the problem with pool and the mainstream

AzDave said:
> The point I'm trying to make here is that there are a lot of your self described "bar bangers", "social shooters", and "league players" that don't give a rat's a$$ if anyone out there ever makes a dime off of shooting pool. All they wanna do is enjoy the game in their own little enviroment. <

That kind of thinkin' has ruined pool...and politics! Namby pamby momma's boys don't inspire. Better to be from the Roosevelt school, 'walk softly and carry a big stick'.


I don't think that is totally true. More along the lines of the players can not relate to the pros.

Sure I love watching a good match on ESPN or youtube. But if you are not a tournament player and/or never play on 9 footers. How can the average player relate? Thats where I think pools biggest problem is. Majority of pool players in America, play on a 7ft'. Have the pros play on them too! I played football, so i'll pay for tickets to go watch a pro game. Same goes for baseball. I've never played in a tournament on 9ft tables, so why the hell would I pay to go watch them play?

Better then that, I could honestly say that I would pay for 'pay per view'. To watch the APA team and single finals in 8ball, 9ball, and Masters.

P.S. I'm talking about America, not the world. Internationally I get the feeling that most play on 9's. I find it hard to believe the same goes for the U.S.
 
I guess it depends on your area. An area with plenty of bars but no real pool halls might end up with a lot of bar box shooters, but in our area most of the shooters shoot at actual pool halls on 9 foot tables.

It really also depends on how you define a 'player'. A guy who plays pool every single time he goes to the bar probably isn't a player. He's just a barfly who happens to choose pool to pass the time while he's there. If the pool table weren't there he'd still be going to the bar and might not bother hunting for a pool game elsewhere. Maybe it seems too strict to say this guy isn't a player, but I feel that people who play pool for the sake of playing pool (and not as a way to keep their hands busy while they socialize and drink)... those people will find 9 footers and play on them.

No offense to you if you consider yourself a player but somehow never get to try a 9 footer. But if you think you might be even a little serious about pool, you owe it to yourself to play on real tables, even if it means an hour drive.

I think I've wandered off the topic a bit, was the idea pretty much that lack of even a standard table size is hurting pool's popularity? Because I'm pretty sure we've standardized serious tournament play on 9 footers, and the popularity of pool would not be helped if 7 footers weren't an option. All those bars that might have barely fit a bar box would instead invest in air hockey or something if we never made anything smaller than 9 feet.
 
You're right, I can see that table sizes most played on are different from area to area. I am a player and not some 'bar fly', i'm in 4 leagues 3apa 1money. I'm actually a moderate player, the real serious guys are in 6+ leagues. Most shoot 7 days a week, and most of the leagues around here are on 7's. Sure there are a few tournies and money leagues played on 9's, the point being most of the organized pool around here is played on a 7 foot table. Don't get me wrong, I loved playing on 9's when i was in college. Had a pool hall right by school and another 5 min. from the house. Sorry but it gets alittle boring seeing the same 20 or 30 guys in the pool hall. It's nice to be in a league with thousands of players and getting to see new faces.

I thought the topic was how do we mainstream pool. Well, the NFL might add an extra game to the schedule so one game can be played in another country. The are trying add more fans to the sport, which in return will add more money.

My thought was to just find a way to get more fans in the seats. IMO i would pay to see Gabe vs Corey on a 7 footer, I wouldn't pay as much to see it on a 9. I spend more time on a 7, thats what i can relate to.
 
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Maniac said:
I personally wouldn't care if there wasn't even the existence of professional pool. I feel the same way about professional football, baseball, basketball, etc. There are many others in this country who feel like I do.

That's fine, but there are many others who do not feel like you do, at least about football, baseball. etc. The point being that, a large part of the population does gain from the existence of professional sports. It's quite enjoyable to watch highly skilled athletes at the top of their game. And, when it's well organized, there's a lot of drama, a lot of prestige, a sense that something important is at stake, "the thrill of victory, the agony of defeat"...

Now, you may not personally enjoy this. But understand that you're not everyone, so if you don't see the appeal in professional sports in general, that doesn't mean there's no appeal. Man does not like by bread alone, as they say, and you could just as easily write off other forms of entertainment, movies, literature, music, arts, etc.

Also, the case for a pro pool tour is not based on some moral principle that anyone who is good at anything deserves huge sums of money. I personally would like to see pool pros make a lot, but that's besides the point. A pro pool tour would be rewarding for people who are not pros or even good players. Why should there be an NBA? Because fans like it; that's it. Pool could be another great professional sport, and it would be beneficial for fans and pro players alike.

The real question is why pool and not something else like say hot-dog eating or tiddlywinks. And the answer is that pool is a great sport (game, whatever, names don't matter). It's sophisticated, requires a lot of precision and knowledge, and can be very exciting to watch. The general public doesn't understand this, but the people on this board do. But, the general public COULD appreciate pool in this way, after all, a LOT of people like playing pool, and not just a little, even bangers and social players REALLY like playing.

However, as you point out, a lot of casual or even somewhat serious players don't like to watch pool though, and that's the problem. Of course, some people just don't like pro sports period, and that's fine. But the people that need to be reached are people who like playing pool and also like pro sports, but don't like watching pool as a pro sport. That's the target audience, and it's a big group (probably the majority of casual players).

Who can blame them for not watching pro pool? They've never been given the chance, really. I mean, you wouldn't get too many football fans if the games were broadcast two months after they occurred, with amateurish production and Mitch Laurance commentating, and with parts of the game cut out to fit into a one hour time slot. Some people claim pool can never be a big pro televised sport, but what is this based on? Bad ratings for the ESPN2 junk? The failure of the IPT? That means nothing. The only instances I'm aware of of cue sports being broadcast live and well commentated are snooker in the UK and 9-ball in Asia. And, guess what, it goes over pretty well in both places.

And, contrary to what seems to be the consensus, pool is not inherently bad for TV. Look at golf, hugely popular, but perhaps the worst TV sport imaginable: most of the time nothing happens, and then you get to see a guy swing a club, followed by cheers, a flash of the sky, and a tiny white ball dropping onto a sea of green. The short game is better for TV, but it's still mostly the suspense rather than the visual appeal of a rolling ball that makes it enjoyable (and BTW I like watching golf).

In contrast, with pool, first of all, the physics involved are more arguably more interesting since there are collisions, angles, more precise control of spin, etc. But more important, you can actually appreciate everything that's going on on TV, because there's no wind or slope of the green that you need the commentator to tell you about. And on power shots, like the break, you can see what happens, rather than thinking wow, that looks like a good drive let's see how long until they switch camera angles so I can find out how far the ball went. Given a real chance, pool will flourish.
 
Bugz said:
Sure I love watching a good match on ESPN or youtube. But if you are not a tournament player and/or never play on 9 footers. How can the average player relate? Thats where I think pools biggest problem is. Majority of pool players in America, play on a 7ft'.


Bugz, you hit the nail on the head. The tavern table is the reason for the ruination of american pool. To suggest the pros play on 7ft tables is definately not the answer.

The reason the europeans and pinoys have surpassed the americans is because they play on tough equipment and have the determination to get good at pool.

Whereas the majority of americans would rather play on a short table with grand canyons and oceans for pockets because its easy and makes them feel good they can make a ball.

In case you cant tell I personally think the bar boxes are a significant cause to the problem of pool and the mainstream.

If you could ask Dave Matlock, or Buddy Hall (2 of the greatest bar box players ever) if they think pool on bar tables is real pool. There answer would be "No, it's not".
 
Scottster said:
Bugz, you hit the nail on the head. The tavern table is the reason for the ruination of american pool. To suggest the pros play on 7ft tables is definately not the answer.

The reason the europeans and pinoys have surpassed the americans is because they play on tough equipment and have the determination to get good at pool.

Whereas the majority of americans would rather play on a short table with grand canyons and oceans for pockets because its easy and makes them feel good they can make a ball.

In case you cant tell I personally think the bar boxes are a significant cause to the problem of pool and the mainstream.

If you could ask Dave Matlock, or Buddy Hall (2 of the greatest bar box players ever) if they think pool on bar tables is real pool. There answer would be "No, it's not".

What are you attacking me for, i never said one table was more challenging then the other. Bash the bar box players all you want. You say a 9 is harder and I say the 7ft diamonds we have in our bar are harder. You get all the room in the world and I have to work around clusters. We can go back and forth all day. You work patterns and I have to break balls out.

And you are very wrong on the 'pockets are canyons' i find it a hell of alot easier to pocket a ball on a GC then on the Diamond Smart.

This is off topic, the point was how do we bring more money into pool. Well there is a shit load of revenue out there waiting. Us terrible shooters, looking for the easy way out, barbox players, that could never hang with the big bad 9ft players. Go ahead and be stubborn and there will never be a pro circuit in America.
 
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It's not the barbox that killed American pool,

it's the stubborn, greedy, and looking for a quick buck people, that ruined pool.
 
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First of all I wasn't attacking you personally. I will never back down on my feelings toward the bar table. If the majority of american pool players competed on the 9-foot tables, this country would have a surplus of great players to contend with the best of the other countries on the standard table size of world wide competitive pool.

I am not going to enter a table size argument. Worldwide, the standard size for top level competition is the 4 1/2 x 9.

The diamond tables are NOT the standard bar table across America. You know very well that the valley is and the pockets are enormous.

It is a fact that the majority of players that start playing on a Valley bar table, over the age of 16, will never make the transition to a full size table because they think "there is too much green" and it attacks their ego so they stay away from them.

My point here is, in europe and the phillipines, they learn from the start to play on the 9' table. That is why they have surpassed the overall level of competition of the Americans.

Again, my intentions were not to offend you personally, and I am sorry you took it that way.
 
Scottster said:
Bugz, you hit the nail on the head. The tavern table is the reason for the ruination of american pool. To suggest the pros play on 7ft tables is definately not the answer.

The reason the europeans and pinoys have surpassed the americans is because they play on tough equipment and have the determination to get good at pool.

Whereas the majority of americans would rather play on a short table with grand canyons and oceans for pockets because its easy and makes them feel good they can make a ball.

In case you cant tell I personally think the bar boxes are a significant cause to the problem of pool and the mainstream.

If you could ask Dave Matlock, or Buddy Hall (2 of the greatest bar box players ever) if they think pool on bar tables is real pool. There answer would be "No, it's not".


Having spent many hours in the car with both David and Buddy individually I can tell you that they definitely feel that pool on bar tables is very much "real" pool.

Barboxes and specifically the leagues that play on them are about the only thing that keeps the accessory side of the industry alive. If a pro player gets a sponsorship from anyone in the billiard industry but a table manufacturer it is because that company is making money selling to league players or those that service them.

You will find in many successful poolrooms it's the barboxes that pay the bills.

Pool would not be nearly as popular as it is if it weren't for the existence of 7ft tables. Try and understand that it takes a much bigger space to accommodate a 9ft table than it does to accommodate an 7ft table.

I agree with the person who said that the pro tour should be on bar boxes. Why not? I guarantee you that the finals in the VNEA, BCA, ACS, and APA have as much or more drama than any professional match ever played.

You want more money in pool then get more people in it.

If the pros want to have a viable tour that sustains them then they had better do it themselves. The WPBA did it themselves, they didn't have a magic benefactor.

But the WPBA isn't filled with players who exemplify the gunfighter. Male players are "on their own" as soon as they take that first road trip. They have developed a "me first" instinct because everywhere they went as players somebody wanted to rob them figuratively and literally.

What is Keith McCready more famous for? His tournament victories or his legendary match-ups? (at least to us in the know - to others it's TCOM)

The point is that the reason pool is disorganized is because that is how it has evolved in the USA. For some reason in the USA there is a long history of breakaway organizations and different games, rules, and equipment all vying to establish themselves as the standard.

Pool in America absolutely represents the American spirit. It is free to shape and twist as any organization wants to and no one cares.
 
John Barton said:
Having spent many hours in the car with both David and Buddy individually I can tell you that they definitely feel that pool on bar tables is very much "real" pool.

Interesting, I have had them both tell me in conversation the opposite.



I agree with the person who said that the pro tour should be on bar boxes.

If this ever occurs, it will definately give me more time to go fishing. Because I will quit pool. You will never EVER see a PGA event on a Par 3 course.

I have come to terms that the bar table has become part of the american pool culture. Does that mean I have to like it, or play on them? No.

Again, if the bar table would never have been introduced, new players would have to learn to play on the 9 foot tables and the USA would have a whole array of Shane Van Boening's, Landon Shuffet's, and Austin Murphy's ready to take on the rest of the world's competition.

Keep in mind, I am not bashing bar table player's (I am bashing the idea of a pro tour on a tavern table though). I realize the amatuer players that play on the bar tables are what support businesses such as your case business (best of luck with it BTW) but I will always feel the way I do about the Valley bar tables.
 
Do you feel it is the responsibility of the business owner to advertise the sport of billiards or the players?

I only ask because I face a similar dilemma where I work. And when you place responsibility on the players to draw in crowds it does not work as well as when the crowds are aware of a particular event.

I consider it well above my responsibility to headhunt because I have to focus on providing a service to those in the know.
 
CreeDo said:
Not quite on topic but not off either:

Can anyone think of a game or major sport that was huge and then almost completely died out? I can't, but I'm young and dunno how to research something like that. I know some games have changed beyond recognition (pool maybe is a good example).

I don't think it's ever gonna die so it seems like we shouldn't wring our hands too much. The popularity of sports seems to come and go in cycles. Good organization and marketing helps, but ultimately it boils down to little things beyond our control, or bits of luck. The last big surges in pool came from movies. That seems so random... it seems like pool will rise or fall due to things that we probably can't even guess at, and without any regard for how much care we put into something like standardizing the rules & equipment. The casual spectator doesn't know or care about those things, and they're the ones who define how popular it is.
Bid Whist (sp?) a card game that was played worldwide. Replaced by Contract Bridge. Check your local Sunday paper... I'll bet they run a column on Bridge! Some papers run a column everyday. Also check the sports section to see if there is a listing of results for pool tournaments. Seventy years ago such reporting was common.
 
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