members. There is not a distict field of representatives which represents the IPT brand. I think it would be bad marketing as it would weaken what the IPT brand represents."

They havent had a real tourney yet and they dont have any products either.
The IPT 'members' are now 'representatives 'and not players.

It seems that there is a lot going on behind the scenes that we second class citizens /[ non IPT members]/pool players are not privy to. Whats all the secrecy about Colin? What does the IPT 'brand' represent .

If I were to play and win a qualifier and win the Open tourney , [hypothetically of course ], if I am not a member I wouldnt have to sign any contract, would I. I am entering a pool tournament and if I win a spot- I win a spot.


Could anyone post a copy of the IPT players contract or is that also a secret. Are there any details about the profit sharing? What exactly are you guarenteed? I mean on paper- in black and white?
Forget the promises and the rhetoric, whats the bottom line [ a figure]that you can sue for if the IPT goes down?

These are the kind of questions that need to be answered.
No doubt, once again, a few will call me negative for asking normal Qs but lets not forget, the IPT came onto this board to publicise its 'tour'. If they dont like awkward questions or whats said on this board about them thats too ****ing bad!




Gabber.........