Total Offense. A game without safeties.

midnightpulp

midnightpulp

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Was reading an older thread that was talking about how there's not enough risk taking and creative shotmaking (because of the fact that missing one ball can mean losing the match) in professional pool these days. Even CJ dislikes the conservative play in rotation games and wants to see a return to 2 shot pushout to encourage more risk taking.

I don't necessarily agree, and actually like the fact that one miss can sometimes lead to losing the match, since it makes every shot, no matter how difficult, highly important, and one mistake could potentially be your last in any match.

But for those you want nothing but offense, I came up with this game (feel free to add your suggestions):

Total Offense

- Gameplay is structured like bowling, with players alternating frames, so you don't directly play an opponent during a rack (thus no safeties). After a miss, your frame is over. The balls are re-racked and your opponent begins their frame. After (insert number of frames here. I like 5 frames per player to start out) the game ends and the player with the highest score wins. In the event of a tie, we go to sudden death one frame per player shootout.

- Scoring. I still haven't totally figured out how to score regular shots. Don't want to make them illegal, since the game will be unwatchable and just another version of Honolulu, but I want to encourage hard, creative shots, and make it where players can't coast shooting regular shots and score 15 every rack.

I'm torn between limiting the number of regular shots to like 5 or 7 per frame at one point each or awarding no points per each regular shot but awarding 5 points for a cleared rack. I think the latter works better for the metagame and can potentially create more drama and close finishes (i.e., does player A in his 10th frame go for the sure 5 points that will put him up a tentative 6 points, or does he go for the higher scoring shot(s) during the rack and try to close the door on his opponent?).

Here's how I broke down scoring for other shots:

- All shots must be called.

- Bank shot: 1 point per rail (single rail bank is worth 1 point, two rail bank 2 points, etc).

- Kick shot. Scored the same as a bank shot.

- Carom/Billiard: 2 points

- Combination: 2 points

- Jump shot (jump cues are not allowed to make this shot more difficult): 2 points.

- Scoring is stackable, so if you make a jump bank shot, you get 3 points. Jump shot + combination = 4 points, etc.

Game begins with a standard break, but all balls made are spotted (which will make an easy run out for 5 points a bit more difficult). Your turn ends when you miss or scratch. No scoring penalty for scratching.

In any event, I think this will be a fun game.

If anyone has the time, post some 5 frame scores. Be interesting to see how the game plays out in the real.
 
If you want an offense based game contact Victor Maduro. I think he's member here. He lives in Panama City, Panama. He came up with a game 20+ years ago that should be the standard. I would post the rules here but I won't without speaking to him first. I'm going to email him now and ask him to post them to this thread.
 
I read this post with interest because, as a snooker player primarily, I have the view that safeties are played far too often at the rank amateur level making the game far too tedious for my liking. But I was muddled in the details of your proposal so I was confused, and I know too well that players of cue sports do not at all take well to new ideas. Better to tweak something tried and true than to propose something radically different.
I put a spin on an offense oriented version of the game which can actually be very easily applied to ANY pool game if one were to accept and adopt one of the differing rules of Snooker into your pool game. For any unfamiliar, there is a rule of Snooker which states that after a player commits a foul, the incoming player can put the fouling player back in to play the shot if he doesn't like the resultant lie of the table.
So I call my version "All Out Offense" and the concept is very simple...that rule applies at every change of the striker. If your opponent plays a safety, whether by accident or design, as the incoming player, if you don't like what you see, simply say, "You can take it" and he is obligated to take the shot that he had left for you. Makes safety play completely irrelevant without changing the basic game. There is absolutely no point in attempting to play a safety. Instead, if a difficult pot is available, you have to decide if you have enough faith in yourself to make the pot, or pass it to your opponent and hope that he misses it and leaves you something better. You can play "half safes" to your strengths and your opponent's weaknesses. For instance, if you are good at three rail shots, you can purposely leave unpottable balls in position for a three railer knowing your opponent will likely pass on it and leave the shot to you.
Completely different feel to it, but very easy to understand. And it can be applied to about any game....All Out Offense Snooker, All Out Offense 9 Ball, All Out Offense Straight Pool, whatever. Maybe not One Pocket; I don't know much about that at all.
 
midnightpulp said:
Was reading an older thread that was talking about how there's not enough risk taking and creative shotmaking (because of the fact that missing one ball can mean losing the match) in professional pool these days. Even CJ dislikes the conservative play in rotation games and wants to see a return to 2 shot pushout to encourage more risk taking.

I don't necessarily agree, and actually like the fact that one miss can sometimes lead to losing the match, since it makes every shot, no matter how difficult, highly important, and one mistake could potentially be your last in any match.

But for those you want nothing but offense, I came up with this game (feel free to add your suggestions):

Total Offense

- Gameplay is structured like bowling, with players alternating frames, so you don't directly play an opponent during a rack (thus no safeties). After a miss, your frame is over. The balls are re-racked and your opponent begins their frame. After (insert number of frames here. I like 5 frames per player to start out) the game ends and the player with the highest score wins. In the event of a tie, we go to sudden death one frame per player shootout.

- Scoring. I still haven't totally figured out how to score regular shots. Don't want to make them illegal, since the game will be unwatchable and just another version of Honolulu, but I want to encourage hard, creative shots, and make it where players can't coast shooting regular shots and score 15 every rack.

I'm torn between limiting the number of regular shots to like 5 or 7 per frame at one point each or awarding no points per each regular shot but awarding 5 points for a cleared rack. I think the latter works better for the metagame and can potentially create more drama and close finishes (i.e., does player A in his 10th frame go for the sure 5 points that will put him up a tentative 6 points, or does he go for the higher scoring shot(s) during the rack and try to close the door on his opponent?).

Here's how I broke down scoring for other shots:

- All shots must be called.

- Bank shot: 1 point per rail (single rail bank is worth 1 point, two rail bank 2 points, etc).

- Kick shot. Scored the same as a bank shot.

- Carom/Billiard: 2 points

- Combination: 2 points

- Jump shot (jump cues are not allowed to make this shot more difficult): 2 points.

- Scoring is stackable, so if you make a jump bank shot, you get 3 points. Jump shot + combination = 4 points, etc.

Game begins with a standard break, but all balls made are spotted (which will make an easy run out for 5 points a bit more difficult). Your turn ends when you miss or scratch. No scoring penalty for scratching.

In any event, I think this will be a fun game.

If anyone has the time, post some 5 frame scores. Be interesting to see how the game plays out in the real.
Click to expand...

Must've been a great thread. :wink:
 
This really got me thinking.

What if we just made it exactly like bowling:

The Game =10 Ball
Frame 1 = Rack 1
Throw 1 of 2 = Breaking and running balls until you miss. (Break and Run = Strike)
Throw 2 of 2 = You take ball and hand from where you missed and try to run out. (Getting out = Spare)
Scoring = Same as bowling. 1 ball = 1 pin. Strikes & Spares add bonus points just like bowling
Frames = 10 Frames

This would be very easy to handicap as well once an average is established.
 
midnightpulp said:
Was reading an older thread that was talking about how there's not enough risk taking and creative shotmaking (because of the fact that missing one ball can mean losing the match) in professional pool these days. Even CJ dislikes the conservative play in rotation games and wants to see a return to 2 shot pushout to encourage more risk taking.

I don't necessarily agree, and actually like the fact that one miss can sometimes lead to losing the match, since it makes every shot, no matter how difficult, highly important, and one mistake could potentially be your last in any match.

But for those you want nothing but offense, I came up with this game (feel free to add your suggestions):

Total Offense

- Gameplay is structured like bowling, with players alternating frames, so you don't directly play an opponent during a rack (thus no safeties). After a miss, your frame is over. The balls are re-racked and your opponent begins their frame. After (insert number of frames here. I like 5 frames per player to start out) the game ends and the player with the highest score wins. In the event of a tie, we go to sudden death one frame per player shootout.

- Scoring. I still haven't totally figured out how to score regular shots. Don't want to make them illegal, since the game will be unwatchable and just another version of Honolulu, but I want to encourage hard, creative shots, and make it where players can't coast shooting regular shots and score 15 every rack.

I'm torn between limiting the number of regular shots to like 5 or 7 per frame at one point each or awarding no points per each regular shot but awarding 5 points for a cleared rack. I think the latter works better for the metagame and can potentially create more drama and close finishes (i.e., does player A in his 10th frame go for the sure 5 points that will put him up a tentative 6 points, or does he go for the higher scoring shot(s) during the rack and try to close the door on his opponent?).

Here's how I broke down scoring for other shots:

- All shots must be called.

- Bank shot: 1 point per rail (single rail bank is worth 1 point, two rail bank 2 points, etc).

- Kick shot. Scored the same as a bank shot.

- Carom/Billiard: 2 points

- Combination: 2 points

- Jump shot (jump cues are not allowed to make this shot more difficult): 2 points.

- Scoring is stackable, so if you make a jump bank shot, you get 3 points. Jump shot + combination = 4 points, etc.

Game begins with a standard break, but all balls made are spotted (which will make an easy run out for 5 points a bit more difficult). Your turn ends when you miss or scratch. No scoring penalty for scratching.

In any event, I think this will be a fun game.

If anyone has the time, post some 5 frame scores. Be interesting to see how the game plays out in the real.
Click to expand...
As you know I'm very interested in developing offensive style games where we encourage the taking on of lower percentage, but more impressive shots.

The bowling type scenario ticks some boxes but also takes away a little in the sense that it doesn't have the feel that two players are competing, it starts to resemble a high run competition with lots of competitors going one after another.

One thing to consider is that the 2nd player would have a target, so would know if he needed to take on some lower percentage shots early on, or just keep it as simple as possible to surpass the previous player's total.

I assume the caroms and combos require nomination?

Sounds like it would be a fun drill or challenge format with an opponent if the rewards and limitations of shot types could find the right balance.

You'll remember I presented the 2 Ball type drill game a couple of weeks ago, which is basically straight pool where you need to make a nominated carom or combo with each pot to continue.

I made a tweak to this game by also allowing 2 rails to be contacted in addition to the pot, in order to continue the inning. Doing it this way, the first 7-8 balls are mostly made with combinations while the last 7-8 balls are predominantly 2 or more rail shots.

A few days ago I made a video of a frame of this with some annotations to assist understanding. This will provide an idea of the relative difficulty of this type of restriction and the kind of offensive shots it leads to: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3cVZFoiYeM

I have a twist for this game, such that for the last 5 balls, the player may nominate more than 2 rails, such that 3 rails earns 2 points, 4 rails 3 points and so on.

Hence, say the first player makes the first 11 balls, scoring 11 points. The opponent still has a slight chance in the rack, but he must make the last 4 balls with say 4 consecutive 4 rails shots ( 4 x 3 points), or perhaps 3 x 3 railers and a 6 railer (which might require banking 3 rails and running the CB 3 rails (3x2 + 5 = 11 for a draw).

It's a little like T20 cricket when a team is down, but if they can make a few sixes in the last over, they can steal the game. Not easy, but possible, and it would create some very exciting and almost miraculous finishes to sets. A bit like pegging out a 170 in darts when looking the loser.

Colin
 
acesinc1999 said:
I read this post with interest because, as a snooker player primarily, I have the view that safeties are played far too often at the rank amateur level making the game far too tedious for my liking. But I was muddled in the details of your proposal so I was confused, and I know too well that players of cue sports do not at all take well to new ideas. Better to tweak something tried and true than to propose something radically different.
I put a spin on an offense oriented version of the game which can actually be very easily applied to ANY pool game if one were to accept and adopt one of the differing rules of Snooker into your pool game. For any unfamiliar, there is a rule of Snooker which states that after a player commits a foul, the incoming player can put the fouling player back in to play the shot if he doesn't like the resultant lie of the table.
So I call my version "All Out Offense" and the concept is very simple...that rule applies at every change of the striker. If your opponent plays a safety, whether by accident or design, as the incoming player, if you don't like what you see, simply say, "You can take it" and he is obligated to take the shot that he had left for you. Makes safety play completely irrelevant without changing the basic game. There is absolutely no point in attempting to play a safety. Instead, if a difficult pot is available, you have to decide if you have enough faith in yourself to make the pot, or pass it to your opponent and hope that he misses it and leaves you something better. You can play "half safes" to your strengths and your opponent's weaknesses. For instance, if you are good at three rail shots, you can purposely leave unpottable balls in position for a three railer knowing your opponent will likely pass on it and leave the shot to you.
Completely different feel to it, but very easy to understand. And it can be applied to about any game....All Out Offense Snooker, All Out Offense 9 Ball, All Out Offense Straight Pool, whatever. Maybe not One Pocket; I don't know much about that at all.
Click to expand...

Good points!

Players are slow to adopt entirely new formats. This was one of the problems with Bonus Ball. It seemed like we needed entirely new sets of balls to play the game.

I actually incorporate the passing back rule on any shot I don't like in my games. It's basically the same logic as the old 2 foul rule, where a player can push to a 50/50 proposition when out of position, so they're less likely to play a safety unless they get pretty badly hooked. It doesn't work for 8-ball and 1-pocket unfortunately, but would improve rotation games.

We still face the problem that the games are too easy for the top pros once they get on a ball reasonably well. We will continue to see kosmo out after kosmo out (roll, stun, basic pattern shots [Kosmo was an exhibitionist who was famous for setting up layouts that were all stop shots]) with the occasional challenging shot but far to few to be captivated by anything resembling an exhibition shot.

For snooker, I'd definitely bring in the pass back shot, especially at intermediate level. Heck, I'd even prefer Ball In Hand to the incoming player up to the skill level where guys are making regular 50 breaks. Player's break making would improve rapidly and colors would finish on their spots a lot more often, which prepares them better for play at a higher level.

Colin
 
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It sounds interesting but it's essentially a Me vs. The Table game, rather than Me vs. You. Kind of like golf/bowling/etc where both opponents are really playing against the course instead of against each other.
 
Colin Colenso said:
Good points!

Players are slow to adopt entirely new formats. This was one of the problems with Bonus Ball. It seemed like we needed entirely new sets of balls to play the game.

I actually incorporate the passing back rule on any shot I don't like in my games. It's basically the same logic as the old 2 foul rule, where a player can push to a 50/50 proposition when out of position, so they're less likely to play a safety unless they get pretty badly hooked. It doesn't work for 8-ball and 1-pocket unfortunately, but would improve rotation games.

We still face the problem that the games are too easy for the top pros once they get on a ball reasonably well. We will continue to see kosmo out after kosmo out (roll, stun, basic pattern shots [Kosmo was an exhibitionist who was famous for setting up layouts that were all stop shots]) with the occasional challenging shot but far to few to be captivated by anything resembling an exhibition shot.

For snooker, I'd definitely bring in the pass back shot, especially at intermediate level. Heck, I'd even prefer Ball In Hand to the incoming player up to the skill level where guys are making regular 50 breaks. Player's break making would improve rapidly and colors would finish on their spots a lot more often, which prepares them better for play at a higher level.

Colin
Click to expand...

People like what they know. Getting players to switch to blackball instead of world rules, for example, is next to impossible. Most pool players cannot see beyond the end of their nose, sadly.
 
Ron Swanson said:
People like what they know. Getting players to switch to blackball instead of world rules, for example, is next to impossible. Most pool players cannot see beyond the end of their nose, sadly.
Click to expand...
Wish we'd change to blackball rules in Australia, but the masses love their blocking pockets strategy and playing for 2 holding visits.

At the highest levels both WEB and BB are pretty good offensive games compared to US rotation games. The tighter pockets, requiring banks and extractions, or precise pots down rails, make them more challenging than US table 8-ball which has nearly 90% clearance after break at the top levels. The best offensive WEBers in Oz are around the 50% mark, which is a healthy rate I think.

Blackball would encourage intermediate players to be more offensive earlier in their development, and that's good for them and the sport imho.

Colin
 
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bdorman said:
It sounds interesting but it's essentially a Me vs. The Table game, rather than Me vs. You. Kind of like golf/bowling/etc where both opponents are really playing against the course instead of against each other.
Click to expand...
Just imagine the uproar in golf if one player was allowed to hit his opponent's ball behind a tree. That's kinda how pool works, when a player has lost faith in his own ability to keep potting.

Even though golfers and bowlers are effectively playing the course or lane, their is perceived pressure from the performance of the competitor alongside, or simply on the scoreboard.

The closest we have to this type of play the table, limited defense effectiveness are the billiard (caroming and losing hazard) games, and perhaps 14.1 to a degree. Hard to safe a guy to victory who runs hundreds when the opponent struggles to get through 2 racks.
 
midnightpulp said:
Was reading an older thread that was talking about how there's not enough risk taking and creative shotmaking (because of the fact that missing one ball can mean losing the match) in professional pool these days. Even CJ dislikes the conservative play in rotation games and wants to see a return to 2 shot pushout to encourage more risk taking.

I don't necessarily agree, and actually like the fact that one miss can sometimes lead to losing the match, since it makes every shot, no matter how difficult, highly important, and one mistake could potentially be your last in any match.

But for those you want nothing but offense, I came up with this game (feel free to add your suggestions):

Total Offense

- Gameplay is structured like bowling, with players alternating frames, so you don't directly play an opponent during a rack (thus no safeties). After a miss, your frame is over. The balls are re-racked and your opponent begins their frame. After (insert number of frames here. I like 5 frames per player to start out) the game ends and the player with the highest score wins. In the event of a tie, we go to sudden death one frame per player shootout.

- Scoring. I still haven't totally figured out how to score regular shots. Don't want to make them illegal, since the game will be unwatchable and just another version of Honolulu, but I want to encourage hard, creative shots, and make it where players can't coast shooting regular shots and score 15 every rack.

I'm torn between limiting the number of regular shots to like 5 or 7 per frame at one point each or awarding no points per each regular shot but awarding 5 points for a cleared rack. I think the latter works better for the metagame and can potentially create more drama and close finishes (i.e., does player A in his 10th frame go for the sure 5 points that will put him up a tentative 6 points, or does he go for the higher scoring shot(s) during the rack and try to close the door on his opponent?).

Here's how I broke down scoring for other shots:

- All shots must be called.

- Bank shot: 1 point per rail (single rail bank is worth 1 point, two rail bank 2 points, etc).

- Kick shot. Scored the same as a bank shot.

- Carom/Billiard: 2 points

- Combination: 2 points

- Jump shot (jump cues are not allowed to make this shot more difficult): 2 points.

- Scoring is stackable, so if you make a jump bank shot, you get 3 points. Jump shot + combination = 4 points, etc.

Game begins with a standard break, but all balls made are spotted (which will make an easy run out for 5 points a bit more difficult). Your turn ends when you miss or scratch. No scoring penalty for scratching.

In any event, I think this will be a fun game.

If anyone has the time, post some 5 frame scores. Be interesting to see how the game plays out in the real.
Click to expand...

Food for through,
9/10 ball games
player "A" breaks
after the break, player "B" has the option of taking the first shot or passing it back to player "A"
ball in hand anywhere on the table after every miss
winner breaks, loser racks
longer races 9, 11, 15 ?????
 
There have been total offense games around since before I was born....
....RING NINE BALL....PAYBALL....etc

Personally, I would not like tactics to disappear from the game....
...some of Efren's great escapes are not boring to me.
 
Equal offense is a great practice game, I play it a lot. What the op is describing is something else.
 
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If there's anything that will save this sport, I can guarantee that making 9-ball more like bowling is not it... That's a fact.
 
I watched a 7 ball match where they were allowed one safe. I believe they could call safe just in case they missed. If they made the safe shot they kept shooting. I think they could incorporate something like that for most games pros play. I also like 10 ball rules. You screw up and the opposing player can make you shoot.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
 
Game on

Jdale said:
Food for through,
9/10 ball games
player "A" breaks
after the break, player "B" has the option of taking the first shot or passing it back to player "A"
ball in hand anywhere on the table after every miss
winner breaks, loser racks
longer races 9, 11, 15 ?????
Click to expand...


I LOVE This Idea.....Is this something you just made up or is it a actual game...?
I want to Play some 9-Ball with these Rules...ASAP and I'm Betting I will Really
Enjoy it...

I Will Let You Know How I Make Out....

Thanks.....Paul
 
Jdale said:
Food for through,
9/10 ball games
player "A" breaks
after the break, player "B" has the option of taking the first shot or passing it back to player "A"
ball in hand anywhere on the table after every miss
winner breaks, loser racks
longer races 9, 11, 15 ?????
Click to expand...

I once made seven balls on the break....
...with these rules, if I did this and left the 9-ball over one hole and the 5-ball over another
.....and now my opponent gets the advantage of my best break ever by taking over my
turn and shooting two hangers for the win....he can also clean up the mess...
...'cause I'm gonna puke...:barf:

So now, being the competitive player that I am, my next break, I'm gonna slow roll it...
...whe he tells me to shoot, I'm gonna hand him the cue ball...if he doesn't get out, I get
ball-in- hand.

Do you really think this is an improvement?
:rolleyes:
 
pt109 said:
There have been total offense games around since before I was born....
....RING NINE BALL....PAYBALL....etc

Personally, I would not like tactics to disappear from the game....
...some of Efren's great escapes are not boring to me.
Click to expand...
The out of snooker kicks are probably the best highlight shots in rotation pool, because the players shoot at 20% options. In potting play, they'll only play sub 50% difficulty shots when the shot offers a reasonable shot-to-nothing type safety backup.

So yes, these are often the best shots we get to see in rotation events and I'm sure game formats that contain them will survive. But I'd rather see exceptional offensive potting shots than miraculous, with a handfull of luck, escapes. Such offensive shots have been almost entirely removed from consideration in current game formats.


btw: Is payball like Shell Out, a snooker game where you get money per point scored with multiple players?

Colin
 
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