The "new" 9-ball: Changing the game to reflect the new equipment

[John Barton]

Flex, how long have you been playing pool? This might help us understand perhaps why you don't have a problem with jump cues.

Jude, you're 35 and I am 39. I have been playing since I was 12 and learned to play golf on the snooker table before I even knew there was a game called 9-ball. I grew up on two foul 9-ball and I was betting pretty good by the time I was 18.

I don't have a problem with jump cues - age has NOTHING to do with it.

I have taught players to jump who were in their 60s and who said "man I wish they had these in the 60's". It really comes down to personal bias more than anything. All the technical objections have been successfully refuted, all of the "purchased skill" objections have been successfully refuted, so it comes down to only personal dislike.

And it will be sad if personal dislike beats logic. It's already the case in many areas of the country where they don't follow "the rules" and simply make their own. No cohesiveness - no mainstream.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

If I were to say that I started when I was 16, that would be technically correct. I'm now past the half century mark.

Playing seriously? A little over 4 years.

Flex

Four years. Hmm.. I mean, not to take anything away from the value of your opinion but you have to understand, I (like many of us) started playing this game before there were jump cues. I've seen quite a few rules come and go. Some of them I liked and some of them I didn't. I know the jump cue rule isn't "new" but it's not the way things have always been which is part of the reason why you're going to find people who adamantly hate them.

 

[Icon of Sin]

Shawn,

If the league you play in jumping constitutes a foul and the places you play disalllow jump shots for fear of ripping the cloth, I dont see why this thread was even created. It's obviously not a problem for you since you are not allowed to jump anywhere you shoot.

 

[cubc]

most people who complain about jump cues either a) cant play good enough safes or b) cant use them well themselves. I've had several complain as I push out to a jump shot and when they pass i take the jump and start running balls and they get so angry about it... then at the end of the night they're asking me to teach them how to jump. Stupid hypocrites.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Jude, you're 35 and I am 39. I have been playing since I was 12 and learned to play golf on the snooker table before I even knew there was a game called 9-ball. I grew up on two foul 9-ball and I was betting pretty good by the time I was 18.

I don't have a problem with jump cues - age has NOTHING to do with it.

I have taught players to jump who were in their 60s and who said "man I wish they had these in the 60's". It really comes down to personal bias more than anything. All the technical objections have been successfully refuted, all of the "purchased skill" objections have been successfully refuted, so it comes down to only personal dislike.

And it will be sad if personal dislike beats logic. It's already the case in many areas of the country where they don't follow "the rules" and simply make their own. No cohesiveness - no mainstream.

John, I never brought up his age. I asked how long he's been playing and I actually believe it DOES have something to do with it. Flex has basically ridiculed everyone who has said anything negative about jump cues and I believe he simply just doesn't understand why we feel the way we do.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

Shawn,

If the league you play in jumping constitutes a foul and the places you play disalllow jump shots for fear of ripping the cloth, I dont see why this thread was even created. It's obviously not a problem for you since you are not allowed to jump anywhere you shoot.

When I play events, they're allowed. I'm also talking as a whole in regards to the industry. I could care less about my league. I wish they'd allow all shots. I like jump shots, not jump cues.

 

[Southpaw]

Grady said it best on one of the Accu stat tapes I have..." I can teach anyone to jump in 30 minutes, but it takes years to learn how to kick well." I agree with this statement 100%. JMO.

Southpaw

 

[cubc]

Grady said it best on one of the Accu stat tapes I have..." I can teach anyone to jump in 30 minutes, but it takes years to learn how to kick well." I agree with this statement 100%. JMO.

Southpaw

Grady said it in an ignorant way. It SHOULD be "I can teach anyone to jump or kick in 30 minutes, but it takes years to learn how to do both of them well"

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

most people who complain about jump cues either a) cant play good enough safes or b) cant use them well themselves. I've had several complain as I push out to a jump shot and when they pass i take the jump and start running balls and they get so angry about it... then at the end of the night they're asking me to teach them how to jump. Stupid hypocrites.

I'm willing to bet there are a few guys on this post that jump quite fine, even though we don't like the jump cue. As I said, I made money from a guy just like you with that exact same belief. Don't think that we don't like them because we can't use them. We don't like them because guys like you rely on them.

 

[Southpaw]

Grady said it in an ignorant way. It SHOULD be "I can teach anyone to jump or kick in 30 minutes, but it takes years to learn how to do both of them well"

so you think its just as easy to kick as it is to jump???

Southpaw

 

[cubc]

yes. the table has f'ing dots on it to guide you how to do it. It's not hard to learn how to kick and HIT the ball. The hard part is kicking and hitting the ball the right way to return a safe or make it. Just like it's easy to jump and HIT the ball, but the hard part is hitting it to make it or playing a safe out of it and controlling the cueball properly.

Neither of them are hard to learn how to do. Both of them are hard to master and control. How many people can jump the ball but when it lands it spins all over or bounces with no control? I see it all the time.

In regards to kicking out of a TOUGH safe like frozen and you have to 2 or 3 rail to get out of it then that's much harder than a 1 rail kick. Just like if you try to jump a ball that's 1 inch away or closer. It's that much harder.

I think they're equal.

 

[John Barton]

Again, the implication that I don't know how to jump. I do. I jump well. The problem is, balls are obstacles. You are supposed to stay away from the wrong side of them. Now, it's merely an inconvenience. Oops, I hooked myself. No problem. I'll just go to my bag, get out the prop, and hit it. Hey, look, it slopped in. Boo ya. Do you think it was an accident that the rails were made at a height of just slightly over the centre of the balls? That was done on purpose. They assumed the ball would be staying on the cloth. Perhaps we should, in the interest of making the game better, allow the top of the rail to be extended to allow jump shots a backboard, kind of like a squash court. If we're going to make a 3 dimensional game (since jumps are allowed), the tables should reflect this as well.

Now that sounds like fun! 3-D pool.

Actually Shawn, the rail height is also something that has constantly evolved throughout the years and it's not the same all over the world for all tables and all games.

I really have to hand it to you though, you are inventive. I have rarely seen someone come up with so many notions about why jump cues shouldn't be part of pool. And quite fanciful ones at that.

Oh I hooked myself, no problem, I know how to kick and I know how to jump, let's see, in this situation the jump is the best option, allright I need to be at about 40 degrees, about a medium hit, need to draw the ball a little, ok, here goes, BAM perfect, look at the look on that sucker's face because he thought he was getting ball in hand. See ya!

One time I played this guy and I was also new to the jump cue so I was jumping everything. He locks me up where no jump is possible and says now I get to see to you kick - I kicked it in and ran out - and told him I spent a little time on that part of my game as well. He did beat me out of a couple hundred in the end because my jumping just couldn't fade his running out and constant safeties.

Another time in the same poolroom, Markley's Billiards in Norristown PA, my friend Chris won me a $100 when he jumped a ball in and FOLLOWED to the rail with inside english to land the cue ball in the only window available for the next shot. No luck - PURE SKILL ALL THE WAY.

I guess that's another thing I DON'T get Shawn - we all know - including you - that almost any jump shot is low percentage no matter how good you are. Why do you begrudge people who make a low percentage shot once in a while? You must be a real joy to play with.

 

[elite1206]

Grady said it in an ignorant way. It SHOULD be "I can teach anyone to jump or kick in 30 minutes, but it takes years to learn how to do both of them well"

Absolutely what I was thinking...

 

[Southpaw]

yes. the table has f'ing dots on it to guide you how to do it. It's not hard to learn how to kick and HIT the ball. The hard part is kicking and hitting the ball the right way to return a safe or make it. Just like it's easy to jump and HIT the ball, but the hard part is hitting it to make it or playing a safe out of it and controlling the cueball properly.

Neither of them are hard to learn how to do. Both of them are hard to master and control. How many people can jump the ball but when it lands it spins all over or bounces with no control? I see it all the time.

In regards to kicking out of a TOUGH safe like frozen and you have to 2 or 3 rail to get out of it then that's much harder than a 1 rail kick. Just like if you try to jump a ball that's 1 inch away or closer. It's that much harder.

I think they're equal.

Tell ya what, since you seem to think kicking and jumping both take the same knowledge and skill, lets you and I play a set of 9 ball. I can only jump balls and you can only kick at balls when we are hooked. Then we will see if you think they are the same.

Southpaw

 

[Flex]

Four years. Hmm.. I mean, not to take anything away from the value of your opinion but you have to understand, I (like many of us) started playing this game before there were jump cues. I've seen quite a few rules come and go. Some of them I liked and some of them I didn't. I know the jump cue rule isn't "new" but it's not the way things have always been which is part of the reason why you're going to find people who adamantly hate them.

I can understand that. Kind of sounds like some people are really resistant to change, as I am in many circumstances. This, however, isn't one of them.

I play an old timer some straight pool from time to time. He's in his 80s. In his day, he was at least an 80 ball runner, if not more. He's very humble, doesn't brag about his skill, which until today is quite formidable.

However, sometimes when we're in a game of 14.1, I'll pull out the jump cue, make a ball, and continue my run. He always compliments me on those shots. It's not about age Jude, it's about skill.

 

[supergreenman]

So, jump cues should be allowed because you have scientific facts? And those are...........? You have an opinion. I have an opinion. Make the game real simple, like smashmouth says. One cue at the table. That's all. Otherwise, I say break out the golf bags. I will make myself so many cues that when I play an open event, Jay will fall off his chair laughing. I'll have a caddy that helps me line up the shots, discusses position with me, and hands me the right cue for each shot. That should make for great TV. The commentators would be howling.

You know, I'm going to have to agree with one of the other posters that said this is just an issue of sour grapes. Jump cues are legal, they take skill to use.

Suck it up princess and learn the skill, or quit whining.

 

[elite1206]

Tell ya what, since you seem to think kicking and jumping both take the same knowledge and skill, lets you and I play a set of 9 ball. I can only jump balls and you can only kick at balls when we are hooked. Then we will see if you think they are the same.

Southpaw

There are just some shots where kick is more favourable than jumps, and vice versa, so jumping is just another dimension to the game, and like what Cubc has mentioned, they are both equally hard to master. For most of the players, kicking and jumping only get them out of safeties, but they ended up with an easy run out for the opponent, the real difficult part is to make the balls or produce a counter-safety.

 

[cubc]

Sure. I learned for years without jumping because honestly I was too broke to afford another cue and a case to accomodate a third stick. Aside from that when i could afford one I was intimidated by it. I could kick out of anything mostly so why would I need to jump? It was intimidating because seeing people around who were jumping had very little control and often times gave the game up to the opponent either by not controlling the cueball or leaving a cruise out after hitting it.

I kept kicking so I have very good kicking and masse skills as that's what I used for years in some high dollar sets. Now I can jump and have been working on that for the past 4 months straight in practice. I definately am more confident with my kicks than jumps but there are times when a jump cue comes in handy and I respect those who are very good jumpers because it's not easy to execute a difficult jump shot correctly. I even full cue jump a lot now that i've become fairly savvy with it. It's a fun part of the game for me but i still think both are equal and both require a LOT of practice to be good with it.

My opinion.

 

[crosseyedjoe]

There is this group of people who probably doesn't even know how to jump, or their jumping skill is questionable, but guess what, they manage to win tournaments.

 

[Flex]

Grady said it best on one of the Accu stat tapes I have..." I can teach anyone to jump in 30 minutes, but it takes years to learn how to kick well." I agree with this statement 100%. JMO.

Southpaw

Years for some people perhaps. Not in my case. First thing I did was lose money, several times, to a shark. He told me I can't give him ball in hand. Told me I needed to learn how to kick. I took that to heart, and studied Jimmy Reid's three rail kicking system, and got it down pat. Then one rail kicks, which can often be more difficult than 3 railers. There are some secrets to doing it consistently, as you certainly know. Not divulging any of my secrets on it, either here, or elsewhere.

If someone wants to intimidate a lesser player, Grady's comments on kicking work pretty well. The solution to the problem is to study how to kick and practice it, and then learn how to adapt those methods to the way different tables play.

Years? Can't say I agree with Grady on that one, but who am I?

Flex