think shaft stiffness affects squirt?

[mikepage]

Many people think cues squirt more when they're held from "getting out of the way" by a stiff taper or by a firm bridgehand grip. In another thread we discussed how the timescales are not right for this: the ball is gone before it can get information about the stiffness or the grip.

If you're not convinced, try wrapping your mental model around *this.* The cue below squirts more than any of the other dozen or so cues I have. It squirts the same wherever I bridge. It squirts the same whatever the orientation of the shaft. The big notch is from about 6.5 to 8 inches.

I hope Josey understands it was in the interest of science ;-)

mike page
fargo

 

[mikepage]

sorry. trying this again with the picture attached

Many people think cues squirt more when they're held from "getting out of the way" by a stiff taper or by a firm bridgehand grip. In another thread we discussed how the timescales are not right for this: the ball is gone before it can get information about the stiffness or the grip.

If you're not convinced, try wrapping your mental model around *this.* The cue below squirts more than any of the other dozen or so cues I have. It squirts the same wherever I bridge. It squirts the same whatever the orientation of the shaft. The big notch is from about 6.5 to 8 inches.

I hope Josey understands it was in the interest of science ;-)

mike page
fargo

 

[LastTwo]

How does that thing not snap when you hit the ball? And when the cue strikes the cueball, the deflection happens instantaneously. You cannot see it happen but you have clear evidence...the shaft VIBRATES. If it wasn't bending or moving out of the way when striking the side of the CB, it wouldn't be vibrating, simple as that.

 

[mikepage]

How does that thing not snap when you hit the ball?

It doesn't snap when hitting the ball because the sideways push is not that strong. The sideways push in the cue is equal to the sideways push on the ball--and that is only big enough to send the ball off course by a few degrees.

And when the cue strikes the cueball, the deflection happens instantaneously. You cannot see it happen but you have clear evidence...the shaft VIBRATES. If it wasn't bending or moving out of the way when striking the side of the CB, it wouldn't be vibrating, simple as that.

I don't claim it doesn't move or vibrate. It gets pushed while in contact with the ball and does most of its moving afterward.

 

[Colin Colenso]

Does it have standard tip end-mass Mike?

 

[Andrew Manning]

Does it have standard tip end-mass Mike?

If it squirts more than any of his other cues, it must have a higher-than-standard tip-end-mass. The point of the demonstration is to take a cue with high end mass and make it into a very flexible shaft (and an ugly one, I might add) and show that it still squirts just as much.

-Andrew

 

[jsp]

Nice experiment Mike! I guess my previous question of where the bridge hand is placed is solved by adding that new notch.

However, just to add something. When someone asks the questions..."Does shaft stiffness affect squirt?" or "Does shaft width affect squirt?"...it wouldn't be entirely correct by simply answering "No"...since changes to the stiffness and width of a shaft can have direct changes to the tip end-mass. A more accurate answer would be, "Shaft stiffness and/or width only affects squirt if it changes the effective tip end-mass, since the tip end-mass is the the main factor that determines the magnitude of squirt."

 

[The Baby's Arm]

Many people think cues squirt more when they're held from "getting out of the way" by a stiff taper or by a firm bridgehand grip. In another thread we discussed how the timescales are not right for this: the ball is gone before it can get information about the stiffness or the grip.

If you're not convinced, try wrapping your mental model around *this.* The cue below squirts more than any of the other dozen or so cues I have. It squirts the same wherever I bridge. It squirts the same whatever the orientation of the shaft. The big notch is from about 6.5 to 8 inches.

I hope Josey understands it was in the interest of science ;-)

mike page
fargo

I'm pretty sure shaft thickness does affect squirt, but usually the girls I'm with are so drunk it doesn't matter. lol

 

[Rude Dog]

I'm pretty sure shaft thickness does affect squirt, but usually the girls I'm with are so drunk it doesn't matter. lol

Now THAT'S some funny shit! You owe me a new chair, I broke mine when I fell out of it.

 

[mikepage]

Nice experiment Mike! I guess my previous question of where the bridge hand is placed is solved by adding that new notch.

However, just to add something. When someone asks the questions..."Does shaft stiffness affect squirt?" or "Does shaft width affect squirt?"...it wouldn't be entirely correct by simply answering "No"...since changes to the stiffness and width of a shaft can have direct changes to the tip end-mass. A more accurate answer would be, "Shaft stiffness and/or width only affects squirt if it changes the effective tip end-mass, since the tip end-mass is the the main factor that determines the magnitude of squirt."

OK here's an analogy.

We're all in a small village during the dark ages. Every night as their forefathers have been doing for generations, a group goes to bar, eats peanuts, drinks beer, and gets drunk. Many of the oldtimers and biggest participants talk about how drunk the beer and peanuts can make a person. Some say if you eat the peanuts by the handful you get drunk really fast. Others say chewing the peanuts carefully between swigs of beer plays a role.

So then along comes the nerdy guy who questions whether the peanuts can really make a person drunk. So he devises an experiment. He takes a group of people to someplace other than the bar and he feeds them lots of peanuts but no beer. Some eat peanuts by the handful. Others chew them one at a time. Nobody gets drunk. So he says looky here, peanuts don't make people drunk.

And then jsp comes along and says it wouldn't be exactly right to answer "no" if someone asks whether peanuts can make you drunk. He points out that sometimes when people eat more peanuts, they get thirsty, drink more beer, and get drunk. And in that sense peanuts make you drunk.... So he suggests a complicated answer to the question that explains a possible coupling between eating peanuts and drinking beer...

And then the nerdy guy says he thinks it's best to say clearly that beer makes you drunk; peanuts do not....

mike page
fargo

 

[scottycoyote]

so ur sayin he was drunk and thats why he chewed up the shaft like that?

 

[Jaden]

I guess I gotta jump in here now.

OK so the shaft bends, but AFTER it finishes making contact with the CB?

that;s impossible. It's bending BECAUSE of the contact with the CB. The Cue moves forward, The mass of the CB at the point of contact presses back on the shaft, the tip compresses, the shaft bends to the point that it can take the stress of the mass of the CB and THEN the CB moves forward.

Now, let's look what difference there is if there is spin involved.

The cue comes forward, the ball is round and the tip is rounded at the POC so there will be less of the mass of the CB directly pressing against the Shaft, it will instead be tangential to a certain degree depending on the angle of contact. Because of that offset of effective mass, the angle that the shaft bends will be divergent from the originally straight angle. This means that the deflection will be less from an angle than an equally hard hit straight on shot; however, It will be in a specific direction rather than equally distributed.

Now in reality, we are never hitting it dead straight but the concept is still the same. The more the CB is hit off center the greater the change in angle of mass interaction and the greater the effective deflection because the deflection (energy of mass transfer) is distributed at a more specific angle rather than spread more evenly through the wood. And while hitting it with the same amount of force, the off center hit will have less deflection energy, hitting it with enough force to move the CB the same amount of distance will produce more deflection.

 

[Egg McDogit]

you should have said it doesn't squirt at all..someone might've bought it off you

Many people think cues squirt more when they're held from "getting out of the way" by a stiff taper or by a firm bridgehand grip. In another thread we discussed how the timescales are not right for this: the ball is gone before it can get information about the stiffness or the grip.

If you're not convinced, try wrapping your mental model around *this.* The cue below squirts more than any of the other dozen or so cues I have. It squirts the same wherever I bridge. It squirts the same whatever the orientation of the shaft. The big notch is from about 6.5 to 8 inches.

I hope Josey understands it was in the interest of science ;-)

mike page
fargo

 

[jsp]

so peanuts really don't make people drunk?

OK here's an analogy.

We're all in a small village during the dark ages. Every night as their forefathers have been doing for generations, a group goes to bar, eats peanuts, drinks beer, and gets drunk. Many of the oldtimers and biggest participants talk about how drunk the beer and peanuts can make a person. Some say if you eat the peanuts by the handful you get drunk really fast. Others say chewing the peanuts carefully between swigs of beer plays a role.

So then along comes the nerdy guy who questions whether the peanuts can really make a person drunk. So he devises an experiment. He takes a group of people to someplace other than the bar and he feeds them lots of peanuts but no beer. Some eat peanuts by the handful. Others chew them one at a time. Nobody gets drunk. So he says looky here, peanuts don't make people drunk.

And then jsp comes along and says it wouldn't be exactly right to answer "no" if someone asks whether peanuts can make you drunk. He points out that sometimes when people eat more peanuts, they get thirsty, drink more beer, and get drunk. And in that sense peanuts make you drunk.... So he suggests a complicated answer to the question that explains a possible coupling between eating peanuts and drinking beer...

And then the nerdy guy says he thinks it's best to say clearly that beer makes you drunk; peanuts do not....

mike page
fargo

You really think we are in the "dark ages" of pool knowledge? LOL. Point taken.

 

[bruin70]

what happens if you carve out the shaft just below the ferrule???

 

[Flex]

what happens if you carve out the shaft just below the ferrule???

My understanding is that the 4 to 6 inches from the tip backwards are the most important from the standpoint of influencing cueball squirt.

If the area below the ferrule is thinned down, as I did on two shafts of mine, the endmass of the cue will be reduced, likely reducing squirt. I went a step further and drilled out about 4 inches under the tip down into the shaft with a 1/4 inch drill, further lightening the endmass. Results? Drastically reduced cueball squirt.

Flex

 

[bruin70]

My understanding is that the 4 to 6 inches from the tip backwards are the most important from the standpoint of influencing cueball squirt.

If the area below the ferrule is thinned down, as I did on two shafts of mine, the endmass of the cue will be reduced, likely reducing squirt. I went a step further and drilled out about 4 inches under the tip down into the shaft with a 1/4 inch drill, further lightening the endmass. Results? Drastically reduced cueball squirt.

Flex

then the example given was illusory. i had a hunch

 

[Jaden]

My understanding is that the 4 to 6 inches from the tip backwards are the most important from the standpoint of influencing cueball squirt.

If the area below the ferrule is thinned down, as I did on two shafts of mine, the endmass of the cue will be reduced, likely reducing squirt. I went a step further and drilled out about 4 inches under the tip down into the shaft with a 1/4 inch drill, further lightening the endmass. Results? Drastically reduced cueball squirt.

Flex

Yes if you want to reduce squirt then you can do that, in fact the end of the predator shafts are center drilled and filled with foam to reduce end mass. I like to have a little squirt because I use BHE and I play with a predator right now, so I cut off the ferule and tip and drilled it out and added a tenon and a new ferule. Now it plays perfectly.

 

[Colin Colenso]

Yes if you want to reduce squirt then you can do that, in fact the end of the predator shafts are center drilled and filled with foam to reduce end mass. I like to have a little squirt because I use BHE and I play with a predator right now, so I cut off the ferule and tip and drilled it out and added a tenon and a new ferule. Now it plays perfectly.

I agree Jaden,
On most BHE shots, I'd need to take an inconveniently long bridge length to make it work without adjustment. I either aim a bit thick for OE or a bit thin for IE n many shots or slide by bridge hand to adjust aiming before applying BHE on many shots to make the compenation method work better at normal bridge lengths.

If my cue had half the squirt, these adjustments would have to be larger.

Then again, the more I play with this system, the more I realize the significance of speed. If a lower squirt cue had less variation of squirt with speed also, then that could be a considerable advantage.

I could imagine the possibility of having a low and medium squirt cue and using the medium squirt cue for shorter shots and the low squirt cue for when the CB was over 3 feet from the OB, or for when extreme power was required.

Just the thought of it gives me a head ache