The only thing wrong with "Pool," is it needs watching.

sjm said:
A generally well-reasoned post. Sports that people don't know much about have a calculated disadvantage in drawing the interest of fans.

There are exceptions, often when something watched is deemed graceful. I'll offer gymnastics as an example, which 99.9% of us have never tried. I don't always know which moves are harder than the others, but like many, I tend to watch gymnastics only during the summer Olympics, but I'm always taken in by it for the simple reason that it is so graceful. I feel the same about figure skating, another graceful sport that's hard to understand but enjoyable to watch.

I don't think that pool is difficult to understand. Hundreds of millions play it worldwide and every one of them knows that the objective is to run out the rack. In eight ball, they know this means making all the stripes (or solids) and then making the eight ball. In rotation games, they know the objective is to make the balls in numerical order and then win by making the nine-ball. They also know that a player than runs out many racks is to be admired.
Click to expand...

Great post. You covered a great deal of the reasons that regular pool players in the rooms should be able to connect with the game.

Historically before CSI's involvement with Predator. Pool League Pool had no reason to be concerned with play at the Pro Level. Perhaps
now they will have a chance at developing that interest since the league operator is in it but any chances in this regard
will take time.
 
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Reactions: sjm
sjm said:
A generally well-reasoned post. Sports that people don't know much about have a calculated disadvantage in drawing the interest of fans.

There are exceptions, often when something watched is deemed graceful. I'll offer gymnastics as an example, which 99.9% of us have never tried. I don't always know which moves are harder than the others, but like many, I tend to watch gymnastics only during the summer Olympics, but I'm always taken in by it for the simple reason that it is so graceful. I feel the same about figure skating, another graceful sport that's hard to understand but enjoyable to watch.

I don't think that pool is difficult to understand. Hundreds of millions play it worldwide and every one of them knows that the objective is to run out the rack. In eight ball, they know this means making all the stripes (or solids) and then making the eight ball. In rotation games, they know the objective is to make the balls in numerical order and then win by making the nine-ball. They also know that a player than runs out many racks is to be admired.
Click to expand...
Stu,

Sorry I didn’t see you at Mcup

Yes you are correct pool isn’t difficult to understand. The ball goes in or it doesn’t in the eyes of a non-player. It’s a true/false occurrence. Just like cornhole.

However as a player and a knowledgeable pool player and fan you and I both know that what the interesting part about pool for “us” is did he get shape? What shot did he choose, did he hit it good, was it a difficult shot, how difficult was it, was it a good idea or a bad idea, was it the right ball. And so on. That’s the interesting part of pool and why you and I can watch pool for many hours and not get bored.

Similar to chess, for chess players.

When I watch chess and see the Queen’s traded I know that’s a normal thing. Equal trade. When someone hangs their Queen it’s pretty much loss of game. Anything else is Chinese to me. So I can’t fully appreciate chess. But yes I know the rules and “understand” it-kinda.

That’s my point. Pool is just too complex for a casual viewer. After watching a few balls go in or not they get bored. Unless they have deeper knowledge. Typically they don’t.

Hope your well, see you at Derby

Fatboy😃😃
 
telinoz said:
It has always been pretty straightforward to me.
For cuesports, compare how these two present themselves, which one is more professional.
Same table, balls, ruleset.... stability.

Snooker
Vs
Pool

Why do you think Snooker has more coverage... take all the time you need.
Click to expand...
Snooker has a running score and that holds people’s attention.

There’s a score every 5-15 minutes in Mosconi Cup. Zzzzz😴😴

That’s why,

Fatboy😃😃
 
336Robin said:
I don't want to go into supreme detail here too many things actually so let's go the one.

Matchroom was there a long time ago and snooker has been big a long time ago in places
american style pool has not been. It's had a long time to build its following.
Click to expand...
I would argue pool has been around for decades, as much as Snooker.
In fact, the US has had a much bigger audience and population vs UK for pool.

Here is the big point though.
Rules, equipment.
For Snooker, they stabilised that a long time before Matchroom was around.
So, the public, the players, all had to contend with one thing only.

Now pool, wow... I grew up in the UK, 7ft tables, the small ball game... consistent, but so many rulesets that you had to jump from one to other. Lots of associations, leagues all claiming to be the real game.
Now, when moved to Scotland, again more rulesets.. but at least the table and balls were the same.
Then one day, a new Riley's room opened up and there were 9ft American pool tables. How exciting!
I played on them, using my 8ball rules I liked the most... then found out, there are BCA rules, WPA rules for 8ball.
Ok, so added them to the list to learn.
Then I found out about 9Ball.. ok, played that.
Late to find the movie, The Hustler.. wow, straight pool.. cool game.
14.1 added...
Then one day, WPA decided the small ball game I grew up with needed another ruleset... Blackball.
Ok, geez... another ruleset, and at least the tables, cloth are the same... oh wait, nevermind...
A few trips to the USA, work, fun, came across 1 pocket and bank pool...
Then WPA released 10 Ball....
And, on these trips found 8ft tables, 7ft bar box tables..
Started to notice different pocket sizes, drops, cloth types..
At least the ball size was the same, phew.....
Then I moved to Australia.... ok, Sydney seems to have some....wtf!! Some weird hybrid tables from Amarda that are like 2 shot small ball tables, but the white is bigger than the object ball... no rounded pockets, but square cut like the American tables.... and, what the hell are these rules? Can't shoot backwards from the line if the white ball goes in... what the hell.... ok, well, I live here now, guess I will learn this as well...
A few years later.... someone imports some 7ft Brunswick Metro bar boxes and a VNEA league starts up.
Cool, and ..... oh, the rules are different again from BCA, WPA... ok, at least the table is some what the same standard from the range I played on...
Won a couple of times, went to Las Vegas and played on Valley tables... as open as a hookers legs, but hey, everyone has to play on them right.. lol
More trips to the USA, New York, Houston, Huntsville. Some extended work trips, so I get into weekly comps, challenge matches and having a good time.. the Americans are the friendliest gamblers, I beat them, they pay me money, and beer, then want to show me other poolhalls, new players and what's this..... APA league?
Ok, so this must be like the VNEA... oh wait, nevermind... so, I played in a team for a bit.
Weird ass rules in APA and a broken handicap system... at least the tables were the same.
So, back in Sydney... and, I help educate a couple of players who knew nothing about pool and equipment, as by now I am well travelled and have played every form of pool known to man!!! (Almost..)
They start a new business, CueWorld.
During their time, they start getting exclusive deals on big brands, etc... one was Diamond tables.
Soon after, Diamond league is formed in Sydney. Cool, nice new tables.
Wow, these play different and new pocket cuts, drops, and weird ass cushions... as I know now, red label was early gear and now blue label has fixed issues.
The Diamond League, used BCAPL as its basis.... wait, another ruleset!!!
So, learned that as well...
Along this journey, I was on multiple association boards, and have watched for decades as they all try and destroy each other... still going on, even now... Blackball has split in two for example.


So, now I feel like I have played every pool game, every table type.


So, the point is and my question is as follows:
As a sponsor, TV, which one of these pool games should I sink money into?
Tough question isn't it......
And this is why is Pool has problems
Vs
Snooker, which has sorted itself out.

Until ONE pool game is chosen.
With ONE set of rules.
With ONE set of equipment specifications.
It will NEVER be mainstream and won't EVER compete with Snooker.

I enjoyed writing this post, brought back lot's of pool memories.
Ha ha.

My 2 cents:
The one game should be, as most players around the World know it and will watch it is...
Drum roll.
8 Ball.
WPA rules.
Orange 5 ball. Part of the standard colors for decades.
4.5 corner pockets, middle pockets from 2022 Mosconi.
Make angles, template standard.. just like Snooker has templates.
Simonis cloth.
Standardise slate drops.
Aramtih Balls, 2 1/4.
Break box, from World 8ball 2022.

Give this 5 years, you will have standardised pool.



And during this 30 years, I played Snooker and it was the same in every country.
 
Last edited:
Fatboy said:
Stu,

Sorry I didn’t see you at Mcup

Yes you are correct pool isn’t difficult to understand. The ball goes in or it doesn’t in the eyes of a non-player. It’s a true/false occurrence. Just like cornhole.

However as a player and a knowledgeable pool player and fan you and I both know that what the interesting part about pool for “us” is did he get shape? What shot did he choose, did he hit it good, was it a difficult shot, how difficult was it, was it a good idea or a bad idea, was it the right ball. And so on. That’s the interesting part of pool and why you and I can watch pool for many hours and not get bored.

Similar to chess, for chess players.

When I watch chess and see the Queen’s traded I know that’s a normal thing. Equal trade. When someone hangs their Queen it’s pretty much loss of game. Anything else is Chinese to me. So I can’t fully appreciate chess. But yes I know the rules and “understand” it-kinda.

That’s my point. Pool is just too complex for a casual viewer. After watching a few balls go in or not they get bored. Unless they have deeper knowledge. Typically they don’t.

Hope your well, see you at Derby

Fatboy😃😃
Click to expand...
Also, when you are watching great players, they make it look easy. And to your point, that's because people just see the object ball go in the pocket and miss the skill and artistry in getting shape, executing different strokes, etc. Billy Incardona was great at pointing this out--when shots looked easy but weren't and the finesse strokes required when necessary to get shape on a particular ball.
 
telinoz said:
I would argue pool has been around for decades, as much as Snooker.
In fact, the US has had a much bigger audience and population vs UK for pool.

Here is the big point though.
Rules, equipment.
For Snooker, they stabilised that a long time before Matchroom was around.
So, the public, the players, all had to contend with one thing only.

Now pool, wow... I grew up in the UK, 7ft tables, the small ball game... consistent, but so many rulesets that you had to jump from one to other. Lots of associations, leagues all claiming to be the real game.
Now, when moved to Scotland, again more rulesets.. but at least the table and balls were the same.
Then one day, a new Riley's room opened up and there were 9ft American pool tables. How exciting!
I played on them, using my 8ball rules I liked the most... then found out, there are BCA rules, WPA rules for 8ball.
Ok, so added them to the list to learn.
Then I found out about 9Ball.. ok, played that.
Late to find the movie, The Hustler.. wow, straight pool.. cool game.
14.1 added...
Then one day, WPA decided the small ball game I grew up with needed another ruleset... Blackball.
Ok, geez... another ruleset, and at least the tables, cloth are the same... oh wait, nevermind...
A few trips to the USA, work, fun, came across 1 pocket and bank pool...
Then WPA released 10 Ball....
And, on these trips found 8ft tables, 7ft bar box tables..
Started to notice different pocket sizes, drops, cloth types..
At least the ball size was the same, phew.....
Then I moved to Australia.... ok, Sydney seems to have some....wtf!! Some weird hybrid tables from Amarda that are like 2 shot small ball tables, but the white is bigger than the object ball... no rounded pockets, but square cut like the American tables.... and, what the hell are these rules? Can't shoot backwards from the line if the white ball goes in... what the hell.... ok, well, I live here now, guess I will learn this as well...
A few years later.... someone imports some 7ft Brunswick Metro bar boxes and a VNEA league starts up.
Cool, and ..... oh, the rules are different again from BCA, WPA... ok, at least the table is some what the same standard from the range I played on...
Won a couple of times, went to Las Vegas and played on Valley tables... as open as a hookers legs, but hey, everyone has to play on them right.. lol
More trips to the USA, New York, Houston, Huntsville. Some extended work trips, so I get into weekly comps, challenge matches and having a good time.. the Americans are the friendliest gamblers, I beat them, they pay me money, and beer, then want to show me other poolhalls, new players and what's this..... APA league?
Ok, so this must be like the VNEA... oh wait, nevermind... so, I played in a team for a bit.
Weird ass rules in APA and a broken handicap system... at least the tables were the same.
So, back in Sydney... and, I help educate a couple of players who knew nothing about pool and equipment, as by now I am well travelled and have played every form of pool known to man!!! (Almost..)
They start a new business, CueWorld.
During their time, they start getting exclusive deals on big brands, etc... one was Diamond tables.
Soon after, Diamond league is formed in Sydney. Cool, nice new tables.
Wow, these play different and new pocket cuts, drops, and weird ass cushions... as I know now, red label was early gear and now blue label has fixed issues.
The Diamond League, used BCAPL as its basis.... wait, another ruleset!!!
So, learned that as well...
Along this journey, I was on multiple association boards, and have watched for decades as they all try and destroy each other... still going on, even now... Blackball has split in two for example.


So, now I feel like I have played every pool game, every table type.


So, the point is and my question is as follows:
As a sponsor, TV, which one of these pool games should I sink money into?
Tough question isn't it......
And this is why is Pool has problems
Vs
Snooker, which has sorted itself out.

Until ONE pool game is chosen.
With ONE set of rules.
With ONE set of equipment specifications.
It will NEVER be mainstream and won't EVER compete with Snooker.

I enjoyed writing this post, brought back lot's of pool memories.
Ha ha.

My 2 cents:
The one game should be, as most players around the World know it and will watch it is...
Drum roll.
8 Ball.
WPA rules.
Orange 5 ball. Part of the standard colors for decades.
4.5 corner pockets, middle pockets from 2022 Mosconi.
Make angles, template standard.. just like Snooker has templates.
Simonis cloth.
Standardise slate drops.
Aramtih Balls, 2 1/4.
Break box, from World 8ball 2022.

Give this 5 years, you will have standardised pool.
Click to expand...

Nice history.

I remember when 8-ball was big as a game. I played it well because I understood the strategy.

Today 9-ball is the new game and as you are suggesting Matchroom is in the process of standardizing that game
with its nineball. branding.

With Predator Group doing 10-ball, Matchroom doing 9-ball those games are similar but they are being branded
differently with different races and scoring but it's still rotation pool which seem popular and
on that popular note the two YouTube channels have a combined 385k subscribers.

385k is a drop in the bucket to the numbers of subscribers there could be considering the market numbers and 8-ball is
still virtually unused in American Pool except for Amateurs. I like 8-ball but I wouldn't start anything at this time in this low
subscriber environment other than 9-ball.

My feelings are that Predator and CSI are going to have to dig in and let things build.

This thread is a testament to Pool in general, its herding cats.

Not one person has said, Hey Robin that is a great idea perhaps we should share those videos. Not one person.

This is just how pool players are, if there isn't anything in it for them, then it's time to tell the world how they think it
should be rather than support what we have. This tells me that it will be roughly 6 to 8 years before the viewership
levels get to where they need to be in order to support sponsorships that could come into pool raising the bar.
 
Last edited:
I would like to see what the impact would be if espn or nbc would carry the Mosconi Cup one year.
Maybe it wouldn't do much. I don't know.

Many years ago the Chicago Blackhawks were owned by Bill Wirtz. Wirtz was voted to be the worst owner in SPORTS history, not just hockey.
He blacked out every game unless it was a sellout -which NEVER happened. People didn't see the games on tv, therefore didn't know the players or care about the team much at all. The day that POS died, his son took over and put every game from that day forward on television. The fan base grew exponentially almost immediately and a constant string of sold out games followed along with jersey sales, Stanley cups, etc.

It is my hope that once exposed to pro pool, especially in a MC atmosphere, more interest in the game would be generated in the US.
It won't take off like crazy but MR constantly blocking Americans from seeing their team compete on a world stage isn't doing pool in the US any favors.
jmho
 
JolietJames said:
It is my hope that once exposed to pro pool, especially in a MC atmosphere, more interest in the game would be generated in the US.
It won't take off like crazy but MR constantly blocking Americans from seeing their team compete on a world stage isn't doing pool in the US any favors.
jmho
Click to expand...

I understood the story, you made a point but consider this:

Matchroom has always made Pool available to the US audience that is willing to pay for it.
They have a business model.
ESPN from my understanding doesn't pay for content so its unlikely you'll see Pool on ESPN.
It may be free exposure but that doesn't pay the bills.

Nothing wrong with paying for something you want. Matchroom was to the pay per view long
before anyone else and they developed world class title tournaments offering employment for
the highest number of players of any promoter worldwide. Now they say they have a plan to
make things even better. I don't pretend to understand how, but its admirable. From what I
see of the grassroots viewership market on YouTube, I wouldn't attempt it for a long time. US Pool
is way behind Matchroom and it's going to take time to build it. We probably have the largest number
of Amateur Players in one place in the world and few of them know about Professional Pool. That
hurts us and it's holding back the rest of the Pool world which gets me back to "Why not share the
pool videos we have?" We are in control of Pools future if we watch it and promote it.
 
336Robin said:
We are in control of Pools future if we watch it and promote it.
Click to expand...

Sadly, there just aren’t enough of “us“.

Watching pool is simply boring to those who don’t understand it at a reasonably high level. Even relatively enthusiastic casual players don’t understand many of the subtle intricacies of great play.
 
336Robin said:
Matchroom has always made Pool available to the US audience that is willing to pay for it.
Click to expand...
If you subscribe to Dazn?

I tried that once. I work,have kids and play league. The content was gone before I could view it.

I don't mind paying for content but I need it delivered in a way I can view it,at my leisure. Seems doable this day and age but I'm no tech geek.
 
Matchroom getting the MC playing on tvs in all the league venues during league night seems a no Brainerd to me if you're wanting to promote it and build the brand.
 
Cuedup said:
If you subscribe to Dazn?

I tried that once. I work,have kids and play league. The content was gone before I could view it.

I don't mind paying for content but I need it delivered in a way I can view it,at my leisure. Seems doable this day and age but I'm no tech geek.
Click to expand...

I rarely go here but there is Matchroom live on demand.

I have a free account there--free---

I imagine there is also a fair amount available for purchase. I rarely go there but since you mentioned it, I logged in and
I'm looking around now to see what they have.
 
336Robin said:
I understood the story, you made a point but consider this:

Matchroom has always made Pool available to the US audience that is willing to pay for it.
They have a business model.
ESPN from my understanding doesn't pay for content so its unlikely you'll see Pool on ESPN.
It may be free exposure but that doesn't pay the bills.

Nothing wrong with paying for something you want. Matchroom was to the pay per view long
before anyone else and they developed world class title tournaments offering employment for
the highest number of players of any promoter worldwide. Now they say they have a plan to
make things even better. I don't pretend to understand how, but its admirable. From what I
see of the grassroots viewership market on YouTube, I wouldn't attempt it for a long time. US Pool
is way behind Matchroom and it's going to take time to build it. We probably have the largest number
of Amateur Players in one place in the world and few of them know about Professional Pool. That
hurts us and it's holding back the rest of the Pool world which gets me back to "Why not share the
pool videos we have?" We are in control of Pools future if we watch it and promote it.
Click to expand...
Agreed. Matchroom makes the MC available for the 0.1% of the population who are already fans of the sport, the cup, and paying extra for a spotty stream.
I am of the opinion that if the MC aired on regular cable TV one time, it would be introduced to people outside of that 0.1% of America.
This could possibly lead to new fans, players, and consumers.
I understand it is a pipe dream.
Carry on.
 
Ha, ha....I don't even know 1000 people. Much less have 1000 friends. Plus, I'm not on Facebook, and to the best of my knowledge, none of my friends are either. And, none of them are pool players.

I guess I'm not much help. :confused:
 
Used to watch a lot of matches on TV back in the mid 80s when Hopkins was an announcer. A friend and myself would watch and try to figure out what the next shot would be. It was fun and helpful to learn how the pros think about or look at what's on the table.
We were often surprised at the dificult shots and safeties they would choose and make.
 
I love Pool and watch a lot of it though fully agree with the comparison to watching Chess sans understanding of the finer points. Pool really does take a trained eye to understand and appreciate what is transpiring on the table.

That being said, Pool isn't the only boring game to watch on TV. I find most sports to be boring on TV, in particular, auto racing, golf, baseball and soccer. Good Lord those games are boring though will tune in for the back 9 nine at Augusta, baseball playoffs and maybe even a World Cup soccer game. It's the significance and excitement of those big events that pulls me in. Mosconi Cup has that going for it too, I think, and probably would be palatable to non pool fans if introduced to them. Is too bad ESPN has never picked up Mosconi Cup; ESPN+ would work for that I would think.

Pool's best shot is probably going to end up being in Europe where there is seemingly a small ripple of momentum with the presence of competitive Billiards clubs and academies that develop youth. That coupled with a push from Matchroom could bring more money and attention to the EuroTour. Youth development and a proper tour definitely don't seem likely in USA where pool halls are steadily disappearing.

One thing I do find interesting about watching pool is the diversity of the participants. A lot of different backgrounds, sizes, ages and genders of players which is really unique to pool. Love that about it.
 
telinoz said:
It has always been pretty straightforward to me.
For cuesports, compare how these two present themselves, which one is more professional.
Same table, balls, ruleset.... stability.

Snooker
Vs
Pool

Why do you think Snooker has more coverage... take all the time you need.
Click to expand...
The single greatest selling point of snooker is its simplicity. I recall the first time I watched it in the mid 1980s. It didn't take me very long to understand it.

If there is even one red on the table, the incoming player must begin with a red and then must shoot reds and colors in alternation until all the reds are gone, after which the balls are played in order of numerical value. One need never call a shot, for any red made in any pocket counts. The game of snooker is simplicity itself, and even my 88-year-old grandmother, who had never even seen a snooker table, understood it when she watched. Snooker players present themselves with elegance and grace and are well accepted.

Pool has always been a moving target, and the non-call-shot game of nine ball is it's best shot by far because it has snooker-like simplicity. Still, even in nine-ball, pool has failed to standardize the game and its equipment. Pocket specs, jump shots and cues, ball colors and breaking rules change regularly to the game's detriment. Countless members of the pool community have suggested that they cannot shoot effectively in anything but leisurely clothes, but this argument doesn't hold up to scrutiny given the fact that snooker players shoot straighter than pool players.

Fans of cue sports want the game to look elegant and be simple to follow. Snooker is already there, but pool is not.
 
mattydrva said:
I love Pool and watch a lot of it though fully agree with the comparison to watching Chess sans understanding of the finer points. Pool really does take a trained eye to understand and appreciate what is transpiring on the table.

That being said, Pool isn't the only boring game to watch on TV. I find most sports to be boring on TV, in particular, auto racing, golf, baseball and soccer. Good Lord those games are boring though will tune in for the back 9 nine at Augusta, baseball playoffs and maybe even a World Cup soccer game. It's the significance and excitement of those big events that pulls me in. Mosconi Cup has that going for it too, I think, and probably would be palatable to non pool fans if introduced to them. Is too bad ESPN has never picked up Mosconi Cup; ESPN+ would work for that I would think.

Pool's best shot is probably going to end up being in Europe where there is seemingly a small ripple of momentum with the presence of competitive Billiards clubs and academies that develop youth. That coupled with a push from Matchroom could bring more money and attention to the EuroTour. Youth development and a proper tour definitely don't seem likely in USA where pool halls are steadily disappearing.

One thing I do find interesting about watching pool is the diversity of the participants. A lot of different backgrounds, sizes, ages and genders of players which is really unique to pool. Love that about it.
Click to expand...
I enjoy watching golf tennis football baseball and I've never played any of them. Pool is only watchable by somebody who is already initiated in the game. To be honest, most pool players aren't even that interested in watching pool.
 
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