To all the scientifically inclined folks...Does the grip hand position matter?
- Thread starter spoons
- Start date
During the forward stroke, the force you apply starts out at zero, rises to some peak value, then falls back to some lower positive, zero or negative value. Moving the grip hand forward tends to make it negative before the tip reaches the ball; the cue is decelerating or slowing down. Moving the grip back tends to keep it positive; the cue is still accelerating or speeding up at impact. As Big C said, forward means less cue speed, back means more cue speed, generally speaking.spoons said:
If you plot the force applied by the hand against time, it's hill shaped. If the peak occurs early on (the curve is skewed to the left), you get less cue speed. If the peak occurs late (the curve is skewed to the right), you get more cue speed.
One way of looking at it is to consider the cue's kinetic energy. Divide the distance the cue travels (bridge length) into very small intervals. As the cue passes over each of these intervals, its kinetic energy is increased by an amount equal to the magnitude of the applied force at that point, multiplied by the length of that interval. Its kinetic energy at impact is the sum of all these contributions (technically, the integral of Fdx). To get maximum cue speed, for instance, you would want it to be passing over as many intervals as possible when the applied force is large. This is achieved by delaying the peak force until the cue has built up appreciable velocity. Moving the grip hand back tends to accomplish this.
(But, just to note, you wouldn't want the peak delayed until impact. That would be too much of a good thing. Rather, and this depends on the exact shape of the force-time curve, you would want it happening at roughly 50% of the traveled distance to the cue ball. Timewise, that's about 70-80% into the stroke.)
Jim
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Dan, your diagrams assume that the pivot point is fixed in space, like it would be for a normal human. As you say, they assume that the only thing changing is the grip hand position.
Since that's exactly what I said in my earlier questions, I can understand why what I was trying to ask wasn't coming across.
Diagrams are a good idea. I see where the disconnect is between what I wanted to know, what I asked, and the ways it could be interpreted. I figured it was a problem with the way I was asking the question, I just wasn't sure what that problem was. Let's try this:
Let's assume that the bridge is a mechanical bridge- unattached to the pivot point or the back arm. And, let's assume that we can move the pivot point of the mechanical arm from your diagram forward and backward relative to the cue, therefore changing the grip position on the cue. This is what I was trying to describe with the robot example. We could pretty easily build a robot to do that. Now, assume that the robot arm performs the exact same stroke in all cases.
Using a robot that generates an identical stroke for both, is there any difference between the force imparted on the cue ball between the two scenarios in the diagram below?
Thanks again for sticking with this. Hopefully this time I've explained what I want to know a little better.
Since that's exactly what I said in my earlier questions, I can understand why what I was trying to ask wasn't coming across.
Diagrams are a good idea. I see where the disconnect is between what I wanted to know, what I asked, and the ways it could be interpreted. I figured it was a problem with the way I was asking the question, I just wasn't sure what that problem was. Let's try this:
Let's assume that the bridge is a mechanical bridge- unattached to the pivot point or the back arm. And, let's assume that we can move the pivot point of the mechanical arm from your diagram forward and backward relative to the cue, therefore changing the grip position on the cue. This is what I was trying to describe with the robot example. We could pretty easily build a robot to do that. Now, assume that the robot arm performs the exact same stroke in all cases.
Using a robot that generates an identical stroke for both, is there any difference between the force imparted on the cue ball between the two scenarios in the diagram below?
Thanks again for sticking with this. Hopefully this time I've explained what I want to know a little better.
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spoons said:
Thanks again for sticking with this. Hopefully this time I've explained what I want to know a little better.
both of those diagrams are correct..but since you cannot change the length of your arms one position will work better for YOU than any other..
softshot said:
Thank you.
I'm not actually curious about this as to how it would relate into my own game. I'm exploring a theory.
For instance, do people with broader shoulders, and say, a longer cue have an inherent advantage, because they are able to naturally grip the cue farther back, and still use the same bridge length, while maintaining a perpendicular back arm?
There are other applications as well, but I don't want to cloud the discussion on this thread. I'm having a hard enough time communicating my primary question
spoons said:Thank you.
I'm not actually curious about this as to how it would relate into my own game. I'm exploring a theory.
For instance, do people with broader shoulders, and say, a longer cue have an inherent advantage, because they are able to naturally grip the cue farther back, and still use the same bridge length, while maintaining a perpendicular back arm?
There are other applications as well, but I don't want to cloud the discussion on this thread. I'm having a hard enough time communicating my primary question
I think I understand your question.. and no I don't think it matters..what matters is that you are level and accurate at impact..
if you want more or less mass hitting the cueball.. change the weight of your cuestick..
a small person with a heavy cuestick has more mass on impact than a very large person with a lighter cuestick.. the grip has nothing to do with that aspect..
spoons said:
i'll leave you with a thought and if you're so inclined you can figure out the answer to your question from this.......
if you're more "choked up" with your back hand (ie hand is closer to the tip) and you deviate laterally (to the side) one way or another with this hand position, will there be more lateral deviation with your hand where it is, or further back (ie choking down, hand further form the tip). Therein lies the answer for me -- i started shooting balls in from cb frozen to a rail MUCH more accurately when i lengthened my bridge a tad and moved my back hand back.
icem3n said:
Again, my purpose for starting this discussion wasn't to implement it into my own game. A discussion in another thread prompted me to wonder on a purely physical basis.
To answer your question though, yes, I shorten my bridge for very soft shots-especially in tight quarters. I adjust my grip to compensate so that I can maintain a consistent body position and back arm angle. I find it's easier to control speed with a shorter stroke and bridge than with a longer one.
Likewise, if I'm reaching, over a ball or need to extend my bridge length for some other reason, I move my hand back on the cue for the same reasons.
I think that is actually common practice for a lot of players.
enzo said:
WOW! While lengthening my bridge helps when the cue ball is frozen to the rail, (because I have a tendency to have a very short bridge when the cue is on the rail) moving my grip hand forward reduces my power which seems to increase my accuracy.
I guess there are many ways to get the end result.
JoeyA
When the cue ball is against the rail, my bridge length is usually determined by how I need to place my hand to make my bridge as stable as possible, AND allow me to execute whatever shot I need.
Are you guys saying you use a certain bridge length every time against the rail?
Are you guys saying you use a certain bridge length every time against the rail?
spoons:spoons said:
To answer the last sentence / question in your post, there's another thread about this very topic here:
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=118332
Hope this is helpful,
-Sean
spoons said:
For me; when the cue ball is frozen to the rail, I have a tendency to crowd the cue ball (get closer to the cue ball than is appropriate for me). If I purposefully move my bridge hand further away from the cue ball, I seem to increase my accuracy. By moving my bridge hand further away from the cue ball, I generally also move all of my body further away from the frozen cue ball, thereby giving a better aiming perspective on the shot.
The rail is a very small place and there are very few places on the rail to place your hand when the cue is frozen to it. There are different style bridges that can be used to accomodate shots but I think a set bridge length is pretty standard on a frozen cue ball especially when shooting directly away from the rail.
I am kind of surprised that some people move their hand to the rear of the cue on a cue ball that is frozen to the rail. I move mine forward and have a little more accuracy it seems.
I hate to change anything that is working but I may have to go back to the table to see if holding the cue further back with the grip hand is any better. I hate to hear someone is doing something that I don't do and getting better results than I do.
JoeyA