Tight pockets are NOT good for the game!

B

brunswick1901

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Nolan Bushell founder of Atari said,

“All the best games are easy to learn and difficult to master”.

Tight pockets do the opposite, the tight pockets discourage new players.

A real world example was the very successful House of Billiards in Santa Monica California.

The front four Brunswick Gold Crowns had tight pockets and the other fourteen Gold Crowns had the standard 4 and ¾ inch pockets.

There was one waiting list, if you wanted one of the tight pocket tables 11 - 14 appeared after your name.

From a business stand point they had the best of both worlds, tables for the good players and tables for the general public.

How can we expect to attract new players if we make it hard for the new players to play the game?
 
I am an advocate of playing on big pool tables with tight pockets. I wish that 10’ pool tables was still in vogue.
Alas, I’m quick to admit that I’m a dinosaur and for the sake of the game that commercially depends upon a
customer patronage, the more satisfying the pool room experience, the sooner your customers want to return.

Recurrent revenue streams are what the pool industry depends upon and paying pool under the conditions that
the pros play on is too much too challenging for a large segment of the pool playing public. That’s why amateurs
don’t play the same tee boxes on the same courses pros do in any PGA event. The course condition is longer with
faster greens but when you are a good amateur golfer with a really low golf handicap, then you’d enormously enjoy
playing the course with the same conditions the pros play. Well, the same can be said about pool for a lot of players.

I can make any shot a pro could usually play even if it took several attempts. But I also can run the pool table and a pro couldn’t do much better, although they likely would make it look easier. So I want to play under the toughest conditions
and the only way to do that is playing on big pool tables with the tightest pockets. It is more of a challenge and when
you conquer the conditions and play really well, the satisfaction you derive is enormous. Plus, it also differentiates
the caliber of your pool skills & you compete under the exact same conditions as the pros but it’s not for everyone.

The original post is right. In order for the billiards industry to grow, the pool playing public needs to increase in number.
When people enjoy the activity or experience, any experience, they are more inclined to repeat it. That’scommon sense.
So a combination of tables would seem to be in order and some pool rooms are already doing this on some scale.
 
I want pro’s playing with tight pockets. I like seeing them actually miss now and then lol I do a lot of comparisons with golf and this is another. A pro course is set up a lot tougher than your local track.
That being said if I owned a pool hall I think 4.25 pockets are more than tight enough. It’s not impossible to run out but it’s still challenging.
If I owned a bar and the tables were just money makers I would have 4 3/4 inch pockets. I don’t want the drunks taking all night to play a game lol the sooner they put the balls in the hole the sooner they have to put in more money lol The bar I play leagues for got rid of their valley for a diamond and even though they now charge $1 a game instead of 50 cents they aren’t making any more money . They can see it takes the average bar player twice as long to play a game.
 
Not everything worth doing needs instant gratification.

Violinists spend years practicing before they can even produce correct sounding notes.

Three cushion players need tremendous knowledge to achieve an average score of 1 point per inning.

There are more people willing to achieve difficult things, as a student of the art, then you think. The others (I am looking at you America) get used to dopamine hits instead.
 
nataddrho said:
Not everything worth doing needs instant gratification.

Violinists spend years practicing before they can even produce correct sounding notes.

Three cushion players need tremendous knowledge to achieve an average score of 1 point per inning.

There are more people willing to achieve difficult things, as a student of the art, then you think. The others (I am looking at you America) get used to dopamine hits instead.
Click to expand...
But places that develop more 3C players often have 8’ tables that players start on and all start on straight rail. 3C on the full size table comes later. (Not how it is in the US I know). The violinist doesn’t start on the most difficult piece for the violin, whatever that is-I have no idea.

You need to bring players along if you are serious about developing them. In the US developing pool players is a pretty low priority. Whatever else we do, making the equipment super tough for lower level players isn’t likely to help. Maybe it won’t hurt that much. But as mentioned above, most players need tight pockets as much as a 20 handicap golfer needs to play from 7300 yards.
 
A lot of people just wanting to have fun don’t like tight pockets. They couldn’t care less about pro pool and they wouldn’t be able to pick any of the top players out of a lineup.
They just want to have fun. Some of them don’t even realize that the pockets at the hall are intentionally “smaller” than a lot of the tables they play on. They think something is wrong with them. I’ve asked many fun loving bangers to play at the hall and they just say, “it’s no fun, the balls just rattle in the hole but don’t go in”
 
Bavafongoul said:
I am an advocate of playing on big pool tables with tight pockets. I wish that 10’ pool tables was still in vogue.
Alas, I’m quick to admit that I’m a dinosaur and for the sake of the game that commercially depends upon a
customer patronage, the more satisfying the pool room experience, the sooner your customers want to return.

Recurrent revenue streams are what the pool industry depends upon and paying pool under the conditions that
the pros play on is too much too challenging for a large segment of the pool playing public. That’s why amateurs
don’t play the same tee boxes on the same courses pros do in any PGA event. The course condition is longer with
faster greens but when you are a good amateur golfer with a really low golf handicap, then you’d enormously enjoy
playing the course with the same conditions the pros play. Well, the same can be said about pool for a lot of players.

I can make any shot a pro could usually play even if it took several attempts. But I also can run the pool table and a pro couldn’t do much better, although they likely would make it look easier. So I want to play under the toughest conditions
and the only way to do that is playing on big pool tables with the tightest pockets. It is more of a challenge and when
you conquer the conditions and play really well, the satisfaction you derive is enormous. Plus, it also differentiates
the caliber of your pool skills & you compete under the exact same conditions as the pros but it’s not for everyone.

The original post is right. In order for the billiards industry to grow, the pool playing public needs to increase in number.
When people enjoy the activity or experience, any experience, they are more inclined to repeat it. That’scommon sense.
So a combination of tables would seem to be in order and some pool rooms are already doing this on some scale.
Click to expand...
This is the wrong analogy. If I go play Pebble or Beth Page I get a choice to play from the tips or not. Pocket size would be like putting bigger cups in when the pros aren't playing. Golf has tried both bigger holes and encouraging people to "play up.". Playing up has been modestly successful. Bigger holes has been soundly rejected by players. The same thing has happened with pool. Bangers don't really tolerate playing on looser equipment than the pros. You start to see Diamonds with tighter and tighter pockets trickling into pool rooms, "like the pros.". We've got short and long tables. A second variable isn't and won't really be tolerated by players. It's a good way to sell more tables though.

Watch what happens with the new ball rule. Every hacker on earth will be pitching their old non-conforming balls and playing the new and unimproved ones. Because, yes Gary, if we gave you that extra 2 yards off the tee we might mistake you for DJ.
 
Last edited:
Ghost of OBC said:
This is the wrong analogy. If I go play Pebble or Beth Page I get a choice to play from the tips or not. Pocket size would be like putting bigger cups in when the pros aren't playing. Golf has tried both bigger holes and encouraging people to "play up.". Playing up has been modestly successful. Bigger holes has been soundly rejected by players. The same thing has happened with pool. Bangers don't really tolerate playing on looser equipment than the pros. You start to see Diamonds with tighter and tighter pockets trickling into pool rooms, "like the pros.". We've got short and long tables. A second variable isn't and won't really be tolerated by players. It's a good way to sell more tables though.

Watch what happens with the new ball rule. Every hacker on earth will be pitching their old non-conforming balls and playing the new and unimproved ones. Because, yes Gary, if we gave you that extra 2 yards off the tee we might mistake you for DJ.
Click to expand...
I think part of the problem is the players who aren’t good insisting on tight pockets. They might be better served to improve on moderate equipment before going to tighter tables. I also don’t think the analogy of the size of the hole in golf vs. the pocket size is quite right. I’m not sure why. Maybe because putting is different. Maybe because tight pockets in pool have more similarities to a hazard in golf. By that I mean if you hit the rail a little too far before the pocket the penalty can be worse than leaving a putt on the lip. It is more like playing into a severe bunker or water that will cost you at least a stroke.
 
Might not be the pockets but the culture. Fun people have a hard time celebrating themselves in the presence of the tight pocket super strokers. I don't much GAF. Mediocrity hurts the fine arts - like pool.
 
trob said:
I want pro’s playing with tight pockets. I like seeing them actually miss now and then lol I do a lot of comparisons with golf and this is another. A pro course is set up a lot tougher than your local track.
That being said if I owned a pool hall I think 4.25 pockets are more than tight enough. It’s not impossible to run out but it’s still challenging.
If I owned a bar and the tables were just money makers I would have 4 3/4 inch pockets. I don’t want the drunks taking all night to play a game lol the sooner they put the balls in the hole the sooner they have to put in more money lol The bar I play leagues for got rid of their valley for a diamond and even though they now charge $1 a game instead of 50 cents they aren’t making any more money . They can see it takes the average bar player twice as long to play a game.
Click to expand...
Add worn in cloth to the tight pockets and you would see the pros miss a lot more. Sometimes you may even question whether they are pros.
 
"I think part of the problem is the players who aren’t good insisting on tight pockets. They might be better served to improve on moderate equipment before going to tighter tables."
Click to expand...

This is the problem. Bad players, when given the opportunity, won't use the easier equipment. They demand the equipment that is "like the pros use." It seems to be something to do with human nature. If there is an objective, consistent part of a game, human nature seems to demand that it be consistent for everyone. Most people would have more fun playing basketball on lower hoops, volleyball and tennis on lower nets, soccer on small fields etc. but they don't, because "it is not the same game." So, rooms move to tables their customers say they want, and league nights require a calendar, golf rounds take 6 hours, etc. The 6 hour round nearly killed golf, because courses were giving the player what they thought they wanted.

As for the pros, how about we take away the jump cue. Most bangers don't enjoy the luxury and most rooms would appreciate not encouraging them to try.
 
Last edited:
Am I missing something? The OP is making it sound like some doom and gloom 1984 scenario where the pool table police rounded up all the tables with buckets and replaced them with tight tables. I’m not opposed to buckets for casual players, beginners, leagues, etc. Serious players should play on tight equipment and most certainly professional, world class players should. I know the bar box is the gateway to pool for most, but I personally feel the bar table is one of the reasons we are far behind other countries in terms of player development. It is a US phenomena. I know we aren’t getting rid of them but please, if you know an impressionable young person who shows interest in pool, point them in the direction of the nearest 9‘ table, buckets or otherwise.
 
Losing 14.1 as a big table starter game may have hurt U.S. pool more than we've realized. The game is easy to understand and it's easy for beginners to play. If you can only run a few balls it's probably the best game to play on a 9 footer. Just recently, I realized I never really cracked the interest code for my son. I just couldn't find a game that got him into playing. I figured I would have been better off with a bar table because the bar to entry wouldn't have been so high. Here recently, playing with modified 9 ball rules has piqued his interest. I haven't caught him practicing yet but he's right on the fence.

The game being played on the table matters more than the pocket specs but having them too tight doesn't help grow the game. Having said that, I do like the tighter pockets for the big dogs.
 
BasementDweller said:
Losing 14.1 as a big table starter game may have hurt U.S. pool more than we've realized. The game is easy to understand and it's easy for beginners to play. If you can only run a few balls it's probably the best game to play on a 9 footer. Just recently, I realized I never really cracked the interest code for my son. I just couldn't find a game that got him into playing. I figured I would have been better off with a bar table because the bar to entry wouldn't have been so high. Here recently, playing with modified 9 ball rules has piqued his interest. I haven't caught him practicing yet but he's right on the fence.

The game being played on the table matters more than the pocket specs but having them too tight doesn't help grow the game. Having said that, I do like the tighter pockets for the big dogs.
Click to expand...
Another game you might try is seven ball, like the old Seagram's Seven Ball series on ESPN. If I recall, rotation like nineball, one called safety per rack, then bih after any miss. Adjusting the safety and break rules you could make it competitive. It's also common to make two or more on the break so even relatively novice players sometimes break and run. I think a lot of league players would have more fun playing 7 ball than 9 or 10.
 
It's called practice. If every sport was easy to master nobody would make money. Go play on kitty tables an when your ready to play on real table move to a real table. Dumbest post I've seen yet.
 
I think pool is boring to watch because we're normally watching pros that make the game look easy. So easy it's boring to watch them.

Personally, I want to be impressed when I see someone run a rack. I want to see their emotions when they miss. I want to see them sweat every shot because the pockets are so tight. I want to see old guys be able to compete with young guns because they can outsmart them on the table. To me, tight pockets add more complexity and makes games more interesting to watch. Seriously, does anyone really enjoy watching Filler or Gorst run through open racks like machines?

I used to enjoy watching one pocket when there was battling over ever ball. It was like watching a chess match. Now it battling to someone leaves a shot then they run their 8.
 
I think i can make a pretty good case for bigger pockets for average/recreational play. My local place has 10 nice GC4's. Six of them have 4.25" corners and four are 4.5". Almost all are too tight for your JoePublic fun play. Why they tightened so many is beyond me. Keeping a couple tight for the good players is fine but the rest should be a min of 4.5" if not bigger. Most of the play here is non-tournament/non-action, just casual drink/eat/shoot folk. I watch them do nothing miss. Game needs to be fun for JoeBanger.
 
garczar said:
I think i can make a pretty good case for bigger pockets for average/recreational play. My local place has 10 nice GC4's. Six of them have 4.25" corners and four are 4.5". Almost all are too tight for your JoePublic fun play. Why they tightened so many is beyond me. Keeping a couple tight for the good players is fine but the rest should be a min of 4.5" if not bigger. Most of the play here is non-tournament/non-action, just casual drink/eat/shoot folk. I watch them do nothing miss. Game needs to be fun for JoeBanger.
Click to expand...
I always cringe a bit when I see beginners/casual players playing on 9' Diamond tables. They are simply too difficult for them. It's not fun to bunt balls around for 45 minutes in a single game of 8 ball. So they might come away with the impression that pool is too difficult and/or boring.
 
BlueRaider said:
I always cringe a bit when I see beginners/casual players playing on 9' Diamond tables. They are simply too difficult for them. It's not fun to bunt balls around for 45 minutes in a single game of 8 ball. So they might come away with the impression that pool is too difficult and/or boring.
Click to expand...
A 9ft diamond with LeagueCut pockets would be ok but ProCut or smaller i totally agree with.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top