Thick Glass as table top material to replace slate?

[DaveK]

I am no engineer, but I would say that you have to keep the temperature in the room VERY stable to prevent cracking....you have seen sidewalks, garage/basement floors with cracks? And being that the concrete on the table is "floating" I see that it is more likely to cracking being the temperature circulates underneath....like a bridge...or would that prevent the cracking??

Well I am an engineer (don't worry, I'll be OK) ...and can tell you that concrete is quite soft. It is easily marked or scratched, compared to slate or granite or steel or glass. A concrete pool table surface would become dimpled and potmarked very quickly. A concrete slab will expand and contract with temperature changes, often without cracking. For sure temperature changes CAN crack concrete in many other cases. Having said that, as an Electrical Engineer, perhaps all I really know is that you shouldn't get a shock from a concrete pool table.

Dave

 

[pete lafond]

No insult intended. It's just my thinking that as far as the OPs question went, mild steel is far more suitable than D-2 heat-treated to 62Rc.

I'm not an expert in steel, but flex also exists unless it is heat treated in which case it can be brittle. How about carbonized steel? I am not an expert but the new steel grades used on airplanes have compositions that are much lighter, do not rust and keep form.

 

[ceebee]

Why could a thick Glass material not be used as a pool table material to replace slate. Is slate more flat. Slate less likely to expand and contract? Also how about concrete.

My Pool Table has a 3 piece surface, made from GRANITE. Granite is used all around the world, as precision surface tables. I won't say that Granite is far superior to Slate, but it won't chip. It seems to be heavier. It is very smooth.

 

[DaveK]

The University of Virginia is currently creating a new type of steel. I forgot the details, but from what I remember it will be super if they ever iron out the wrinkles.

You can't have wrinkles on a pool table, it makes the balls bounce funny, so I hope they have that iron turned up to high ! Maybe they need one of those special irons that you can turn up to eleven !!

Dave

 

[Mr. Wilson]

I'm not an expert in steel, but flex also exists unless it is heat treated in which case it can be brittle. How about carbonized steel? I am not an expert but the new steel grades used on airplanes have compositions that are much lighter, do not rust and keep form.

There are a lot of misconceptions about "steel" in general.

Using the word steel is like using the word paper. It is a generic term, at best.

There are thousands of flavors of steel. Not all of them have carbon and not all are even magnetic.

For example, cast iron has a lot of carbon ( between 1-3%. Carbon as an ingredient alone doesn't make steel hard. Add some Boron and it will be harder.

As for the planes, what you are likely to find would be titanium, which is just another kind of steel. There are actually quite a few varieties of Ti also.


As for flex, for the spans we are talking about, 3/4 of an inch isn't going anywhere. For coating, sure. Hundreds....but why?

Natural materials ( at this time ) are so much more cost efficient and perform superbly.



Dave

 

[pete lafond]

There are a lot of misconceptions about "steel" in general.

Using the word steel is like using the word paper. It is a generic term, at best.

There are thousands of flavors of steel. Not all of them have carbon and not all are even magnetic.

For example, cast iron has a lot of carbon ( between 1-3%. Carbon as an ingredient alone doesn't make steel hard. Add some Boron and it will be harder.

As for the planes, what you are likely to find would be titanium, which is just another kind of steel. There are actually quite a few varieties of Ti also.


As for flex, for the spans we are talking about, 3/4 of an inch isn't going anywhere. For coating, sure. Hundreds....but why?

Natural materials ( at this time ) are so much more cost efficient and perform superbly.



Dave

Thanks for the info. I understand that the weight of the slate also add to stabilizing everything. I do not know the cost of slate, but I imagine shipping is a cost to consider. The only reason I add to this thread is think that it would be nice to have a super light weight table that could be more cost effective to make and ship. Is there a super light but stable steel product out there that you know about?

(edit for spelling)

 

[Mr. Wilson]

Is there a super light but stable steel product out there that you know about?

(edit for spelling)

Not that I'm aware of.

On the engeneering side, there are countless possibilities, but on the monitary side, reality takes over and nobody is going to spend 10G on a steel surface when slate is the norm and is only a few hundred dollars.


Dave

 

[NineBallNut]

We use plexi on some of our display tables to show the underside construction. it is the same thickness as the slate. people always come and say why couldn't you do a table like this. Well, one issue is weight.. the table would be to light and be prone to knocking out of level like alll those slatron and fake slate tables are. Now even if you get around that. the plexi will still flex at that thickness. So when someone sits on a rail by the seem......pop..... and you know the rest

 

[Lora_Ann]

Something that hasn't been mentioned is that regardless of the glass, it **will** move. Glass is not really so much a solid as it is a super-cooled liquid. It will flow. You can make it flat, but it will deform ever so slightly with time.


My choice for a composite would lean toward ceramics.

Natural stone, like granite and slate are still going to be much more cost effective than anything we can make that will perform nearly as well.

I concur with Mr. Wilson.

Ever have a close look at the profile of a piece of glass taken from an old window? You will notice that it is considerably thicker at the bottom due to this effect.

Lora

 

[Snapshot9]

How about ...

I think I got most of this thread.

How come noone has mentioned a hard rubber/plastic
composite, whatever percentage of each would be
best for a use such as this.

on 2nd thought, just make it hard rubber,
imagine the jump shots .... lol

 

[Ronoh]

With the advances in Kevlar recipies (mainly weaving), it's conceivable that it might become the new playing surface in the future.

A "steel" frame construction (where most of the weight will be for stability), and a layered surface of various materials (finished off by Kevlar), could possibly surpass the playablity, rigidity and consistancy of current tables.

One main reason I don't think a glass surface would work (no matter how thick) is that over time stress fractures would occur. Causing a massive shatter even with the slightest of hits. If anyone has worked with glass at all, they know that all you need to do is "strike" the glass to create a small fissure and apply small pressure to have a "controlled" break. Glass in any form will not work. Plexiglass is not glass at all, just a fibered (britle) plastic weaved and heated.

Glass is sand, and will return to "near" sand if beat on enough.

There is a company that sells "bullet proof" "dry wall" (in various thicknesses depending one what type of bullet they want to stop) that may come close to the consistancy of slate.

Here's some links to compare density factors (among other factors) to support my thought.

SI Metric (slate is listed) and Kevlar

Truely, only time will tell which way newer table surfaces will go. But, my feeling is that Kevlar will be the new wave of tables in the next 5 years. They will be more durable, easier to resurface and play better than slate (once the right recipe is found).

You heard it here first

 

[Mungtor]

I concur with Mr. Wilson.

Ever have a close look at the profile of a piece of glass taken from an old window? You will notice that it is considerably thicker at the bottom due to this effect.

Lora

Actually, that isn't true. Old window glass is thicker at the bottom because the panes were rolled out in a way which did not lead to uniform thickness. After that, common sense dictates assembling them with the thicker part at the bottom.

http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/General/Glass/glass.html

 

[Tbeaux]

What about Dupont Corian? Anybody tried this?

Terry

 

[bgb]

I concur with Mr. Wilson.

Ever have a close look at the profile of a piece of glass taken from an old window? You will notice that it is considerably thicker at the bottom due to this effect.

Lora

An oft forgotten element of material for the bed of a pool table is the coefficient of elasticity, which is a very important factor in the 'playability' of a pool table. If the COE is too high you get balls leaving the table for unusual reasons. If too low, it impacts the 'trueness' of spin shots. Slate has a certain COE that is very hard to reproduce in any 'synthetic' materials, and which is far different from materials such as spun glass or steel.

You can see this effect easily because the thicker the slate, the higher the COE, which is why it is comparitively easier to jump balls on a commercial table in a pool room with 1.5"-2" slate, than it is on a typical Valley bar table with .5-.75" slate.

All that comes from a lecture by Greg Sullivan of Diamond - bottom line, if it ain't broke, don't fix it...

 

[Curt]

CORIAN Pool Table Bed

I've worked with Corian for 20 plus years. Great material for all kinds of things, however, a pool table bed is not one of them!

What about Dupont Corian? Anybody tried this?

Terry

 

[ShaneT58]

I think some kind of polymer composite would be a great idea. You can tune the properties of the composites by mixing different polymers together or even changing the molecular structure of the polymers being used to give a range of tailored properties. I'm about 1 year away from getting a phd in polymer chemistry at Virginia Tech. When I was and undergraduate, I worked on a project to make I beams out of polymer composites to be used in the construction of bridges and things like that. There is a wide variety of applications for these materials. I believe with research that a material could be developed to copy the properties of what is available today or possibly make something even better. Maybe there is even some material out there right now that is suitable or just needs some minor tweaking. The only real question is who is going to pay for the research? As far as the weight making the table more stable, you could add weight to the table after it is delivered. Possibly fill the legs with something like concrete or sand that would be available pretty much anywhere. That way you can save by shipping something light then increasing the weight later.

 

[Hal]

As far as the weight making the table more stable, you could add weight to the table after it is delivered. Possibly fill the legs with something like concrete or sand that would be available pretty much anywhere. That way you can save by shipping something light then increasing the weight later.

In my opinion a TPV, TPO, or TPE material would give the same effect as a piece of honeycomb material used in the cheap tables such as a Sears table. Weighing the legs down wouldn't give you the same solid feel that playing on slate or marble provides. It just wouldn't "feel" right.

 

[ShaneT58]

I'm definitely not saying that I have the answers. It might feel different with all the weight in the legs. Maybe weight could be added some other way to improve the feel. I'm not sure what is wrong with the slate. What are people looking to improve? Is it just something lighter to reduce the shipping costs? Is slate really expensive and people are looking for cheaper materials?

 

[Mr. Wilson]

I think some kind of polymer composite would be a great idea. You can tune the properties of the composites by mixing different polymers together or even changing the molecular structure of the polymers being used to give a range of tailored properties. I'm about 1 year away from getting a phd in polymer chemistry at Virginia Tech..

Industrial I-beams aside, help me understand how much a table top for a 9 footer will cost.

 

[ShaneT58]

I have no idea how much it would cost. It was at least 6 years ago that I worked on that project. We only made 6"x6" squares for testing. The I-beams were made somewhere else. At that point I was pretty much just doing what I was told and trying to learn as much as I could. The part I actually worked on was the catalyst to cure the material. The panels were made from carbon fiber inbedded in an epoxy that was developed at VT. Aparently I didn't learn how much they cost. They did build a small bridge using the materials somewhere around VT. I just think if there is a need for it that it could be done using polymeric materials because their is a huge range of properties that can be had from these materials.The real question is whether its worth the money to come up with a new material.