The smoothness of Efren's stroke in slow motion

[X Breaker]

I am not sure if this has been covered here, I came across this on my friend's web site, www.eXcues.com.

This is a video featuring Efren's stroke from various angle with slow motions. The person standing next to Efren is Jack Isomoto, owner of Cosmo Sports in Japan.

I had the pleasure of talking to Kuo (3rd place in 2004 WPC, 2nd place WPC 2005) from Chinese Taipei about deflection, power shots and things like that. I asked him why he did not use 314 shaft--he is playing with a Samsara cue with a regular Samsara shaft. I asked Efren this same question before in the Derby, he told me he could not make a ball with a 314. Bustamenta told me the same thing.

What Kuo told me what that most players are hitting the ball way too hard. That is why they pay so much attention to "deflection."

He said if the ball is striked softer, but smoothly, the cue ball does not really have too much squirt. He said it is when the player forces the ball and hit with a "non smooth" stroke, that he/she needs to really adjust for deflection. Part of the reason is because the cue ball is not given time to curve back.

I asked him how he adjusts for deflection when he has to hit the ball hard. He demonstrated a few shots to me, and explained to me that hitting the ball too hard was pretty much useless. He said if you can smoothly follow through, you can get so much spin on the cue ball without hitting the ball hard. And when you can hit the ball smoothly like that, you will stop worrying about deflection.

He told me to watch Bustamenta. Kuo told me he really likes Bustamenta's game and he has learnt a lot from watching him.

When I watched the stroke of Efren, I notice how smooth he is with his back swing, just exactly as what Kuo showed me.

Kuo also told me I have a very short stroke, which is common among those coming from a snooker background. He suggested that I open up my stroke, and try to be more smooth wit more follow through without thinking too much about keeping the elbow up or that kind of things. He said there are shots I will not be able to make consistently if I only use the short stroke.

I was very confused but I think I am starting to understand a bit more about what he meant, especially after watching this video.

I just want to share my thoughts with everyone here.

Thank you.

Richard

 

[Rod]

I am not sure if this has been covered here, I came across this on my friend's web site, www.eXcues.com.

This is a video featuring Efren's stroke from various angle with slow motions. The person standing next to Efren is Jack Isomoto, owner of Cosmo Sports in Japan.

I had the pleasure of talking to Kuo (3rd place in 2004 WPC, 2nd place WPC 2005) from Chinese Taipei about deflection, power shots and things like that. I asked him why he did not use 314 shaft--he is playing with a Samsara cue with a regular Samsara shaft. I asked Efren this same question before in the Derby, he told me he could not make a ball with a 314. Bustamenta told me the same thing.

What Kuo told me what that most players are hitting the ball way too hard. That is why they pay so much attention to "deflection."

He said if the ball is striked softer, but smoothly, the cue ball does not really have too much squirt. He said it is when the player forces the ball and hit with a "non smooth" stroke, that he/she needs to really adjust for deflection. Part of the reason is because the cue ball is not given time to curve back.

I asked him how he adjusts for deflection when he has to hit the ball hard. He demonstrated a few shots to me, and explained to me that hitting the ball too hard was pretty much useless. He said if you can smoothly follow through, you can get so much spin on the cue ball without hitting the ball hard. And when you can hit the ball smoothly like that, you will stop worrying about deflection.

He told me to watch Bustamenta. Kuo told me he really likes Bustamenta's game and he has learnt a lot from watching him.

When I watched the stroke of Efren, I notice how smooth he is with his back swing, just exactly as what Kuo showed me.

Kuo also told me I have a very short stroke, which is common among those coming from a snooker background. He suggested that I open up my stroke, and try to be more smooth wit more follow through without thinking too much about keeping the elbow up or that kind of things. He said there are shots I will not be able to make consistently if I only use the short stroke.

I was very confused but I think I am starting to understand a bit more about what he meant, especially after watching this video.

I just want to share my thoughts with everyone here.

Thank you.

Richard

I think Mr Kuo is wise beyond his years. He stated perfectly why so many players struggle with their game. Honestly it's not rocket science why some balls go and others miss the mark by a wide margin.

If you're smooth in your delivery and shoot with less force as Kuo stated you can count on whitey going exactly where you aim. You can also count on hitting whitey exactly where you're at at address.

When I taught I would always try to find a way of conveying this to the student. If they didn't "get it" one way I'd us another method. The way I had most sucess was to tell and show them what happens during a good stroke.

I won't go into all details, and there is more, but visualize the cue tip on your backswing as point A, the cue ball as point B, and your finish as point C.
A-------B-------C Your job is to accelerate the cue very smooth to point B and let it continue "naturally" to point C. Point C is your destination "not point B". The cue ball only gets in the way of you're final destination.

The problem that occurs with most pool players, they have the wrong destination. LOL In an effort (believe me effort is what you don't want) to "hit" (another bad term and over used) the cue ball, their arm/grip gets tight and they fall well short of the real destination. That one would look similar to this.
A-------B--C

That's the old punch stroke or jab what ever you prefer to call em. You're not stable with a violent move either, so if the poor stroke does not make you miss the deflection surely will. Add to that you can't count on swerve as Kuo mentions as well.

At any rate all you looking for game improvement, look no farther than good fundamentals with a sweet smooth stroke. Mr Kuo smacked the nail dead nuts on the head.

Rod

 

[Solartje]

sorry but i just have to post it :s

im probably one of those guys who's not getting it, thats ok, as long as someone explains it to me.

when i see the video:

first shot:
his arms/elbow moves from inside to a more outside position. u can even see where his cue is close to his face that it has moved. before it was close to under his chin, at the end it has moved right under his right eye.

he shoots the shot center ball, but at the end of the movement his tip seems to be more to the left (if seen from in front).

second shot: his heads is moving upwards during the stroke. his body is moving forward during the stroke.

third shot: his elbow go's up and down alot. and again same thing happens. his elbow is inwards a bit, but then he straightens it on the final stroke. his wrist seems to bend inwards too when pulling back, and then going back to another position on the final stroke. (probably this makes his tip move at the end to another position then if it was hit center ball like he was aiming for)
wont show pictures of this, just look the final stroke.

alot of these things seem to be contrary to what ive been told.
stable body movement, dont move your head or stand up to fast, dont have your elbow inwards or outwords but straight in line of the shot, not TO much elbow dropping, nothing more then is naturally needed...

so can someone explain me why his stroke should be an example for me or others? id prefere a neil robertson stroke... what am i not getting guys?

ps im a BIG efren fan, he seems to be a nice guy, one of the greatest players around and i respect him alot. dont say i dont, but i want to learn what the fuzz is about his stroke.. :s

im not getting it

 

[rukiddingme]

Head position different because of aim method? Use of pivot method?
Use of backhand english?...only the magician knows.
ruk

 

[crosseyedjoe]

I think the way Mr. Kou explained it should clarify your confusion.

"Kuo also told me I have a very short stroke, which is common among those coming from a snooker background. He suggested that I open up my stroke, and try to be more smooth wit more follow through without thinking too much about keeping the elbow up or that kind of things. He said there are shots I will not be able to make consistently if I only use the short stroke."

It's a matter of having known the fundamental of hitting the contact points and by how much deflection of the straight path. Efren makes his adjustments on the back-swing. That is why they call the stroke "flowery;" something is happening during the back-swing.

It's a hard technique to teach because you have to visualize the path of the object ball to pocket, then adjust your back swing to the angle needed. Often use when the angle is not that big, so you basically learn how to shoot a "family of shots" the same way.

Most pool teachers will tell you not make too much movement because it's the easiest way to make a good stroke even for players that have no smooth stroke. That is mass education at work.

 

[Onemoreyouth]

i think the elbow coming in is a natural bad habit of efrens, and the wrist turning inwards is compensating for he elbow. you can notice it mostly in the view from behind him. if you'll notice even though his elbow goes left(if from behind) his wrist curls inward and the butt of the cue still remains in line with his shoulder.

could be wrong, who knows.


also i think most of the pro players 40+ today are players who grew up playing and made whatever kind of stroke the had work for them (example Keith and his sidearm) its mostly the younger players that you see having the flawless stroke (Duel) and its come from people studying the stroke more and trying to perfect it more now than when most of todays pro's were learning. the use of the internet has played no small part i'm sure.


just my .02, i've been wrong before.

 

[TATE]

Very few players would be gifted enough to control this length of back stroke. He pulls the ferrule all the way back to his bridge finger on his final stroke.

Chris

Ps. Love the X Treme breaker! Great jump cue too.

 

[Rod]

Sol, I think your reading far to much into the sequence of photos. Your not suppose to play in a full body cast. He may have used a little swoop/BHE, who knows can't really tell by the photo's.

As for head and elbow movement, it looks natural to me. His head is up some but the stroke was already completed. The elbow movement looks natural as well, he just let the cue go to it's final destination.

You're overlooking the jest of Mr Kuo's statement. "and try to be more smooth wit more follow through without thinking too much about keeping the elbow up or that kind of things."

He didn't say such things are not important. His statement was meant to improve the flow of the cue through the cue ball. Think flow, not hit or rushed motions. Show me a player with a rushed or jerky motion and I 'll show you a player that hits at the cue ball.

Efren makes no rushed moves and that is the point.

Rod

 

[PROG8R]

He is of course the master! I am a student for sure, the stroke he uses was described to me as a subtle under handed toss motion. It is natural to slightly bring the elbow up, (or down if you are in stroke). Try for your self, lock your elbow to your side and try to see how natural it feels to toss something to a waste basket, then try it the other way. I don't think the average JOE can control a stroke as exaggerated as Buste, but Efren's isn't that 'wingy'.

 

[Solartje]

i think the elbow coming in is a natural bad habit of efrens, and the wrist turning inwards is compensating for he elbow. you can notice it mostly in the view from behind him. if you'll notice even though his elbow goes left(if from behind) his wrist curls inward and the butt of the cue still remains in line with his shoulder.

could be wrong, who knows.


also i think most of the pro players 40+ today are players who grew up playing and made whatever kind of stroke the had work for them (example Keith and his sidearm) its mostly the younger players that you see having the flawless stroke (Duel) and its come from people studying the stroke more and trying to perfect it more now than when most of todays pro's were learning. the use of the internet has played no small part i'm sure.


just my .02, i've been wrong before.

ive been reading and re reading the posts, and slowly i think im starting to see/understand things i didnt really understand before. i do have a tendency to agree with Onemoreyouth. i doubt efren used alot of poolschools, alot if instructional video's, alot of botle drills etc. he's just naturaly gifted and plays his *** off every day. but i do prefere to use more modern players as a reference for me to learn. :s ok , that works for efren, but it really isnt a textbook style.

then again, ive been thinking about the toss movement. you are right, that using the full arm is easyer the to lock the shoulder. so i understand what u mean, with the flow, the stroke being as important as the hit. but its a bit like, imagine a player would win the DCC by playing every shot with a rest... would that mean that his style is what i should learn?. i will never doubt efren, was he using bhe?, was it a straight in center ball hit? or did he had to trow the ball in with some english? no idea.

what i do know: that with a typical snooker stroke, u wont be able to break. ive learned that, and experiencing it every day now. check Ronnie, davis, etc and compare alcano, hillbilly, colin... i can understand that not locking the arm in this shot is critical. BUT i wonder which shot i couldnt do if i was using a typical snooker stroke.... that isnt a break shot. im just a bit sceptical. i dont tend to believe anything that has been said, unless its proven to me. (sorry, scientist brain bad habit).

then again, efren is the best positional player in the world... so i must admit, his more fluent stroke must have something to do with it.
on the other hand, efren misses pots, that sometimes u wonder how could he miss that? and thats probabky the result of the same stroke.

i use my chest , my bridgehand and my griphand to make the cuemovement as linear as possible. ive always done that , being a snooker fan. i get more FEEL with a more fluent efren stroke, but i DO miss alot. its like a knife with double edge.

i ADMIRE efren, and his style is so different then what im used/what ive learned etc, that it intreges me. but i still havent heared a good scientific explenation why i should change my "european snooker stroke" to a "philipine pool stroke".

mebeing a student vs efren the master, probably makes alot of what i say being wrong, but adapting a back swing in a nonlinear way really scares the hell out of me. the only thing a backswing should do , is pull back the cue , pauze to let the trisceps rest and let the cue flow from itselves to the desired point with the aid of gravity and maybe a slight help of the bisceps.

really interesting discussion anyway efren has intreged me over years. to bad we cant just ask him

 

[X Breaker]

TATE,

I am so glad you like your X Breaker, thank you for letting me know.

Rod,

I could not have explained it better than the A-B-C analogy you used. I think that is what Kuo was trying to tell me. I will see him in Japan in two weeks, and I will ask him this again.

Sol,

I am not a good player, I just want to post this and what Kuo told me to share with everyone what I was told. Since I started selling the X breaker, I had the pleasure of meeting a lot of players and listening to their feedback on cues, and it is interesting to say the least, because their opinions are quite different from what I normally hear from regular players.

For example, when Kuo tried the X breaker, he told me the cue ball does not bounce off the tip too quickly. He said he likes that. Now, most people do not make this kind of comment. He also told me he felt that the X Breaker has better transfer of energy. I needed to ask him many questions and had him demonstrate me many shots before i understood what he meant.

He also used the x breaker with the X tip to make some shots with lots of English, and he made them the first time he tried. That is how the conversation about deflection came up.

I can understand your frustration and confusion about Reye's stroke. I played a lot of snooker and I was told to keep my head down, lock my elbow and so on. It is only very recently that I am starting to see that 9 ball stroke and snooker stroke are different.

As a matter of fact, I think Corey and Reye's stroke is not that much different if you put all the technicality aside. They both have a very smooth and pure follow through through the ball. Larry Nevel is the same thing. The elbow dropping or not, in my opinion, depends on the body type, hand position, amount of follow through and so on, but the point I think Kuo was trying to make was the follow through itself. The "smoothness" of the follow through is what he wanted to explain to me. It makes sense becasue the follow through is what actually moves the cue ball around.

Kuo did not say anything about back hand english, he just said to keep the stroke smooth, and he told me to open up a bit on the follow through.


I have to respectfully disagree with you that Reye's potting is bad because he has a long stroke. I do not think Efren's potting is bad, and I do not think he misses more shots than the players from a snooker background. I tend to believe he pulls out more tough shots than most players, which demonstrates his amazing potting power and cue power. Just my humble opinion.

I have seen Davis, Fishers, and all these snooker players missing easy shots, too. Sometimes, when the pressure is on, funny things happen.

One more youth,

By the way, you can see Kuo in this year's WPC, he came 3rd in 2004, and 2nd in 2005, so I expect him to do well this year. He is not an old timer so to speak. He has only been playing for about 10 years.

I am still working on understanding this new aiming method and stroke Kuo tried to explain to me, and I am very grateful for all the educated feedback and opinion. Thank you

 

[crosseyedjoe]

i ADMIRE efren, and his style is so different then what im used/what ive learned etc, that it intreges me. but i still havent heared a good scientific explenation why i should change my "european snooker stroke" to a "philipine pool stroke".

There are many cases that you can't use a snooker shot, and you will end using your wide, open stroke, or even almost a sideway stroke. So if you have a weak wide stroke your probaly going to miss more often in those cases. In Mr. Kuo's explanation, mastering a more open stroke is much better for consistency than a shorter or snooker like stroke. If you have better control of your whole arm then a snooker will be just as easy.

Try using it when you are breaking until you get the feel for it.

 

[Solartje]

There are many cases that you can't use a snooker shot, and you will end using your wide, open stroke, or even almost a sideway stroke. So if you have a weak wide stroke your probaly going to miss more often in those cases. In Mr. Kuo's explanation, mastering a more open stroke is much better for consistency than a shorter or snooker like stroke. If you have better control of your whole arm then a snooker will be just as easy.

Try using it when you are breaking until you get the feel for it.

im starting to use it for the break since colin his post.

crosseyedjoe, could u give examples of other shots where i would need a more open stroke?

ps im understanding the folow true part (im not native english, sometimes its hard to actually understand what people are saying. i can see the ABC in efren's stroke.

hope i didnt offend anyone im just a pupil trying to do his homework and understand it