The Talent Code
- Thread starter chefjeff
- Start date
I assume you are referring to some discussion of this in the past where some of the instructors on this board have disagreed with you?
If so can we get a link to see that/those discussions? I jsut tried to find the videos you refer to on these pages http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/index.html
http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/index.html
And didn't really find one. Maybe you could tell me which of them I should be looking at.
I can't imagine that any instructor here wouldn't know about throw and deflection and how speed affects them.
I will say this and I sincerely hope that the discussion does not go bad. (FBI WARNING - PLEASE TAKE CRITIQUE OF THE FOLLOWING COMMENT TO ANOTHER THREAD)
For ME - my own experience - has been that if I aim a certain way then I don't have to deliberately aim differently for slow or fast shots. For some reason using this method has freed me from having to change aiming points based on speed or angle of cut. (Please don't kill me now)
For ME - my own experience - has been that if I aim a certain way then I don't have to deliberately aim differently for slow or fast shots. For some reason using this method has freed me from having to change aiming points based on speed or angle of cut. (Please don't kill me now)
I couldn't open Dr Dave's article because of the computer I'm using. But here's the info from Bob Jewitt:
There is some throw on all shots. That is, the surface of the cue ball is somewhat sticky, and as it passes across the surface of the object ball, it will pull the object ball off the ideal path, which is the line through the centers of the two balls at the instant of contact.
If the cue ball is moving faster, there is not as much friction. This is contrary to the simple explanation of friction which says that the coefficient of friction does not change with the force of the contact. The reduction seems to be over a factor of two as you crank the speed up
If you have stun on the cue ball (no follow or draw), the throw you see on a cut shot is maximized for that speed because all the rubbing is to the side. As you add draw or follow, the effective friction is reduced because part of the rubbing is up or down, and that doesn't contribute to the throw.
Most players have no idea that this stuff is going on, and to some extent it is better for them not to know. They learn subconsciously to make corrections for it, and if they start thinking about it during shots, their brain will get in the way of their arm.
Yes I understand this and have for 30 years. Which is why it is puzzling to me to think that there is any known professional instructor who doesn't also know this.
In your post above you said you aimed the same regardless of speed.
Doesn't the student have a responsibility also to make the lesson worthwhile?
Isn't that the point of the Talent Code, for the student mostly?
I wouldn't have had 2 lessons from Scott if I wasn't going to follow up with the practice ideas he gave me. That would be wasting my money and time. Even if he is the best teacher on planet Earth, don't I have to do the work to make it pay?
I was lucky enough, thanks to Williebetmore, to watch Jeanette take a lesson from Danny DiLiberto. That taught me a lot about this subject from BOTH student and teacher.
Jeff Livingston
Isn't that the point of the Talent Code, for the student mostly?
I wouldn't have had 2 lessons from Scott if I wasn't going to follow up with the practice ideas he gave me. That would be wasting my money and time. Even if he is the best teacher on planet Earth, don't I have to do the work to make it pay?
I was lucky enough, thanks to Williebetmore, to watch Jeanette take a lesson from Danny DiLiberto. That taught me a lot about this subject from BOTH student and teacher.
Jeff Livingston
There have been a few post about long practice sessions as not being fun.
Well, what makes a short practice fun and a long practice not?
Or do you do a short practice even though it's not fun, but do it just because you think you have to?
Why are long practice sessions not fun?
"To become a champion requires a condition of readiness that causes the individual to approach with pleasure even the most tedious practice session. The more "ready" the person is to respond to a stimulus, the more satisfaction he finds in the response, and the more "unready" he is, the more annoying he finds it to be forced to act." Bruce Lee Tao of Jeet Kune Do.
So the real statement is that you find long practice not fun and not that long practice session are not fun.
Well, what makes a short practice fun and a long practice not?
Or do you do a short practice even though it's not fun, but do it just because you think you have to?
Why are long practice sessions not fun?
"To become a champion requires a condition of readiness that causes the individual to approach with pleasure even the most tedious practice session. The more "ready" the person is to respond to a stimulus, the more satisfaction he finds in the response, and the more "unready" he is, the more annoying he finds it to be forced to act." Bruce Lee Tao of Jeet Kune Do.
So the real statement is that you find long practice not fun and not that long practice session are not fun.
There was an article in the NTimes recently about research that shows that "grit" can be an accurate predictor of a student's success. (There's even a test to find out where you fall on the "Grit Scale.") Basically the idea is that if a student has the character/grit to stick with a task, despite failures, they are the most likely to eventually succeed.
I think that is certainly true for pool. Maybe we're more inclined to call it "heart," but it's basically the drive and determination to stick with the monumental task of getting good at this game. The guys that are willing to stay the course and work hard (HAMB) are the most likely to succeed. The other guys look for the magic pill, short cut, system, shaft, tip, chalk, etc., etc.
Lou Figueroa
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If I recall, the salient point was not short vs long practice, but "deliberate practice." In "Talent is Overrated" Colvin gives the example of Jerry Rice and how few, if any, could keep up with his practice regime because it was so hard (not fun). I guess the point is that if you're doing it right it is not fun working on your weaknesses and repeatedly failing until you get it right. Or maybe working on specific skills, like say caroms if you're a 1pocket player, rather than pocketing balls, or off angle banks, rather than the straight backs.
Lou Figueroa
Lou...Totally incorrect. You assume many things, and you know what assume means.
Lou...Once again, you called Randy and I out, with that tired old "Who have YOU beat?" bs...as potential credentials to be a good instructor. I merely pointed out that both of us have "been there, done that". You can take it for whatever you choose. We have nothing to prove to you, or anyone else.
OH...try some mouthwash for your "baited breath"!
Scott Lee
Www.pool knowledge.com
OH...try some mouthwash for your "baited breath"!
Scott Lee
Www.pool knowledge.com
I think the discussion has migrated a bit
Lou Figueroa
waiting
with
bait
on
my
breath
Lou is correct on the hard work aspect. I couldn't say it better than Lou.
But, there is more to the story than hard work.
Our minds don't unlearn tasks. Once the task is done, the task is learned even if it was accomplished incorrectly. Repeated incorrect attemps solidifies or grooves the task in our brains (myelin wraps on nerve paths(The Talent Code)). To overcome this bad method, one must accomplish the task correctly enough times for the brain the establish the pathways and wrap more myelin on those pathways than the previous incorrect ones. The new pathways conduct the signals more efficiently and become the "go to" pathways for the brain. This takes time. That's why it takes so long to overcome bad habits.
This is where Scott comes in. Scott, being a great instructor, knows what a proper stroke looks like and can teach those movements to the student. If the student does it correctly sooner with Scott's help, then less incorrect pathways are made. More time is spent grooving (myelin wrapping of good pathways) the correct stroke. Therefore, proficiency is achieved sooner with Scott's world class instruction than without it.
Hey Scott, was this good enough butt kissing for a discount? :thumbup:
But, there is more to the story than hard work.
Our minds don't unlearn tasks. Once the task is done, the task is learned even if it was accomplished incorrectly. Repeated incorrect attemps solidifies or grooves the task in our brains (myelin wraps on nerve paths(The Talent Code)). To overcome this bad method, one must accomplish the task correctly enough times for the brain the establish the pathways and wrap more myelin on those pathways than the previous incorrect ones. The new pathways conduct the signals more efficiently and become the "go to" pathways for the brain. This takes time. That's why it takes so long to overcome bad habits.
This is where Scott comes in. Scott, being a great instructor, knows what a proper stroke looks like and can teach those movements to the student. If the student does it correctly sooner with Scott's help, then less incorrect pathways are made. More time is spent grooving (myelin wrapping of good pathways) the correct stroke. Therefore, proficiency is achieved sooner with Scott's world class instruction than without it.
Hey Scott, was this good enough butt kissing for a discount? :thumbup:
Man, that's good about "assume. woo wee. Good one. Did you make that up yourself?
But just for your enlightenment: I didn't "assume" I said I was "guessing" based upon how you used the words, "...that's that 100% satisfaction, or your money back..." A fine distinction perhaps, but then our game is all about fine distinctions, is it not?
BTW, what happened to your woofing? It seems to have gone from rottweiler to chihuahua as of late, because I can't hear you barking any more.
Lou Figueroa
still waiting on the resume
and national title details too
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I have never called you or Randy out, or asked who you beat. If you're going to make that charge: show me where.
I only asked for the details of your resume and title because *you* brought those up (and woofed at me). I'm starting to guess that maybe there's a problem mit the credentials perhaps, because you seem awfully shy now after beating your chest about your national level finish. Like I said before, after *you* brought it up: "just out of curiosity" what are the details? And now all I get is a lot of obfuscation.
Lou Figueroa
still waiting
You're absolutely right about the difficulty of unlearning bad habits. It's tough for all the reasons you point out.
My point is just that there are some instructors out there, that while they think they know what a good stroke is -- and teach a certain type of setup, stroke and execution -- might not be teaching the bestest stroke for any individual player. And to that I point, I've often listed several of the many styles that can be successful up to and including world caliber pool playing.
So an instructor teaches you a Steve Mizerak's style of stroke, but you, deep down, are a Buddy Hall type of stroke kinda player. Hopefully, if that's the case, you figure that out someday and are able to successfully undo the well-intentioned, but flawed (for you), approach that you were taught my a well meaning instructor.
Someone once said: every man must find his own salvation.
Lou Figueroa
:scratchhead:
If you're stating that a good instructor modifies his teaching to suit the individual student, then we agree.
"The Talent Code" goes in depth on coaching skills.
obfuscate |ˈäbfəˌskāt|
verb [ with obj. ]
render obscure, unclear, or unintelligible: the spelling changes will deform some familiar words and obfuscate their etymological origins.
• bewilder (someone): it is more likely to obfuscate people than enlighten them.
DERIVATIVES
obfuscation |ˌäbfəˈskāSHən|noun,
obfuscatory |äbˈfəskəˌtôrē|adjective
ORIGIN late Middle English: from late Latin obfuscat- ‘darkened,’ from the verb obfuscare, based on Latin fuscus ‘dark.’
Lou Figueroa
We're in agreement then.
Having been recently provided some of the training materials some instructors use, talked to various students, and even watched some classes and individual instruction, it is clear that there are some guys who very much use a "cookie-cutter" approach to instruction.
First off, there's the issue of group vs individual instruction, but nevermind that for a moment. I have personally seen one-on-one instruction during which the instructor provides exactly the same set of instructions to every student that comes to them: stand like this, shoulder there, head this high, bridge here, grip like this, move you stick like so. Same for every student. It is actually amazing how little individualized instruction is out there.
Lou Figueroa