Theoretical APA 9-ball rules question

catscradle

catscradle

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Fortunately this only happened on our practice table, so it didn't cause a "debate" in our match, but I'd still like to know what the right rule interpretation would have been for it.
An object ball, neither the next consecutive ball nor the 9-ball, is hanging in a corner pocket.
The next consecutive ball and the cue ball are in positions that it makes sense to back the ball back to try to pocket the hanger.
When the player takes the shot he accidentally brushes the hanger with his hand and it falls in the pocket.
The banked ball comes back and goes dead in the pocket. It very likely would have successfully knocked in the hanger and it may or may not have followed the hanger in.
We didn't know what the right rule really was, but we came up with this resolution:
The two balls that went in would be called dead, the shooting player would lose his turn, but the incoming player would not get ball in hand.

Was that the right interpretation? If not, what would have been?
 
correct ruling as i understand it is ball knocked in by hand gets spotted. ball made is counted as a point for the shooter. shooter stays at table. in apa it is not foul on all balls so knocking the ball in is not a foul. he didn't move 2 balls at once by accident so again no foul. the ball he touched didn't interfere with the path of the cue ball, again no foul. so in no way is it ball in hand for the opponent.
your shooter leagally pocketed a ball so it is a point for him.
the only thing i am not sure of is where the moved ball is spotted. if a ball hanging in a pocket inadvertantly drops, say you are up table and ball in the bottom corner that has been hanging falls in because you bumped the table, it is put back as close to where it was as possible. so i am going to say that's where the ball he knocked in with his hand would go, unless the spot is now occupied by the cue ball, in whick case i would say the foot spot.
those are the rules as i understand them.
 
As I understand it...

As I understand the rule, if the accidental movement occurs before the shot the ball that was moved is returned to it's original position (to the satisfaction of both players) if possible, if not then the ball is returned to it's original position immediately after the ball have stopped and pocketed balls are scored normally and the game continues. If it's determined that the ball that moved altered the path of the balls (any balls - get your minds out of the gutter!) in their course of movement then it is a foul and any balls made/pocketed during the shot stay down and are considered dead balls and the incoming player receives ball-in-hand, of course, reasonable people can always work these things out depending on the situation, circumstances, skill levels, etc... . Perhaps this question should be forwarded to the Good Folks in St. Louis for a definitive answer.
 
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jrt30004 said:
correct ruling as i understand it is ball knocked in by hand gets spotted. ball made is counted as a point for the shooter. shooter stays at table. in apa it is not foul on all balls so knocking the ball in is not a foul. he didn't move 2 balls at once by accident so again no foul. the ball he touched didn't interfere with the path of the cue ball, again no foul. so in no way is it ball in hand for the opponent.
your shooter leagally pocketed a ball so it is a point for him.
the only thing i am not sure of is where the moved ball is spotted. if a ball hanging in a pocket inadvertantly drops, say you are up table and ball in the bottom corner that has been hanging falls in because you bumped the table, it is put back as close to where it was as possible. so i am going to say that's where the ball he knocked in with his hand would go, unless the spot is now occupied by the cue ball, in whick case i would say the foot spot.
those are the rules as i understand them.
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Not that I agree with the rules, but I agree with your post: that's the way I interpret the rules as written in the APA. I would also refer to the "knocked off the table" spotting.

Fights will erupt. APA should explicitly address this.
 
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I don't think that the people replying read the post all the way or maybe misread it. He said that the cue ball scratched where the ball used to be. That seems like a foul to me, where the knocking of the ball in the hole by mistake is not. So the ball would be spotted back up, but the player that just shot, knocked the ball in and scratched would loose the table and give up ball in hand to the other player for the scratch in the pocket.

There is no way in hell that the cue ball fouls only rule would permit the person that A knocked a ball off the table and B scratched to just spot up the ball and keep shooting.
 
hang-the-9 said:
I don't think that the people replying read the post all the way or maybe misread it. He said that the cue ball scratched where the ball used to be. That seems like a foul to me, where the knocking of the ball in the hole by mistake is not. So the ball would be spotted back up, but the player that just shot, knocked the ball in and scratched would loose the table and give up ball in hand to the other player for the scratch in the pocket.

There is no way in hell that the cue ball fouls only rule would permit the person that A knocked a ball off the table and B scratched to just spot up the ball and keep shooting.
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If the cue ball scratched it would be BIH and the ball is replaced
 
catscradle said:
Cue ball didn't scratch.
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Oh, wait a minute, my bad. For some reason I read that the ball that went into the pocket was the cue ball, you said "banked ball". That's what I get for reading this while eating and watching a streamed match at the same time hehe.

From what I remember of the rules, if the ball moved "had a chance to interfere with another ball or the cue ball" that is a foul. Although what the APA rules state I have no clue.

So lets say that you have a ball near a pocket, you move it, the cueball then goes around where that other ball was, it's a foul because the cueball could have scratched or gone in a different position than originally planned. It's almost like stopping a cueball on a foul before it stops rolling, idiots do that all the time when they see it may help out the other guy.
 
The player should get the points pocketed and the remaining points on the table.... Its the APA and that's only fair... Just saying :rolleyes:
 
If you touch and move a ball that would be in play (as in effecting the roll of the cue or object ball) - as in this case -- it is a foul. Spot the ball that was kncoked in; count the other as dead. BIH for opponent.

I think......
 
RobMan said:
If you touch and move a ball that would be in play (as in effecting the roll of the cue or object ball) - as in this case -- it is a foul. Spot the ball that was kncoked in; count the other as dead. BIH for opponent.

I think......
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Yeah, I would agree with you in every situation EXCEPT in an APA match.

Here is how it's going to go:

On an average league night, you're going to bust out your rulebook, sift through all the fouls, find nothing, go through the definitions, still find nothing and deduce that this isn't a foul and move on. Maybe, if you have two high ranked players playing eachother, they will adhere to higher standards and call it as it would normally be called in the BCA.

In higher level play, you are likely going to be subjected to the ruling of the ref on duty and I am fairly certain not all APA refs will rule the same way on this. This is not an itemized foul (although it should be) in the APA so it should NOT be called a foul. With that said, the APA states that common sense MUST prevail. Once you start changing the outcome of multiple balls, you really have entered territory that almost every pool player on the planet would recognize as a foul (unless he's wearing an APA patch). If your ref happens to also ref BCA events, the chances of having a foul called on you just went up tenfold.

So yeah, you can't call this a foul but don't be surprised if a ref calls foul on you.
 
Point counts, ball hanging is replaced, shooter keeps shooting as normal.

There is no foul, if he had moved the ball and grabbed it before all balls came to a stop, then it would be a foul. In this case, you restore it and move on as if nothing happened.
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
Yeah, I would agree with you in every situation EXCEPT in an APA match.

Here is how it's going to go:

On an average league night, you're going to bust out your rulebook, sift through all the fouls, find nothing, go through the definitions, still find nothing and deduce that this isn't a foul and move on. Maybe, if you have two high ranked players playing each other, they will adhere to higher standards and call it as it would normally be called in the BCA.
........
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Thanks Jude. You are probably correct here. I am a higher ranked player in APA 9-ball and actually called something similar on myself against another component. Most of my matches are against people who play with some degree of honor ... calling fouls, not needing to get a third party to watch a hit (unless REALLY close), etc.
 
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