Toolbox for 3C (Using Feel/Experience instead of Systems)

nataddrho

www.digicue.net
Silver Member
I have been studying 3C for some time, as it is my game of choice. I have worked with and had discussions with various high-level players and pros, as well as watched a lot of videos and experimented with a lot of shots. This is only a drop in the bucket compared to what more I have to learn.

I don’t use systems very much, if at all. Instead I use a “toolbox” of visual/predictable events. Here are the things that I have observed so far and that I’ve added to my toolbox. All of these rules of thumb can be modified with spin, follow, draw and speed.

Please feel free to add to this!

  • Proper shot selection is half of the game. Maybe worth even more. This can be practiced without a table.
  • Cue-tip position to generate draw, stun, and follow is extremely sensitive relative to the latitude from the equator of the ball. It is very important to be accurate in order to carom into the predicted part of the rail. Once you have very good tip position accuracy, carom accuracy becomes easier.
  • Stun can be used to track a tangent line into a rail.
  • Follow can be used to bend a ball into a rail, or get to places blocked by the first object ball. The follow grabs somewhere around ½ second after the hit, and you can use speed to change where the second-rail collision occurs after the first rail bounce. This is very useful… I notice a lot of beginners don’t understand how speed and follow/draw work together.
  • Draw is similar to follow but quite a bit more unpredictable, and the increased speed makes a kiss more probable.
  • Draw can be used to lengthen a return angle if care is used. Be careful of kisses.
  • Choosing between the first and second object ball, using a stun or follow carom, and choosing the direction, you have eight choices. Half of those are usually not possible, and the remaining may have kisses. But most of the time there is at least one option that optimally reduces a kiss, and this is the best choice.
  • Second diamond triple rebounds on one end of the table track to the opposing corners. Vice versa. Probably the most important rule in 3C. This pattern can be modified by changing your target diamond. Takes a little feel and experience but is better than trying to calculate a system in real time.
  • Three-rail rebounds leave the third rail at about 45 degrees. This is useful for short angles and picking out the diamond target for them.
  • Short angles are compressed the closer they are to the short rail, but become more sensitive to spin.
  • A single reversal rebound leaves the rail at about 60 degrees. Useful for short-long-long shots.
  • Tickies tend to track towards the head or foot spots. These can be modified with spin or follow, or a little draw. Too much draw can cause unpredicted results.
  • The rebound angle on a second-rail reversal is very speed dependent. It is best to try to play these with a little speed as possible so that the second-rail reversal has very little spin.
  • Maximum spin is not necessary for most shots. It is mostly useful when the second ball is deep in a corner and you want to maximize the target angle. Otherwise, natural running English and accurate carom targets are best.
  • Maximum spin to double a rail (three rebounds in a corner) are the most predictable the closer the cue ball is to the corner during first rail impact.
  • Short-rail-first shots are undesirable, especially short-long-short shots, because they are difficult. But they should be practiced anyway because a lot of the times they are the best choice to avoid kisses.
  • I find short-long-short shots with inside English going away from me more predictable than with using outside and coming towards me.
  • A frozen object ball to the long rail with a shallow angle can be easily negotiated by aiming outside edge to inside edge of the cue ball, using outside English hitting rail first. The reversal is predictable to come close to the corner you are shooting from.
  • With modest speed, banks into object balls carom at 30 degrees.
  • It is easier to use follow and speed to hold a cue ball up-table than it is to use stun and little spin.
 
Why go thru all that
when a system says hit this much ball with this spin voila!
and adjust the numbers for how the table plays
?
 
you said this above
  • Second diamond triple rebounds on one end of the table track to the opposing corners. Vice versa. Probably the most important rule in 3C. This pattern can be modified by changing your target diamond. Takes a little feel and experience but is better than trying to calculate a system in real time.
can you explain this alittle more
i dont understand
 
you said this above
  • Second diamond triple rebounds on one end of the table track to the opposing corners. Vice versa. Probably the most important rule in 3C. This pattern can be modified by changing your target diamond. Takes a little feel and experience but is better than trying to calculate a system in real time.
can you explain this alittle more
i dont understand
I think he's just talking about the standard three-railer from one corner to the other.

In my experience, a pool table can be second diamond and on a normal three cushion table, you aren't getting to the adjacent corner from the second diamond.

The modification would be to go shorter or longer to the end corner from the same start spot.

Most of us must know that stuff. As presented...one of the basic 3c rules of thumb.

You wouldn't use those words to write it though, I guess!
 
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Draw can be used to lengthen a return angle if care is used. Be careful of kisses.
This one is confusing to me. Are you talking about how hitting below the equator allows a greater ratio of spin to speed, resulting in a longer return, as opposed to actually drawing the cue ball off of a ball?

Drawing off a rail shortens the return angle.
 
This one is confusing to me. Are you talking about how hitting below the equator allows a greater ratio of spin to speed, resulting in a longer return, as opposed to actually drawing the cue ball off of a ball?

Drawing off a rail shortens the return angle.
Not snide at all and I'm sorry to not know if you are, but do you play 3c?

Those balls and cloth see incredibly different actions than pool balls.
 
Many people who are familiar with the literature of carom would say "corner-5" in that paragraph.
I'm not familiar with the term and I'm somewhat annoyed I am not more interested in studying the game.

Like I told Max: some of us just like to see the balls roll, man.
 
This one is confusing to me. Are you talking about how hitting below the equator allows a greater ratio of spin to speed, resulting in a longer return, as opposed to actually drawing the cue ball off of a ball?

Drawing off a rail shortens the return angle.
No. What I mean is that if you go three rails at a speed where the draw engages after the first or second rail impact, then the return angle will lengthen.

You are talking about a bank on a pool table where the coefficient of friction and restitution on he rails are different, and the draw engages very quickly. On a carom table the ball slides quite a bit before engaging, and by that time it is in a different location than it would be on a pool table.
 
Not snide at all and I'm sorry to not know if you are, but do you play 3c?

Those balls and cloth see incredibly different actions than pool balls.
No. What I mean is that if you go three rails at a speed where the draw engages after the first or second rail impact, then the return angle will lengthen.

You are talking about a bank on a pool table where the coefficient of friction and restitution on he rails are different, and the draw engages very quickly. On a carom table the ball slides quite a bit before engaging, and by that time it is in a different location than it would be on a pool table.
3C is my primary game but I only play a 0.4.

Here’s an example shot (shown in the video thumbnail) where draw is used while the ball is sliding in order to shorten the line. 8m28s

 
I think he's just talking about the standard three-railer from one corner to the other.

In my experience, a pool table can be second diamond and on a normal three cushion table, you aren't getting to the adjacent corner from the second diamond.

The modification would be to go shorter or longer to the end corner from the same start spot.

Most of us must know that stuff. As presented...one of the basic 3c rules of thumb.

You wouldn't use those words to write it though, I guess!
Many people who are familiar with the literature of carom would say "corner-5" in that paragraph.
thanks for the replies
 
This one is confusing to me. Are you talking about how hitting below the equator allows a greater ratio of spin to speed, resulting in a longer return, as opposed to actually drawing the cue ball off of a ball?

Drawing off a rail shortens the return angle.
I made an example for you. The two shots below are the same ball positions and hit with the same power. The one with the pink line uses a thicker carom angle and draw to bend the path of the ball to lengthen it (pink line).

Why do this?

The path of the red ball changes. It may be necessary to avoid a kiss, or even play better position (red ball to the center of the table.)

without draw.png


with draw.png
 
You most certainly can... and with a very low kiss percentage.

View attachment 709528
i think you picked one of the few examples of hitting the 2nd diamond on the FIRST rail and get to the corner
.......
using corner 5 as i know it
since you picked a starting point 4 aimed at 2 will go to 2 and track to the corner (green line)
in general the 3rd diamond on the third rail tracks to the first diamond on the short rail from the corner
even your diagram show the cue ball going about a half diamond from the corner
digiblue corner 5 example.png
 
i think you picked one of the few examples of hitting the 2nd diamond on the FIRST rail and get to the corner
.......
using corner 5 as i know it
since you picked a starting point 4 aimed at 2 will go to 2 and track to the corner (green line)
in general the 3rd diamond on the third rail tracks to the first diamond on the short rail from the corner
even your diagram show the cue ball going about a half diamond from the corner
View attachment 709530
With more thought I think I usually end up playing between the 2nd and 3rd diamond more often than I think. I play by feel and when I look it seems to be about 2.5 more than 2.
 
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I learned this almost 60 years ago. "When playing a 'Natural' long, short, long..., Using the 'Opposite English' (RHE contacting the 'left' side of the OB) your 'Starting position of the CB will be slightly Longer according to the 50 System CB starting point."

"When contacting the 'Same side of the OB and using the Same English' (Contacting right side of OB using RHE) the 50 System line will start a little, 'shorter.'"

An addendum: This axiom regards the OB being contacted 'More/Less' than 1/2 Full.
 
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The draw is bending the cue ball after the second cushion. I think it is very, very rare that any real player on a real table would shoot the shot like that to lengthen the path. Do you play on physical tables?
Yes, but rarely. Very hard to get to.

I have to live with pool tables or simulators for now.

What can I learn/practice with these? That is what I want as feedback to this thread.
 
Good idea about the simulator. I came home and played for a half hour, and recorded it as a video.

Nathan's Three Cushion Practice.

This is a good snapshot of how I play on a real table, (when I can get north of Boston) and I probably make the same choices.

PLEASE, feel free to analyze my shot selection and thought process!

Thank you in advance, always looking to learn more!
 
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Good idea about the simulator. I came home and played for a half hour, and recorded it as a video.

Nathan's Three Cushion Practice.

This is a good snapshot of how I play on a real table, (when I can get north of Boston) and I probably make the same choices.

PLEASE, feel free to analyze my shot selection and thought process!

Thank you in advance, always looking to learn more!
I only watched the first few minutes, but nice shooting and that app seems cool
 
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