Top Spin vs Force Follow

[ndakotan]

I think you should read what he actually said on the subject. The practical test to see if you can get overspin is in his "Advanced" book.

On the Jacksonville Project video, what I call "retrograde" spin was visible on one sequence. By retrograde, I mean that part of the cue ball is moving backwards relative to the table just after being struck by the cue stick. For a follow shot, this would mean that as the ball leaves the tip, the bottom of the cue ball is moving towards you not just relative to the center of the cue ball but relative to the table.

On a train going north, there is a part of every train car that is moving south at all times. What is that part?

Whether retrograde spin can be achieved depends on how well your tip sticks to the cue ball. Whether it lasts over a significant disantce is for you to test under your conditions.

I read his books again and I admit to simplification in writing the question. Byrne says that "overspin" follow on a rolling ball is negligiable because it cannot last long. However, I do not feel that this voids the premise of the question. Other "pro" teaching videos I've watched claim that you achieve overspin on a force follow shot, which contradicts Byrne's statements. Although I agree with Byrne, I am interested in the debate.

 

[csf914]

Maybe Im just plain dumb and dont understand all of the esotric energies and what trains have to do with pool. I feel follow and force follow are to different things. I tried my best to diagram a shot in Ray Martins 99 Critical Shots in pool that supposedly 9 out of 10 players do not know. Here it is. All Arrows are cueball movements we will just assume that the 1 went in the side on contact.

START(
%A[9Z7%CC8M0%Pg5O4%W]2Y7%Xg4O6%YI1Z6%ZY0Z5%bY7Z6%c\0X9%d]3[3

)END

If that isnt force follow and the cueball is overspinning, please let me know. This shot is to be shot with a level cue, no masse or anything like that. I dont mean to offend, I just want to know if this justifies force follow. I can think of other force follow shots that I can use for justification if needed.

Thanks, FWIW, JMO

 

[Bob Jewett]

There is a part of the train wheel that is below the level of the track. That part is moving south for a small portion of its travel....

Or, you could say that the bottom of the flange of the wheel is always moving backwards relative to the track. (And, if the flange is an inch wide, and the wheel has a radius of 20 inches, and the train is going 60, the bottom of the flange is moving backwards at 3MPH.)

The point of this is that if you can apply overspin (and I think you can, a little), the bottom of the cue ball will actually be moving back towards you for a little while until the cue ball achieves normal rolling.

Most pool players never hit the cue ball high enough to get overspin. Many don't even hit it high enough on follow shots to begin with smooth rolling.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... If that isnt force follow and the cueball is overspinning, please let me know. This shot is to be shot with a level cue, no masse or anything like that. ...

I'd just call this a follow shot. The cue ball probably doesn't have anything beyond smooth rolling until it hits the object ball. When it hits the object ball, it loses all its speed but still has a lot of follow, and is clearly "overspinning" which happens with all full hits with follow.

Carom players use this "double the rail" action all the time and it can be achieved on good equipment without much force at all. At snooker, they call something similar the "banana shot."

Personally, I use the term "force follow" not for power follow shots, but for follow shots where the cue ball is close to the object ball. Doesn't anyone have Shamos' Illustrated Encyclopedia handy?

 

[Bob Jewett]

... Other "pro" teaching videos I've watched claim that you achieve overspin on a force follow shot...

I think they may be confused (as some here seem to be) by the fact that when a cue ball with follow (for example smooth rolling) hits an object ball nearly full, the cue ball has little speed and a lot of follow. The cue ball then has overspin (bottom of the ball actually moving backwards, like the flange of a rail wheel), until smooth rolling sets in again. If the cue ball has some sideways motion, maybe due to a cut angle other than zero, the path of the cue ball will be curved until smooth rolling sets in. (That curved path is a parabola, for the math fanatics.)

The remarkable loops and plunges that you can see on some power follow shots are probably not due to overspin of the cue ball before it strikes the object ball. Nor is such overspin necessary to get the effects.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... why is it the harder you hit a cut shot with follow, the longer cueball stays on the tangent line, acting like center ball? ..

Actually, it doesn't. The cue ball leaves the tangent line as soon as it leaves the object ball, if you bother to watch closely -- the path is curved to begin with. What does happen when you hit harder, is that the curve becomes broader, which to the careless observer might look it's straight at the start. Byrne and Alciatore have good explanations of this if you want to learn more.

There is one exception to this and that's when you hit the shot so hard that the cue ball is in the air for the first part of its path off the object ball. While it's in the air, it travels in a straight line when viewed from above, but from the side, it's a parabola again.

 

[Cornerman]

OK GENIUSES, ANSWER THIS QUESTION.

If you can't get overspin with top spin, why is it the harder you hit a cut shot with follow, the longer cueball stays on the tangent line, acting like center ball? BECAUSE THE CUEBALL IS SLIDING WITH TOPSPIN. WHEN THE TOPSPIN CATCHES AND THE CUEBALL LOOPS FORWARD OFF THE TANGENT LINE, THE CUEBALL STOPS SLIDING AND BEGINS ROLLING. COMMON SENSE. WHAT IN THE HELL ARE YOU ARGUING ABOUT?

Why do you think anyone is arguing? Nobody is arguing.

Common sense, unfortunately, isn't common.

What you're describing isn't what is being asked. Take away the object ball. The question is, can you make the cueball overspin by just hitting the cueball (no object ball involved)?

Fred

 

[Cornerman]

bob, answer me this, what cue does Byrne shoot with?

I'm not Bob, but...

Robert Byrne has shot with a Ray Schuler with a billiard shaft. I assume he still does.

Fred

 

[Cornerman]

If that isnt force follow

For me, force follow is simple higher speed follow at a cut angle and speed such the cueball will go significantly forward. It's still follow, but the look is... fancier? The opposite of force follow is power draw. Power draw is still draw, but to a higher speed and with such and angle/speed that the cueball witll come mostly backwards. It more describes the look and path, not the actual shot.

and the cueball is overspinning, please let me know.

Yes, it's overspinning, but that's not what Byrne was talking about. He was only talking about the cue tip hitting the cueball (not the cueball hitting and object ball) and whether you could make the cueball overspin, like so many cartoon rabbits.

Fred