Think I've figured out CJ Wiley's "hammer stroke" method of delivering the cue

[sfleinen]

Think I've figured out CJ Wiley's "hammer stroke" method of delivering the cue

Folks:

After some offline prompting from some folks, I went back and reviewed some of the early descriptions of CJ's original [trainwrecked] thread on "wrists." I also reviewed some material in PJ's "What's Good about a Good Stroke?" thread as well.

Like others, I was very confused by CJ's analogy of using a hammer as the wrist action he employs during his cue delivery. To me (and others), this Just Didn't Make Sense(TM). I mean, when you use a hammer with a wristy motion, you are flicking your wrist forward, towards the pinkie finger ("ulnar deviation"):

However, most know a pool stroke, when used with its version of a wristy motion, the "flick" is towards the thumb ("radial deviation").

So I decided to try an "ulnar deviation" for delivering a cue. I think I figured out what CJ's referring to when he says "cock" and "uncock" the wrist for the delivery. (At least I think I do.)

Here's how to do it:

0. Make sure your hands are clean and dry, or if you have a hyperhidrosis problem, that you've applied powder (or a pool glove or FingerSlides) to your bridge hand.

1. Hold the cue like you hold a very light finishing hammer (or even a tack hammer). Don't hold the cue like you're holding a very substantial framing hammer or even a sledge/mallet -- remember, a light-duty hammer like that you'd use to hammer very small finishing nails or tacks. The grip is between the pad of the thumb, and the inside of the index finger next to its main knuckle (the first "fist punch" knuckle, if you will). You can elect to wrap the remainder of the fingers underneath the cue, if you like (or not, your choice -- whatever you use when you're using a light-duty hammer).

2. Get into shooting position, with your forearm perpendicular to the cue and your wrist cocked forward ("radial deviation").

3. This is where things are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from what you're used to. To deliver the cue forward -- stay with me on this -- you are going to use ONLY YOUR FOREARM MUSCLE. No biceps. That's right, no biceps.

4. The forearm muscle you're going to use, is the same one you'd use when you have the hammer cocked backwards ("radial deviation"), and you're about to forcibly flick your wrist forward to deliver the hammer to the nail ("ulnar deviation").

5. What you're doing, is essentially using your forearm to press the cue "downwards" into your bridge hand. That's right -- you aggressively contract that forearm muscle, pushing your wrist downwards, pushing the cue down into your bridge hand -- and you'll find the cue delivers forward with no involvement of the biceps.

Yes, it's a strange way to deliver a cue, but in a weird way, it works. I played with this for a few moments, and was able to make shots like I normally would, but I found that I lost a bit of my cue ball control.

It obviously takes some practice and getting used to, and, being a one pocket and 14.1 player (precise cue ball control), I wouldn't use this unless I had a LOT (and I mean a TON) of practice. Rotation players -- who usually play to an area -- may be able to adopt this pretty quickly.

Just thought I'd share these findings with all, while the descriptions of how to do it were fresh in my head.

Thoughts?
-Sean

 

[Pay Up Sucker]

Just grip the cue with a continental grip and when brought down into a cueing position your hand will cock like shanes or Cj's automatically Hold the cue with your index knuckle and against the heal pad. This make it difficult to break the wrist and this will cure a bad stroke lol

http://vimeo.com/52942559

i guess the clock is ticking again eh Sean

 

[DTL]

.............................

 

[Pay Up Sucker]

You're using lots of biceps and triceps there.....original poster says only use forearm muscles?

i honestly am not concerned with anything above my wrist. If i get no wrist break i shoot straight. Those are also strokes in my kitchen and not on a table shooting a ball. I also made the vid to just show the grip and not for the stroke.

 

[sfleinen]

Just grip the cue with a continental grip and when brought down into a cueing position your hand will cock like shanes or Cj's automatically Hold the cue with your index knuckle and against the heal pad. This make it difficult to break the wrist and this will cure a bad stroke lol

http://vimeo.com/52942559

I played with different grips; I found that as long as you cock the wrist backwards at the "Set" position, and then forcibly flex the wrist forward (pressing the cue down upon your bridge hand), the cue delivers forward automatically.

I do lose quite a bit of my touch using this, but I understand now the motion that CJ is referring to.

i guess the clock is ticking again eh Sean

Not sure what you're talking about. Care to clarify?

-Sean

 

[Mikjary]

Folks:

After some offline prompting from some folks, I went back and reviewed some of the early descriptions of CJ's original [trainwrecked] thread on "wrists." I also reviewed some material in PJ's "What's Good about a Good Stroke?" thread as well.

Like others, I was very confused by CJ's analogy of using a hammer as the wrist action he employs during his cue delivery. To me (and others), this Just Didn't Make Sense(TM). I mean, when you use a hammer with a wristy motion, you are flicking your wrist forward, towards the pinkie finger ("ulnar deviation"):...

Yes, it's a strange way to deliver a cue, but in a weird way, it works. I played with this for a few moments, and was able to make shots like I normally would, but I found that I lost a bit of my cue ball control.

It obviously takes some practice and getting used to, and, being a one pocket and 14.1 player (precise cue ball control), I wouldn't use this unless I had a LOT (and I mean a TON) of practice. Rotation players -- who usually play to an area -- may be able to adopt this pretty quickly.

Just thought I'd share these findings with all, while the descriptions of how to do it were fresh in my head.

Thoughts?
-Sean

Sean,

Good post and thanks for the research. I would normally flick my wrist towards my thumb, too. I've found that when I move my wrist down when it is cocked really doesn't allow for any movement off line. I shoot straight in shots with this now and have no spin at all on the cue ball.

I'm not sure if I'll be able to go further with this technique because it's so different than what I'm used to doing. But the consistency for cinching a ball is def there. A pro friend of mine tried it and says it really locks him in on the line of the shot. He's experimenting with it, too. Time will tell.

Best,
Mike

 

[Hawk]

Quote:
Originally Posted by measureman View Post
This is all getting a bit over thought. It's just a simple flick of the hand forward as you contact the cue ball.Maybe 2 inches or less. Very little forward motion. I have been doing it for over 50 years and I don't even think about it. It just comes naturally.
Just a short forward flick. Pretty simple.

From CJ:
That's exactly right, but trying to explain what happens with that "little forward flick motion" gets some people on here "feeling funny inside".

It's just stange to see people that pose as experts trying to tell everyone there's "no wrist in the pool stroke". hmmm, 'The Game is the Teacher'



This is the description I found most helpful in the "wrist" thread. Once you are aware of it you spot different players using it.

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

Sean, I do believe you've finally "nailed it".

Motions that are outside our experience are hard to understand without a physical demonstration. I had no problem with his description because I am familiar with this motion as a component of a Kali stick thrust.

I knew CJ is a martial arts practioner and mentioned this to him, and he confirmed it is the same motion. Without this finish, a stick thrust to the abdomen or chest would lack in full penetration. The timing and actual degree of deviation is critical in weapons use. Too much at the wrong time could cause more damage to the wrist than to the opponent.

I played around with it myself at the table and have no use for it at this time, but I will revisit it in due course. I suspect it has it's own special timing that must be worked out with the cue stroke, but I have more fundamental aspects of my stroke that I am trying to address before I delve into advanced refinements. Baby steps for this 60 year old.

 

[pablocruz]

You guy's are all nuts!! Sean didn't discover anything new. The best cueist in the world uses this technique!! And the one CJ has been trying to describe!!
http://clip.hmongmart.com/?w=9BYMVwkaDhM

 

[CJ Wiley]

There appear to be three different techniques for the wrist to assist the pool stroke

Folks:

After some offline prompting from some folks, I went back and reviewed some of the early descriptions of CJ's original [trainwrecked] thread on "wrists." I also reviewed some material in PJ's "What's Good about a Good Stroke?" thread as well.

Like others, I was very confused by CJ's analogy of using a hammer as the wrist action he employs during his cue delivery. To me (and others), this Just Didn't Make Sense(TM). I mean, when you use a hammer with a wristy motion, you are flicking your wrist forward, towards the pinkie finger ("ulnar deviation"):

However, most know a pool stroke, when used with its version of a wristy motion, the "flick" is towards the thumb ("radial deviation").

So I decided to try an "ulnar deviation" for delivering a cue. I think I figured out what CJ's referring to when he says "cock" and "uncock" the wrist for the delivery. (At least I think I do.)

Here's how to do it:

0. Make sure your hands are clean and dry, or if you have a hyperhidrosis problem, that you've applied powder (or a pool glove or FingerSlides) to your bridge hand.

1. Hold the cue like you hold a very light finishing hammer (or even a tack hammer). Don't hold the cue like you're holding a very substantial framing hammer or even a sledge/mallet -- remember, a light-duty hammer like that you'd use to hammer very small finishing nails or tacks. The grip is between the pad of the thumb, and the inside of the index finger next to its main knuckle (the first "fist punch" knuckle, if you will). You can elect to wrap the remainder of the fingers underneath the cue, if you like (or not, your choice -- whatever you use when you're using a light-duty hammer).

2. Get into shooting position, with your forearm perpendicular to the cue and your wrist cocked forward ("radial deviation").

3. This is where things are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from what you're used to. To deliver the cue forward -- stay with me on this -- you are going to use ONLY YOUR FOREARM MUSCLE. No biceps. That's right, no biceps.

4. The forearm muscle you're going to use, is the same one you'd use when you have the hammer cocked backwards ("radial deviation"), and you're about to forcibly flick your wrist forward to deliver the hammer to the nail ("ulnar deviation").

5. What you're doing, is essentially using your forearm to press the cue "downwards" into your bridge hand. That's right -- you aggressively contract that forearm muscle, pushing your wrist downwards, pushing the cue down into your bridge hand -- and you'll find the cue delivers forward with no involvement of the biceps.

Yes, it's a strange way to deliver a cue, but in a weird way, it works. I played with this for a few moments, and was able to make shots like I normally would, but I found that I lost a bit of my cue ball control.

It obviously takes some practice and getting used to, and, being a one pocket and 14.1 player (precise cue ball control), I wouldn't use this unless I had a LOT (and I mean a TON) of practice. Rotation players -- who usually play to an area -- may be able to adopt this pretty quickly.

Just thought I'd share these findings with all, while the descriptions of how to do it were fresh in my head.

Thoughts?
-Sean

That looks well and accurate, Sean. I go into visual detail on my new DVD, but you certainly did a GReAT job on your written demonstration.

This technique has been SO contraversial the last few days, however has been VERY effective for my game and I wanted it shared with no regard to the personal attacks about me "misleading players".

I had faith there would be players that could find this useful and utilize if in their own games with a few weeks of practice. From my experience technique changes take around 3 weeks to change and start to benefit and improve your game.

The Bicep muscle is more for "decoration" than anything else. I learned this the "hard way" a few years ago when I was doing weight training AND trying to play pool. These two things didin't mix very well and my game suffered or the first 2 years I started back playing.

I coulnd't figure out what was wrong with my stroke until my martial arts instructor was having me do a "Sword Form" and mentioned "your bicep is getting in the way of maximizing speed". Then we had a discussion about it and it "clicked" that the bicep was keeping me from freely utilizing my stroke.

My main concern is precision because this technique gives me plenty of acceleration. Someone earlier posted that Ronnie O'Sullivan uses this type method and it appears he does. RONNIE O'SULLIVAN

In my Thread "WRISTS - The "hidden power catalyst" of a great stroke or "just along for the ride?" I start out the thread saying -

"There appear to be three different techniques for the wrist to assist the pocket billiards stroke. The first one is the wrists don't do much at all, the second is they cock up as you hit the cue ball and finish the stroke and the other is the wrists uncock down as the cue ball is struck and the follow through is completed."

Thanks Sean for putting in the time and effort to make this more clear. "The Game is the Teacher" :wink:

 

[Ratta]

Hi folks,

as usual Seans articles are always worth to read
But i won t go too much into detail about "what is the best technique" etc. --

But we are also talking here about kinetics -- and if you "stroke" you cannot use just your forearm muscle.
Triceps and Biceps are used then every single time (back+forward).

@CJ your example with the weight-training i told also often to some guys- you need really to find a balance here. But like always, the most guys know it all and then have a real problem (if they seriously practice pool over a long time next to weight lifting).
Well described problem

 

[CJ Wiley]

I just like the feeling of "extending my tip" through the ball

Hi folks,

as usual Seans articles are always worth to read
But i won t go too much into detail about "what is the best technique" etc. --

But we are also talking here about kinetics -- and if you "stroke" you cannot use just your forearm muscle.
Triceps and Biceps are used then every single time (back+forward).

@CJ your example with the weight-training i told also often to some guys- you need really to find a balance here. But like always, the most guys know it all and then have a real problem (if they seriously practice pool over a long time next to weight lifting).
Well described problem

I just barely use my bicep (I mentally try to use it as little as possible)...my stroke is mostly Tricep and I use the pre cocking of my wrist/hand/fingers to generate the speed. This is how I do it, but I understand there's other ways of doing it and playing well. I just like the feeling of "extending my tip" through the ball and I only feel that when "pushing the cue" towards the target.

To use the bicep you have to "pull" the cue don't you? I don't like to do that, I prefer to push it and release my wrist slightly. Not enough where it's noticeable, but it releases slightly on every shot except real "touch" shots.

 

[One Pocket John]

Nice post Sean.

The hammer is held as described. The fingers are used to propel the stick forward as the wrist breaks down (to hammer the nail). As the cue comes back into the palm the stick is pushed thru the cue ball. No bicep needed.

As with using a hammer to nail, the hammer is mostly held in place by the thumb and index finger, the other fingers provide the driving force to nail.

Thanks again.

John

 

[TheThaiger]

My main concern is precision because this technique gives me plenty of acceleration. Someone earlier posted that Ronnie O'Sullivan uses this type method and it appears he does. RONNIE O'SULLIVAN

Look at the elbow drop on that! Scott Lee would be tutting in his seat, watching that bad technique.

 

[DTL]

......................

 

[sfleinen]

Quote:
Originally Posted by measureman View Post
This is all getting a bit over thought. It's just a simple flick of the hand forward as you contact the cue ball.Maybe 2 inches or less. Very little forward motion. I have been doing it for over 50 years and I don't even think about it. It just comes naturally.
Just a short forward flick. Pretty simple.

From CJ:
That's exactly right, but trying to explain what happens with that "little forward flick motion" gets some people on here "feeling funny inside".

It's just stange to see people that pose as experts trying to tell everyone there's "no wrist in the pool stroke". hmmm, 'The Game is the Teacher'



This is the description I found most helpful in the "wrist" thread. Once you are aware of it you spot different players using it.

The problem with this description is, "what is a 'forward' flick and what is a 'backward' flick?" Are we talking "forward" as in related the wrist -- i.e. flicking the wrist forward towards the pinkie in an ulnar deviation move? Or are we talking "forward" as in relation to the cue -- flicking the wrist in the same direction that the cue is traveling (radial deviation)?

If you watch the great breakdown of Shane's stroke by "DeadStick," you'll see that Shane uses the latter -- he flicks his wrist in the same direction that the cue is traveling, or, he "radially deviates."

But what CJ is describing, is flicking your wrist in the OPPOSITE direction -- flicking your wrist towards the hand's pinkie (ulnar deviation), which PRESSES THE CUE DOWN upon your bridge hand (you'll actually feel the increased pressure upon your bridge hand -- that's why it's important that your hands be clean and dry). The result is that the cue travels forward automatically. The biceps muscle of the grip-hand's arm is "just along for the ride."

I played with this some more last night, but like I said, I'd need a TON of practice with this, because I lost quite a bit of my "touch" with the cue ball. I was able to "feel" the cue ball to an area on the table, but not even close to the precision I have with my normal stroke.

It's an interesting technique for sure, and DEFINITELY worth trying it. Who knows, you might find this "clicks" with you -- especially if the traditional stroke is inconsistent (or if you don't or won't have the opportunity or wherewithal to consult a stroke instructor like e.g. SPF).

For right now, I prefer my normal stroke, which actually employs a near-frozen wrist, and a "cage" grip (a cradle that the cue lightly rests upon, but the hand's position is held firm around the cue in "cage"-like fashion). With this, I have the feather-like touch needed for one pocket, 14.1, etc.

Hope this is additionally helpful!
-Sean

 

[Ratta]

Look at the elbow drop on that! Scott Lee would be tutting in his seat, watching that bad technique.

Ronnie does it exactly after impact with the cueball- his upperarm/elbow just follows in a natural way after the contact.

 

[sfleinen]

Hi folks,

as usual Seans articles are always worth to read
But i won t go too much into detail about "what is the best technique" etc. --

But we are also talking here about kinetics -- and if you "stroke" you cannot use just your forearm muscle.
Triceps and Biceps are used then every single time (back+forward).

@CJ your example with the weight-training i told also often to some guys- you need really to find a balance here. But like always, the most guys know it all and then have a real problem (if they seriously practice pool over a long time next to weight lifting).
Well described problem

Ingo:

Thanks for the kind words!

What is unique about this method of delivering the cue, is that your biceps are "just along for the ride." Meaning, most of the delivery force behind the cue is from the forearm muscle that is forcing the cue down upon your bridge hand. While the biceps will flex, of course (the arm does have to bend at the elbow, of course), the motion of the biceps is passive -- more to control the forward delivery of the cue (i.e. keeping it straight), rather than actually "delivering" it.

Additionally, with this technique, it is CRUCIAL that you keep your grip hand's form consistent. Any flexion of the fingers along the way, induces yaw in the cue delivery. I found that if I kept the pressure points (contact points) of the cue between: 1.) the pad of the thumb and 2.) just in front of the index finger's main knuckle (just in front of where that finger joins the hand at the knuckle), that I can create a "pivot" area that the hand fulcrums upon as it rotates downwards during the ulnar deviation. The rest of the fingers can be used to help "lift" the back end of the cue behind the hand.

I don't have video capabilities to demonstrate. (It's that Luddite thing when one's job is high technology in the first place; other than the computer I use to read AZB on off-hours, the last thing I want to do is engage in even more technology when I get home from work.)

However, I tried my best to elucidate how to do this in words. Hopefully I did a decent job?

-Sean

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

Ronnie does it exactly after impact with the cueball- his upperarm/elbow just follows in a natural way after the contact.

It may appear that way by examining the motion only, but I'm pretty sure he'd have to have already begun to engage his deltoid muscle in the stroking action before actual contact occurs. I'll bet to him it feels like one smooth movement.

 

[CJ Wiley]

I missed my calling and should be in England playing snooker.

Ronnie does it exactly after impact with the cueball- his upperarm/elbow just follows in a natural way after the contact.

That's a good point, and I haven't analyzed it as much as you guys just did, but I've always been told that Ronnie and I have common traits. I know snooker was a natural game for me and after just a few games I ran 83 on a tight 6/12 table. Maybe I missed my calling and should be in England playing snooker. :groucho: I am going to be in England in December....hmmm :wink: