Thoughts about an amateur Mosconi Cup (North America VS Europe)?

J

justinb386

Banned
This idea just popped up in my mind, because I was wondering how many solid A player there are in the US, and how many solid A players there are in Europe (I am referring to 9 or 10 ball rotation pool players).

I have heard that Europe has a much stronger junior pool player talent then here in the US, and I believe that is probably true (because they have more pool schools over there, and really good ones I imagine).

Anyways, what do you think about someday there possibly being an amateur Mosconi Cup (North America VS Europe)?

There could be qualifiers that you could attend (like City, then Regionals, then Nationals, kind of like how you quality to get to the APA singles nationals) for a chance to get on to Team US (or Team North America).

Does this seem like a really silly idea?

Or, maybe an amateur Mosconi Cup (North America VS Europe) for junior players (under 18, or maybe under 21)?

I was also wondering about just how good the amateurs in Europe are (compared to the so called amateurs here in the US).

I do not know, but I imagine the amateur players in Europe are pretty strong (compared to the amateur players here in the US).

Thanks for any thoughts about this.
 
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The problem is that there isn't really a clear cutoff as far as what an amateur is that conforms to a consistent definition between the various US and Europe organizing bodies. And even if you could fix a definition, it would hardly be a contest. Parts of Europe have so many talented junior players that you can see a very high and more importantly consistent level of play from European amateurs, because there's just higher level competition. Americans typically come to the game (in a serious way, not counting very informal exposure) later in life and having to be adults and make a living, it's much rarer for an American amateur player to be able to put in the kind of time to compete the late teen and early 20-somethings do in Europe while they do not have to be as self-sufficient..


Edit:

That said, (and given the reluctance to put cue sports in the olympics) I think we should nix the Mosconi Cup and World Cup of Pool and have a Cue Sports Olympics, where we have both singles and doubles in multiple events, 8-ball, 9-ball, 10-ball, American Rotation, and Snooker, with a juniors division running alongside in every category. That way large countries could field far more than 5 players and you wouldn't have the many many countries in Europe represented by only 5 players, sometimes two or three from the same country.
 
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justinb386 said:
This idea just popped up in my mind, because I was wondering how many solid A player there are in the US, and how many solid A players there are in Europe (I am referring to 9 or 10 ball rotation pool players).

I have heard that Europe has a much stronger junior pool player talent then here in the US, and I believe that is probably true (because they have more pool schools over there, and really good ones I imagine).

Anyways, what do you think about someday there possibly being an amateur Mosconi Cup (North America VS Europe)?

There could be qualifiers that you could attend (like City, then Regionals, then Nationals, kind of like how you quality to get to the APA singles nationals) for a chance to get on to Team US (or Team North America).

Does this seem like a really silly idea?

Or, maybe an amateur Mosconi Cup (North America VS Europe) for junior players (under 18, or maybe under 21)?

I was also wondering about just how good the amateurs in Europe are (compared to the so called amateurs here in the US).

I do not know, but I imagine the amateur players in Europe are pretty strong (compared to the amateur players here in the US).

Thanks for any thoughts about this.
Click to expand...

there is a junior mosconi cup (atlantic challenge cup i believe) and you are right, europe is much better lol, they destroyed the US team
 
justinb386 said:
This idea just popped up in my mind, because I was wondering how many solid A player there are in the US, and how many solid A players there are in Europe (I am referring to 9 or 10 ball rotation pool players).

I have heard that Europe has a much stronger junior pool player talent then here in the US, and I believe that is probably true (because they have more pool schools over there, and really good ones I imagine).

Anyways, what do you think about someday there possibly being an amateur Mosconi Cup (North America VS Europe)?

There could be qualifiers that you could attend (like City, then Regionals, then Nationals, kind of like how you quality to get to the APA singles nationals) for a chance to get on to Team US (or Team North America).

Does this seem like a really silly idea?

Or, maybe an amateur Mosconi Cup (North America VS Europe) for junior players (under 18, or maybe under 21)?

I was also wondering about just how good the amateurs in Europe are (compared to the so called amateurs here in the US).

I do not know, but I imagine the amateur players in Europe are pretty strong (compared to the amateur players here in the US).

Thanks for any thoughts about this.
Click to expand...

Atlantic Cup, CSI just uploaded some videos of that on YouTube if you want to watch.

The Europe and Asian kids are much better trained than the US kids. MUCH better. In the US, if your parents don't take you to play, there are pretty much 0 programs for kids to join, and you'd never know about them unless you are around pool.

In Europe and Asia, billiards is in schools, there are coaching for kids all over the place, they are more disciplined and do drills all the time to nail down fundamentals. The kids overseas are small pros, the kids in the US are small APA players LOL It's actually similar to how women vs men pros are, there may be a few top women players that can play at the top levels, but there are 30 top men for every one of them. Same thing for US juniors, there maybe 2-3 under 18s that can play with the majority of top kids overseas, but there are way more kids overseas to match that.
 
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Gorramjayne said:
The problem is that there isn't really a clear cutoff as far as what an amateur is that conforms to a consistent definition between the various US and Europe organizing bodies. And even if you could fix a definition, it would hardly be a contest. Parts of Europe have so many talented junior players that you can see a very high and more importantly consistent level of play from European amateurs, because there's just higher level competition. Americans typically come to the game (in a serious way, not counting very informal exposure) later in life and having to be adults and make a living, it's much rarer for an American amateur player to be able to put in the kind of time to compete the late teen and early 20-somethings do in Europe while they do not have to be as self-sufficient..

If we had card-carrying professionals....then we could have amateurs.
Edit:

That said, (and given the reluctance to put cue sports in the olympics) I think we should nix the Mosconi Cup and World Cup of Pool and have a Cue Sports Olympics, where we have both singles and doubles in multiple events, 8-ball, 9-ball, 10-ball, American Rotation, and Snooker, with a juniors division running alongside in every category. That way large countries could field far more than 5 players and you wouldn't have the many many countries in Europe represented by only 5 players, sometimes two or three from the same country.
Click to expand...

I love the idea of a billiard Olympics....but it shouldn't favor pool players.
The games....Straight pool on a 9-footer
3-cushion on a 10-footer
Snooker on a 12-footer
 
pt109 said:
I love the idea of a billiard Olympics....but it shouldn't favor pool players.
The games....Straight pool on a 9-footer
3-cushion on a 10-footer
Snooker on a 12-footer
Click to expand...

Let's go further if it's a proper olympics we need to include Pyramid, Englsih pool, Chinese Pool, Bar Billiards, bar boxes etc.

I'd also throw in 10-Ball on a 10 footer...

(Personally I'd also prefer straight pool on a 10 footer, but that's just me, I appreciate that view may be unpopular).
 
IMO it would be virtually impossible to hold an amateur MC for players over 18. Like Gorramjayne said it is far too difficult to tell the difference between a pro and amateur nowadays. My definition of a pro pool player may be different that another person's definition. I consider the title of pro in regards to the percentage of money won from pool vs money from other sources of income but there are probably monster players all over the world who play pro speed who may be able to hold a steady job until they hit the big time.
There is also the issue of amateurs taking time from work and family to attend an amateur MC. Most amateurs seem to play in weekend events that last 2 days tops (3 if there is a special holiday tournament) and taking even more time off to prepare for a MC might not be possible.
Just being honest: I root for the U.S. every MC but if the professional MC in the last several years is any indication, I would not want to watch an amateur MC where America loses again. If pros can't get it done, what makes you think American amateur players can hold a light to the European amateurs who are schooled in pool?
 
vjmehra said:
Let's go further if it's a proper olympics we need to include Pyramid, Englsih pool, Chinese Pool, Bar Billiards, bar boxes etc.

I'd also throw in 10-Ball on a 10 footer...

(Personally I'd also prefer straight pool on a 10 footer, but that's just me, I appreciate that view may be unpopular).
Click to expand...

English pool and Chinese pool is the same, England had had snooker pockets on their bar tables for at least 40 years that I'm aware of, way before China even knew what pool was.
 
hang-the-9 said:
Atlantic Cup, CSI just uploaded some videos of that on YouTube if you want to watch.

The Europe and Asian kids are much better trained than the US kids. MUCH better. In the US, if your parents don't take you to play, there are pretty much 0 programs for kids to join, and you'd never know about them unless you are around pool.

In Europe and Asia, billiards is in schools, there are coaching for kids all over the place, they are more disciplined and do drills all the time to nail down fundamentals. The kids overseas are small pros, the kids in the US are small APA players LOL It's actually similar to how women vs men pros are, there may be a few top women players that can play at the top levels, but there are 30 top men for every one of them. Same thing for US juniors, there maybe 2-3 under 18s that can play with the majority of top kids overseas, but there are way more kids overseas to match that.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I understand. Every once in awhile, there are US junior players that can compete and win against the top junior players of Europe and Asia. I am not sure, but I think that I remember hearing that Andy Quin did really well overseas in the junior world championships, and Mike Coltrain won the world junior title, I think, unless I heard wrong about that. I wonder how often the US Junior players do well at the junior world championships (BCA I think). I wonder how well Justin Bergman did, and Skyler Woodward. And other juniors, like Landon Shuffett, and Jesse Bowman. I know there are many other great junior players of the past that I am missing, but I do not know my pool history too well. John Morra is another name that I can think of, and I just wonder how these guys did (at a young age) against the worlds best juniors.
 
bazkook said:
IMO it would be virtually impossible to hold an amateur MC for players over 18. Like Gorramjayne said it is far too difficult to tell the difference between a pro and amateur nowadays. My definition of a pro pool player may be different that another person's definition. I consider the title of pro in regards to the percentage of money won from pool vs money from other sources of income but there are probably monster players all over the world who play pro speed who may be able to hold a steady job until they hit the big time.
There is also the issue of amateurs taking time from work and family to attend an amateur MC. Most amateurs seem to play in weekend events that last 2 days tops (3 if there is a special holiday tournament) and taking even more time off to prepare for a MC might not be possible.
Just being honest: I root for the U.S. every MC but if the professional MC in the last several years is any indication, I would not want to watch an amateur MC where America loses again. If pros can't get it done, what makes you think American amateur players can hold a light to the European amateurs who are schooled in pool?
Click to expand...

You make some great points. I have asked this question in the past, but I keep wondering just how many really great US players are out there (guys that had to get a full time regular job to make a living, that could have played pool for a living, if it payed well enough). I do understand why the European players are so good. Their fundamentals are pretty flawless. They are like perfect robots at the pool table. They seem to have a very strong mental game too.
 
pt109 said:
Um, carom players and snooker players are not necessarily pool players.

:scratchhead:....I thought with your expertise, you might have noticed the difference.
Click to expand...

Yeah, pool players play on pool tables. You did mention straight pool though (for pool players, right?).
 
pt109 said:
I love the idea of a billiard Olympics....but it shouldn't favor pool players.
The games....Straight pool on a 9-footer
3-cushion on a 10-footer
Snooker on a 12-footer
Click to expand...

justinb386 said:
Yeah, pool players play on pool tables. You did mention straight pool though (for pool players, right?).
Click to expand...

This was my original post....it doesn't favorite pool players...
...it puts them on an EQUAL footing with 3-cushion and snooker players.
ONE discipline for each type of table....that is fair.
 
Nobody wants to watch straight pool especially in a contest of national pride. I'm the high commissioner and here's the events:

Chinese 8-ball singles on a Joy table
8-ball scotch doubles on a bar box
15-ball American Roation, 9 foot Diamon Pro-Am
9-ball scotch doubles, 9 foot Diamond Pro-Am
10-ball singles on a 10 foot Diamond
Snooker with tournament-cut pockets.
.

The only way I'll let 14.1 in is if it's played on the Joy table with a shot clock, and teams of 5 rotating by inning. Nobody wants to watch the same three players just put together 100-ball runs the whole time and freeze everybody else out. You know either Appleton and Hohmann would make the event look like it's just a one-man show.

Edit: I forgot to mention we're also having speed pool and will consider allowing the Eastern bloc to petition for Pyramid to be included just so we have that one wacky sport that everybody makes fun of but watches anyway. Three cushion may make it in eventually.
 
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