The NRA, AARP and Pool?

[macguy]

I think it would mean marketing exposure which pool desperately needs in order to become mainstream.
Why did you stop?

I disagree with some of that. I think it absolutely depends upon the pro situation.

Then, pool in the bars is meaningless, totally irrelevant with respect to the type of person you'll find on this forum or in a pool room. Unless there's a 'player' around, I have absolutely no desire to play a game of pool in a bar, and other than subbing in a bar league recently, I have not done so in years. I consider them 2 different animals altogether (pool room pool, bar pool).

I happen to be a business owner, and I now frequent one of central Pa's most established rooms. I've known the owner of the place for almost 25 years, and he's really built the business well. But, he doesn't make his money on the pool room, nor the pro shop. If he had to rely on that I'm pretty sure he and his wife would starve to death.

I don't know the inside scoop on what it takes to run a pool room. But getting a room started up has got to be a tough endeavor. Lets face it, if you've got enough cash laying around to open a pool room and make a go of it, then you're obviously not real bad with money, (or it's old money). In the case of the prior, you'll quickly figure out there are better investments for that cash. In the case of the latter, you probably won't have the money long anyway.

Wanting to be in the business, and being able to get in the business are two different things. If I may be so bold, I'll let you in on one of my personal observations. I've seen lots and lots of pool players in my days. Maybe not as many as some folks on here, but quite a few. I've been away from the game for over a decade, so I've also got some history to look back upon. So, I'll restrict this to players I've known for 20 years or more.

The ones who were successful in their own business or job, treated the game like the recreation it was, but they still kept their priorities in line. They had zero desire to open a pool room or to get involved with one.

The ones who were most gung-ho and had aspirations of opening a pool room are basically still broke, and are much farther from room ownership than they ever were before. A few are so broke then don't own a cue any more and are the next best thing to street people. That is not the type of person you want owning these pool rooms you wish to see sprout up. They won't be around long.

Then, there is this. For years and years, I wanted to get out of my business and open a restaurant. I love food prep, and I'm fairly good at it. I thought maybe a bar, or something of that nature. But, I never did it. (smartest move of my life ) A guy who used to work for me had a son who was top of his class at the CIA in NY. Quite a chef. He made one statement to me about his work that he said he wished he could change. He's working when everyone else isn't. Well, that applies to pool rooms as well. There's not much going on at the pool room at 8:00 am....


Try hiring someone who's worth their salt and actually cares about the business they work for. Now imagine trying to run a pool room as a one man show. It's tough. And if you've got a wife or family who can help with the business, unfortunately that means they also depend on you for survival. Another double edged sword.

Several rooms have opened and failed in this area. I'd say the sum total of their effect was to dilute the already small market for the one that is already here and established. Thank gawd that one is reasonably secure, because if it wasn't, there'd be no room at all here anymore.

To answer one of your questions one room I had the lease ran out and I had to close. The other I did not open, I bought it. It opened in 1959. I had it for ten years and sold it. Main reason for selling was I wanted to move out of the area. It's still there and does a jam up business.

I had intentions of opening another room farther north I even have a load of equipment I have bought over time in storage, but I have kind of gotten stuck and can't seem to get moving, getting old I guess. By the way, buying equipment when you can is one of the secrets. No borrowed money or partners. Open the doors with no debt.

 

[BugHunter]

To answer one of your questions one room I had the lease ran out and I had to close. The other I did not open, I bought it. It opened in 1959. I had it for ten years and sold it. Main reason for selling was I wanted to move out of the area. It's still there and does a jam up business.

I had intentions of opening another room farther north I even have a load of equipment I have bought over time in storage, but I have kind of gotten stuck and can't seem to get moving, getting old I guess. By the way, buying equipment when you can is one of the secrets. No borrowed money or partners. Open the doors with no debt.

I see everywhere people advocate lease for commercial property, and I've actually heard people say "do not buy under any circumstance". I've never understood that. I own mine, I rent it to my business (rent from myself), and it's a fantastic way to avoid 941 taxes. Why anyone would want to spend lease money for no equity is beyond me. Especially when the lessor can pull the rug out from under you like you had done to you. Not only is it not fun to try to pick up and move, but doing so when you are almost force to jump into a lease because you're back is to the wall, that's worse yet.

Buying up front is good advice for someone wanting to give it a go. Picking up tables and equip up front, sitting them in storage till it's opening day, I agree. The #1 killer of businesses is debt service. Everybody thinks that they have to have everything now, and borrow to get it. Unfortunately, unless you're really good at money management, that comes back to haunt you.

I see Gold Crown 3's for sale on Ebay for 850.00 or so. If a guy could snag some of them over a few year period, that'd be a great start. Still, it would not be a business for me. Maybe in a bigger city. But here, there's just not enough pool shooting population to support 2 rooms.

I would think that you'd need food in the place to make up the balance of your monthly volume. And, maybe I'm biased, but really good food would be what I'd be after. None of this crappy sandwich stuff or dried out pizza. I'm talking about real food, something people actually are wowed with. Somehow I just can't help but think you'd need to diversify. I guess that's because I look at the local room and see that pool just won't carry it on its own.

 

[macguy]

I see everywhere people advocate lease for commercial property, and I've actually heard people say "do not buy under any circumstance". I've never understood that. I own mine, I rent it to my business (rent from myself), and it's a fantastic way to avoid 941 taxes. Why anyone would want to spend lease money for no equity is beyond me. Especially when the lessor can pull the rug out from under you like you had done to you. Not only is it not fun to try to pick up and move, but doing so when you are almost force to jump into a lease because you're back is to the wall, that's worse yet.

Buying up front is good advice for someone wanting to give it a go. Picking up tables and equip up front, sitting them in storage till it's opening day, I agree. The #1 killer of businesses is debt service. Everybody thinks that they have to have everything now, and borrow to get it. Unfortunately, unless you're really good at money management, that comes back to haunt you.

I see Gold Crown 3's for sale on Ebay for 850.00 or so. If a guy could snag some of them over a few year period, that'd be a great start. Still, it would not be a business for me. Maybe in a bigger city. But here, there's just not enough pool shooting population to support 2 rooms.

I would think that you'd need food in the place to make up the balance of your monthly volume. And, maybe I'm biased, but really good food would be what I'd be after. None of this crappy sandwich stuff or dried out pizza. I'm talking about real food, something people actually are wowed with. Somehow I just can't help but think you'd need to diversify. I guess that's because I look at the local room and see that pool just won't carry it on its own.

No pool room should operate without a beverage license. That is not to say it is a bar. Most restaurants serve beer and wine but people don't go out to dinner to get drunk. The beer just augments the pool business. You don't even need to have a sit down bar really but adults want to have a beer not a soda.

The area I have been looking actually already has six pool rooms that seem to be doing ok. It is a collage town. I already own property there and plan on making a move sometime next year.

I bought 8 acres years ago with a house and mobile home and barn on it, I now rent out both. I don't want to just go there and sit on my porch till I keel over. Most of what is there are sport bar type places, I prefer a more hardcore type of place in terms of pool. I have done my research there are building there that can be had very reasonable.

 

[BugHunter]

No pool room should operate without a beverage license. That is not to say it is a bar. Most restaurants serve beer and wine but people do go out to dinner to get drunk. The beer just augments the pool business. You don't even need to have a sit down bar really but adults want to have a beer not a soda.

The area I have been looking actually already has six pool rooms that seem to be doing ok. It is a collage town. I already own property there and plan on making a move sometime next year.

I bought 8 acres years ago with a house and mobile home and barn on it, I now rent out both. I don't want to just go there and sit on my porch till I keel over. Most of what is there are sport bar type places, I prefer a more hardcore type of place in terms of pool. I have done my research there are building there that can be had very reasonable.

The room I shoot at locally is non-smoking and has been since it opened in the 80s. They also do not serve any alcohol. I'd like to think that that business model actually helped the place, rather than hurt it. But I can see your point of folks wanting a beer. I do myself sometimes. They have 3 bars within 100 yards walking distance, and 2 sandwich shops, a bakery, and a restaurant within that same 100 yards.

My opinion from the outside looking in would be, your model with the integral bar basically just makes it a bar, but one with more pool tables. In PA, I think that would be way too big a liability if you had young kids in the place. And without them getting exposure at a young age, I think you seriously decrease your clientele. If this thread is about growing the sport, I'm not sure that's the best direction for it to go. Might be the best way to run a room, but I don't think it's best for pool in general.

 

[336Robin]

The room I shoot at locally is non-smoking and has been since it opened in the 80s. They also do not serve any alcohol. I'd like to think that that business model actually helped the place, rather than hurt it. But I can see your point of folks wanting a beer. I do myself sometimes. They have 3 bars within 100 yards walking distance, and 2 sandwich shops, a bakery, and a restaurant within that same 100 yards.

My opinion from the outside looking in would be, your model with the integral bar basically just makes it a bar, but one with more pool tables. In PA, I think that would be way too big a liability if you had young kids in the place. And without them getting exposure at a young age, I think you seriously decrease your clientele. If this thread is about growing the sport, I'm not sure that's the best direction for it to go. Might be the best way to run a room, but I don't think it's best for pool in general.

Growing pool is something that I think is going to have to take a lot of faces. I do think that an association of people of a like mind is going to be necessary and I think the dues need to be real low like $12 a year or something. There needs to be incentives for being an association member that outweigh the dues. Possibly when the dues start to accumulate then an association that helps with pool outreach could be formed but I see it as a slow, slow thing to build....but now our infrastructure is basically nothing. Now if someone could figure out how to make them a payday out of promoting the sport that might work well.

 

[macguy]

The room I shoot at locally is non-smoking and has been since it opened in the 80s. They also do not serve any alcohol. I'd like to think that that business model actually helped the place, rather than hurt it. But I can see your point of folks wanting a beer. I do myself sometimes. They have 3 bars within 100 yards walking distance, and 2 sandwich shops, a bakery, and a restaurant within that same 100 yards.

My opinion from the outside looking in would be, your model with the integral bar basically just makes it a bar, but one with more pool tables. In PA, I think that would be way too big a liability if you had young kids in the place. And without them getting exposure at a young age, I think you seriously decrease your clientele. If this thread is about growing the sport, I'm not sure that's the best direction for it to go. Might be the best way to run a room, but I don't think it's best for pool in general.

The laws are different from state to state. If you go out to dinner with your family, unless it is McDonolds it is a good bet they serve beer and wine. I my state kids can come in even if beer is being served. Like I said it is a billiard center that serves beer and wine, not a bar. There is a difference

The atmosphere that exists is what you create. The place will be what you want it to be. If you want a biker bar that is what you will have. If you want a family place where pool is played you will have that.

Is is becoming a given that pool can not stand alone it needs to be partnered with something else to have the best chance of success. That other entity can be beer or a pool room pizza place. Something by the way I always thought would be a good idea. I had a friend who have a Blimpi franchise. The place next door was a bingo parlor that went out.

He took it over and put in pool tables. He didn't have to do hardly anything just get the tables. now he had a sandwich shop pool room. The place did well. You need some kind of added income and the two business can augment each other. Each one draws and the other gains from it. Kind of a symbiotic relationship. The home depot where I go has a McDonolds inside the store. They complement each other.

It really needs an all of the above approach for pool to grow. There is room in the sport for every kind of pool room to exist, no one idea is the perfect plan. Good ideas will prove themselves and weak ideas will show their weakness and need tweaking. Unfortunately we are currently in the realm of the no ideas.
When something works it works. There is no need to reinvent the wheel.

I was out in La and went in a pool room / bar with a bunch of 25 cent nut machines around the room. As I watched the machines were continually being cranked for a hand full of nuts. The as people were chocking down hands full of nuts they had to buy more beverage be it beer or soda.

I went looking for some of those machines as soon as I got home. I found a guy who had 4 for sale for $200.00. I put them around the room and bingo, they made money and my sales went up. A good idea is a good idea and when you see one write it down and steal it.

 

[BugHunter]

Now if someone could figure out how to make them a payday out of promoting the sport that might work well.

I once heard an insightful statement made, "The amount of money you make is directly proportional to the number of people you please." After I thought about it, yea, Michael Jordan makes more money than me. Same for anyone else who's name is in lights somewhere, (with the exception of some pool players ). Bottom line is, you have to reach out to more people in order to get some cash out of the deal. What does it cost to spectate at any large tournament? Nothing. Create demand with good marketing, offer a way for people to watch, and shazam, even if it's $2 to watch, it's more than they get now. Somewhere it has to begin. Sadly, most rooms I have been in don't have the space for spectators. Then too, many never draw in a big name player that you could market. But, that's the way to generate interest with folks who never played the game. Get them to see it live, watch how easy some guys make it look, and then get then to play so they have an appreciation for what they just saw. I know this works to some degree because I've taken non-players to pool tournaments to watch top players play, and they come away with a totally different attitude about the game. They actually want to give it a try. Incredibly, I've never seen a room owner advertise a tournament for spectators so that people could see that sort of thing live. As I sit here thinking about my local room, why not put fliers in the local bars to get some of those folks who never set foot in a pool room to come watch the tournament finals. Many bar players around here have never seen a strong player, and if they did, it was probably in a setting where they didn't really get to see them at wide-open throttle. I think it'd be cool. And lets face it, as players, many of us will stick around in a tourney we are out of to see the finals because that's where the top dogs are.

The laws are different from state to state. If you go out to dinner with your family, unless it is McDonolds it is a good bet they serve beer and wine. I my state kids can come in even if beer is being served. Like I said it is a billiard center that serves beer and wine, not a bar. There is a difference

The atmosphere that exists is what you create. The place will be what you want it to be. If you want a biker bar that is what you will have. If you want a family place where pool is played you will have that.

I guess I've just never seen it done this way. My thoughts are, alcohol mixed with pool will generate an atmosphere that's not conducive to families or a nice quiet night out. You should see the players at the room I frequent, and they're stone cold sober. :lol:

I was out in La and went in a pool room / bar with a bunch of 25 cent nut machines around the room. As I watched the machines were continually being cranked for a hand full of nuts. The as people were chocking down hands full of nuts they had to buy more beverage be it beer or soda.

I went looking for some of those machines as soon as I got home. I found a guy who had 4 for sale for $200.00. I put them around the room and bingo, they made money and my sales went up. A good idea is a good idea and when you see one write it down and steal it.

Now there's a great idea. I for one have been hooked on those things myself. Yea, I'm aware they're not a bargain on nuts, but damn it they're sitting right there and it's just a quarter!

While you may have lots of good ideas for how to make a room work, it would appear many room owners or potential room owners do not. I've seen them come and go, 2 or 3 years and they go bust. On the positive side, restaurants open and fail at an alarming rate too, but there doesn't seem to be a shortage of people willing to open one. As long as that holds true for pool, somebody will figure it out sooner or later.

 

[336Robin]

Youre right

I once heard an insightful statement made, "The amount of money you make is directly proportional to the number of people you please." After I thought about it, yea, Michael Jordan makes more money than me. Same for anyone else who's name is in lights somewhere, (with the exception of some pool players ). Bottom line is, you have to reach out to more people in order to get some cash out of the deal. What does it cost to spectate at any large tournament? Nothing. Create demand with good marketing, offer a way for people to watch, and shazam, even if it's $2 to watch, it's more than they get now. Somewhere it has to begin. Sadly, most rooms I have been in don't have the space for spectators. Then too, many never draw in a big name player that you could market. But, that's the way to generate interest with folks who never played the game. Get them to see it live, watch how easy some guys make it look, and then get then to play so they have an appreciation for what they just saw. I know this works to some degree because I've taken non-players to pool tournaments to watch top players play, and they come away with a totally different attitude about the game. They actually want to give it a try. Incredibly, I've never seen a room owner advertise a tournament for spectators so that people could see that sort of thing live. As I sit here thinking about my local room, why not put fliers in the local bars to get some of those folks who never set foot in a pool room to come watch the tournament finals. Many bar players around here have never seen a strong player, and if they did, it was probably in a setting where they didn't really get to see them at wide-open throttle. I think it'd be cool. And lets face it, as players, many of us will stick around in a tourney we are out of to see the finals because that's where the top dogs are.



I guess I've just never seen it done this way. My thoughts are, alcohol mixed with pool will generate an atmosphere that's not conducive to families or a nice quiet night out. You should see the players at the room I frequent, and they're stone cold sober. :lol:


Now there's a great idea. I for one have been hooked on those things myself. Yea, I'm aware they're not a bargain on nuts, but damn it they're sitting right there and it's just a quarter!

While you may have lots of good ideas for how to make a room work, it would appear many room owners or potential room owners do not. I've seen them come and go, 2 or 3 years and they go bust. On the positive side, restaurants open and fail at an alarming rate too, but there doesn't seem to be a shortage of people willing to open one. As long as that holds true for pool, somebody will figure it out sooner or later.

Youre very right about spectators and reaching out to people. It would actually shock me if a room owner put in some bleachers where at least two or more tables could be watched. If they did that and took email addresses and sent out email when a big matchup was going to be...that just seems so easy not to mention most 15 table rooms could really do everything they do on 10...that would make room for the bleachers. People go up to Q Master to watch the games because they have bleachers. Bleachers are the key and they cost about what tables do if you get good ones. If you eliminate a few table they pay for themselves.

 

[mrmagoo42]

Shooters in Olathe has bleachers

Neat to see them fill up during semi-finals & finals of their larger tournaments.
While skimming over this thread I started too day dream a little. We have some good people advocating pool like Mark Wilson, Don Akerlow, The Black Widow and many more. It's a shame that these efforts seem so fragmented, each of them working hard but little attention by the average league & tournament player. Is the lack of interest the cause or just not publicized the right way? A strong organization could put pool back on the main stage. Then again maybe I should wake up.

Youre very right about spectators and reaching out to people. It would actually shock me if a room owner put in some bleachers where at least two or more tables could be watched. If they did that and took email addresses and sent out email when a big matchup was going to be...that just seems so easy not to mention most 15 table rooms could really do everything they do on 10...that would make room for the bleachers. People go up to Q Master to watch the games because they have bleachers. Bleachers are the key and they cost about what tables do if you get good ones. If you eliminate a few table they pay for themselves.

 

[Str8PoolPlayer]

I'm getting the impression this thread is more Anti-NRA than Pro-Pool.

 

[336Robin]

yeah wake up....

Neat to see them fill up during semi-finals & finals of their larger tournaments.
While skimming over this thread I started too day dream a little. We have some good people advocating pool like Mark Wilson, Don Akerlow, The Black Widow and many more. It's a shame that these efforts seem so fragmented, each of them working hard but little attention by the average league & tournament player. Is the lack of interest the cause or just not publicized the right way? A strong organization could put pool back on the main stage. Then again maybe I should wake up.

Yeah I understand what you mean about waking up. I wonder that myself quite actually. I find myself on the brink of retirement and the last thing that I want to do is be tied down by anything having been tied to a desk since 2003. I want some freedom and be able to move about. Fragmented everything in pool is working by a simple rule. Its about what is making revenue or being paid for by sponsorship. So no matter what you are doing that is the law of the land and many people are just fine with things the way they are. Were an organization to be formed and begin to find some favor you might be surprised at the people who would align against you for various reasons. Couple that with the fact that pool players tend to enjoy nefarious pursuits and you step back and wonder what is there about this sport that I like so much?

I personally like the fact that pool can bring great socialization to the table among people with differing walks of life, from different places and it can be fun. That to me is a lot to like but there is a whole array of things not to like so I try not to focus on them because I don't have to be a part of those things unless I choose. There will always be the underbelly of pool, that we wont have to nurture. Its the other end of the spectrum that makes it worth it. Its 15 to 20 old guys having a blast everyday at the pool room that's what makes a room to me, a core of friends who take the time to create a nice social atmosphere around a game. Everyone else sort of comes and goes but the old guys hang in there and one by one go their separate ways. I think pool could become a seniors sport if it were pushed that way the right way through private clubs and setting these up could be done but would need to be done for profit to make them work.
That's always been my theory and the only way to ever know is to go into a town and set one up, turn it over to the locals and sell it back to them, but its going to have to be a money maker for the guy doing the setting up or it wont ever work.