To be totally honest

7

7forlife

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I love pool and anyone that knows me know how much I do. That being said I have "watched" a lot of footage, watched not looked at, and I have come to notice that when comes to more recent years and not the mosconi years, so like the Sigel and Varner and those guys era I find that it was quite amazing the difference in styles meaning fundamentals that I saw. Now i'm not talking about the Keith type also, what I mean is that modern players/games are much more smooth than the older days, it seemed like they "although having good speed control and cue ball direction knowledge" they relied more on their ball pocketing skills that anything else.
They almost seem like banger at times and less as cuest. And also this is not being bias because I was from that time or not but it just feels that watching pool now feels a lot more fluid that then.
would you agree? or maybe like to shed some light or input on the matter. (or not, it's just my thoughts anyway)
 
Your observations are correct. Cue sports in america (chiefly) left the template for great cueing, and evolved in different directions. This lead to unique styles and ways of playing that seem incongruous to today's game.

Diversity can be a great strength. It can also be a tremendous weakness.
 
Much of it has to do with the equipment. Super fast cloth, rails and perfect slate beds. Now you can send the cueball 3 rails and land it on a dime with 1/3 of your stroke. Most pro pool played on brand new cloth in air conditioned comfort. Nothing like before and it has become an easier game.
 
good call on that but i think Ron also called it. It comes down to styles, watch the americans play doubles in the worlds and mosconi, watch them play in the chinese 8 ball and watch the rest of the world play. Also look at both current players and older one still playing (shane and earl) and see how the played in the 8 ball. they can be see as trying to muscle the ball more that the others "IMO"


thanks for the input guys
 
What Robert Byrne Said

7forlife said:
I love pool and anyone that knows me know how much I do. That being said I have "watched" a lot of footage, watched not looked at, and I have come to notice that when comes to more recent years and not the mosconi years, so like the Sigel and Varner and those guys era I find that it was quite amazing the difference in styles meaning fundamentals that I saw. Now i'm not talking about the Keith type also, what I mean is that modern players/games are much more smooth than the older days, it seemed like they "although having good speed control and cue ball direction knowledge" they relied more on their ball pocketing skills that anything else.
They almost seem like banger at times and less as cuest. And also this is not being bias because I was from that time or not but it just feels that watching pool now feels a lot more fluid that then.
would you agree? or maybe like to shed some light or input on the matter. (or not, it's just my thoughts anyway)
Click to expand...

If you want an eye opener on fundamentals, stance etc. Just read what Robert Byrne said and I would think that he knew what he was talking about. You wont find so many perfectisms in his take on things. He leaves a lot for comfort and player development. Ive seen some really good players with some strange fundamentals but they seem to work for them.
 
Every great player should have their own unique style. I know it seems there are a lot of cookie cutter type players, but they do it that way because it works for them. I often wonder about the difference between the generations. It all really has to do with the equipment.

I started playing in 1990 and played in many pool halls in many places in this country. I had never played on brand new 860 until 2005. I mean brand new installed that day. The difference was night and day. I had never felt more in control of the cue ball and instantly my game changed. The pool hall I play in now refelted half the room for the state tournament in March. bouncing back and forth from the new felt to the old felt is quite difficult to do. On the new felt you can hit everything fluidly and play three and four rail shape quite comfortably. On the older felt you have to muscle everything. When you feel you have to over hit everything your stroke is different. Everybody comes up with there own changes that fit their body type and learned athleticism, this becomes more obvious the more you have to do it. If you had to watch Shane play on old muddy felt where he had to muscle balls around you would see a difference in his stroke. As to the difference from the rest of the world, I don't think the difference is as much as you think.

I also watch a lot of pool and a lot of the international stuff. I have watched quite a bit of the Chinese eight ball. I still think the difference in the equipment is the culprit. Judging the American cueists based on their performance in a game they don't play much anymore on equipment that they don't play on is a little bit rash. The Chinese players grew up with these tables. The snooker players and the English eight ball players know the type of tables as well. Watching the international 9 and ten ball events where all the players are familiar with the equipment is a different scenario. I don't see these glaring problems with American's games. What I do see is a different culture surrounding pool in other nations. That may play a part in the perceived difference between us and the rest of the world.

Just my two cents
Eric
 
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Robin i agree, thats why i pointed out "or singled out" Keith. But looking at todays pool and yesterday you can really see a difference and then you would have to single out buddy, but only to a certain extent. I'm mean look at Earl, "IMO" very aggressive cue ball and at times stroke, without that smoothness or deceleration for it to look smooth like the pinoys. Its there accuracy (shot making) and ability or understanding of CB direction that wows us not that fluid pool that newer players have. AND STILL, thats only few, because they adapt that old school style "i guess cause they're told thats pool, just like breaking hard" unlike what you see from asia and euro.
 
41 totally agree with you on equipment playing a roll, good call, makes sense. Judging the players? let me clear that part up. I'm not trying to start a flame war about that, what i am saying or judging them on is the "way" that they play. And as professionals they should adapt, these races are long enough.

just my $0.02 also, i feel like i made an observation and was looking for some chit chat on it. totally agree and never gave it mush thought about that cloth but also that its the mentality and the times. Like i always like to joke about how eeeeeeeeeevery announcer in the 20's and such all spoke like this...
(1920's announcer voice)
And folks, we, are, live, at the, 35th US Open, and, the young, kid, from, south, dakota, called the south dakota kid or svb is UP next. you, can, just, feel, the, tension folks.

i do a better live impression but you know what I'm talking about, hard to put into text. Now today, they sound nothing like that, not even close or a single person.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZ43UC5tIOY
 
IMHO 90% of the change in style is because of the faster cloth.

Go back to slow cloth and Rodney Morris would be #1.
 
In no way was my post meant to be aggressive. I always pay attention to what and how the top players do what they do so I can implement some of those things into my own game. The best way to learn is by watching. The older generations of players did not have the knowledge base to draw on that even the complete beginner has nowadays. The older players were left more to their own devices and knowledge at times was a well guarded trade secret. I think even the beginner has a huge leg up on the generations before, and learning curves are far shorter than before. Couple that with increasingly accurate equipment and you have the typical type of progress that you would expect to see in any sport.

I will make one more defense for the Chinese eight ball. I think the americans played improper patterns and positions because they didn't understand the equipment as well as the other players. I don't think that a couple of tournaments is enough for even world class players to completely adjust to what amounts to a drastic change in equipment. On a Chinese eight ball table what would be an open and easy runout becomes a safety battle because there are a lot of "open" shots that are not really makeable on that table given the pocket angles and pocket sizes. I can tell I would fire at and miss a lot of shots if I were to play on those tables.
 
The real difference between back then and now is pocket size. In the past, with pockets generally being much larger, players if they could Just ''see the ball'' could make it. Nowadays that's not the case, very little room for position error. Years ago, you could easily get away with position error and still run out.
 
41 not you, I meant that I wasn't trying to start a whole discussion about american players and the rest of the world or how who plays overseas.
 
7forlife said:
I love pool and anyone that knows me know how much I do. That being said I have "watched" a lot of footage, watched not looked at, and I have come to notice that when comes to more recent years and not the mosconi years, so like the Sigel and Varner and those guys era I find that it was quite amazing the difference in styles meaning fundamentals that I saw. Now i'm not talking about the Keith type also, what I mean is that modern players/games are much more smooth than the older days, it seemed like they "although having good speed control and cue ball direction knowledge" they relied more on their ball pocketing skills that anything else.
They almost seem like banger at times and less as cuest. And also this is not being bias because I was from that time or not but it just feels that watching pool now feels a lot more fluid that then.
would you agree? or maybe like to shed some light or input on the matter. (or not, it's just my thoughts anyway)
Click to expand...

Not to bump an older thread, but I find this debate interesting.

The reason for the vast variety of styles in the older days is because pretty much all of those players were self-taught learning from other self-taught players in pool halls. There might've been certified instructors in those days, but nothing like today, and if someone at a young age displayed any talent for the game, their parents just couldn't simply call up an instructor to teach them "proper" mechanics and form. Same with the Filipino players of the day, and even to this day.

Equipment evolution is another big factor, as others have said. You can now use cookie cutter mechanics optimized for accuracy (the whole chin on the cue, pause during backswing, more open hand bridge than closed bridge, keep wrist movement to a minimum) at the expense of power and still get great cue ball action.

Sure, pockets are tighter today, but the tables are still easier than the tables of the past. I've always had greater run out success on the Ernesto-cut 4.25" pockets at my local room with its fast cloth and perfectly level setup than my home table with 5" pockets and nap cloth in my non-climate controlled garage.

Many American pool players honed their games in places with less than optimal conditions.
 
erhino41 said:
... On a Chinese eight ball table what would be an open and easy runout becomes a safety battle because there are a lot of "open" shots that are not really makeable on that table given the pocket angles and pocket sizes. ...
Click to expand...

You'd think so. But I watched 103 games of the 2015 World Chinese 8-Ball Masters. (Stats here: http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=386746) A safety was played in only 11 of those 103 games. On the other hand, 50 of the 103 were break-and-runout games.
 
I think most of the differences are due to two main factors:

1. Equipment.
2. Predominant game was str8 pool.

Al
 
In my opinion the only differences would come from the difference in table cloth, and balls, and quite possibly the atmospheric conditions of poolrooms. Most poolrooms today are air conditioned.
The table dimensions are the same. Cues are basically the same, albeit an inch longer now. That's about all I can think of. :smile:
 
I primarily attribute this difference to Simonis 860 cloth. Watching the old matches draw was the favored stroke. Today it's follow. All of this due to the extreme speed of the cloth.
 
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