Tournament conflictions

cueball1950

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have been trying to figure out why the new tour stops that are held at the Hilton Hotels here in the states scheduled a tournament to start on February 20th when they knew there was going to be a Joss tour event being held at the Turning Stone Casino on the 19th and 20th of february. The Joss schedule has been out for almost a year. I am hoping that someone in the know can tell me why this was done. Was it done to hurt the Joss event. Hell, pittsburgh is not really that far from the Casino. Are they hoping to get some of the players from the Joss event that did not make it to Saturday. I have never heard of a tournament starting on a sunday other than having a players meeting on the sunday before. Does anybody have any idea what is going on here. Since it is a UPA SANCTIONED event, did they schedule it like this knowing about the Joss event. I do not believe in my heart that doing it this way will help either venue. I do know this, the Joss tour event had a ceiling of 64 players with a waiting list and the casino allowed Mike Zuglan to open it up to 96 players which he did and he filled it in 1 day. And he still has a waiting list. What can i say...come 1 come all. it is a free tournament for the spectators to watch..............................................mike
 
Originally, Jim Dawson (who runs the Hilton Hotel events) was going to reschedule his event so that players would be able to play in both of them. Unfortunately, my understanding is that the sanctioning body for the Hilton event stepped in and vetoed the date changes.

Now I am hearing that they might be allowing players coming from the Joss event to have their matches a little later to give them time to make it to both events.

Mike
 
Hi Mike,

I asked that question here the same day the Hilton schedule was first published. Mike called me immediately asking why. My guess is, by starting Sunday, the event will be over before the next weekends business. Another would be to help fill a partially empty hotel that caters to vacationers on weekends. I did the math. If they get a certain number of players, it is a financial wash with the "added" money. They gain the bar and food business. I would guess they take a pecentage of any vendors sales during the event as well.

I'm thrilled there is another place to play. Having said that, we will be pissed if JAM's dates for the March/April event is correct. That will conflict directly with the Classic Billiards Joss Stop. If they are as posted at the UPA site, we will help draw players for the following weekend. Regardless, the people promoting the Hilton events must have seen the Joss, UPA and Planet Pool schedules. If so, they are either nieve or foolish. :confused:
 
AzHousePro said:
Originally, Jim Dawson (who runs the Hilton Hotel events) was going to reschedule his event so that players would be able to play in both of them. Unfortunately, my understanding is that the sanctioning body for the Hilton event stepped in and vetoed the date changes.

Now I am hearing that they might be allowing players coming from the Joss event to have their matches a little later to give them time to make it to both events.

Mike


But isn't the sanctioning body the UPA. IF so, why would they do such a thing.................mike
 
Yes, the sanctioning body is the UPA and I have no idea why they would do such a thing.

Mike

cueball1950 said:
But isn't the sanctioning body the UPA. IF so, why would they do such a thing.................mike
 
Mike,

Of all the regional tours out there, the Joss Northeast seems to be the pre-eminent one. In the past several years, the UPA has scheduled several events directly opposite a Joss event. Last year an event was scheduled in New York City during the same week as the Joss finals in Maine. When Mike Z refused to change the date of his event, the UPA relented and moved theirs. This is stupid. Mike's schedule comes out in August for the following year. This is being done intentionally to cause pain to the Joss Tour (IMO). The UPA has done many foolish things over the past few years. Manlyshot and I debated the merits of the UPA at a feverish pace for months last year. Even I am beginning to wonder if they are becoming a detriment to the game I love. This is stupid!
 
The UPA-sanctioned events, Bicycle in Los Angeles and World Summit of Pool in NYC, have also occurred on the same dates as other high-profile tournaments, i.e., JOB's Music City Open in Nashville and the 8-Ball World Championship in UAE; 2 years in a row, I might add.

Having said that, I do know that sometimes scheduling at some venues must be done many months ahead of time, and the organizers can only pick dates which are suitable to and offered by the hosting site.

The UPA's mission as the "governing body of men's professional pool" is multi-faceted. It is a shame in these times of low payouts in a sport which sorely needs non-pool-related sponsors that various entities cannot work together with the sole goal of promoting the sport.

IMO, pool requires name-brand recognition. If the current lot of so-called "professional players" continues to diminish, the powers-that-be running these pool organizations are going to end up with a lot of Chiefs and no Indians. Some pros will leave the sport, never to return, out of economic necessity. Others will remain independents, for a variety of reasons. Pocket billiards will continue to remain at the bottom of the heap in the United States.

It's time for a change (IMO).

JAM
 
cardiac kid said:
Mike,

Of all the regional tours out there, the Joss Northeast seems to be the pre-eminent one. In the past several years, the UPA has scheduled several events directly opposite a Joss event. Last year an event was scheduled in New York City during the same week as the Joss finals in Maine. When Mike Z refused to change the date of his event, the UPA relented and moved theirs. This is stupid. Mike's schedule comes out in August for the following year. This is being done intentionally to cause pain to the Joss Tour (IMO). The UPA has done many foolish things over the past few years. Manlyshot and I debated the merits of the UPA at a feverish pace for months last year. Even I am beginning to wonder if they are becoming a detriment to the game I love. This is stupid!


Lyn, i agree with what you said. from what i have been told, even the promoter is pissed. I personally think it is being done in retaliation for Mike Zuglan not letting the UPA sanction some of the Joss Tour's major tournaments. So in theory i would think that the reasoning is this. "either let us in and sanction your events or we will compete with you". Also from what Mike (azhousepro) has stated someone wanted to change the dates and the UPA said no. So what does that tell you......................mike

ps...see you and jam and keith at the casino.....
 
But I agree with what Mike Zuglan has said about sanctioning his events with the UPA. Part of the sanctioning requirements are seeding UPA players and stuff like that. Why should he do something like that and basically punish his regular players by sanctioning the event with the UPA. The regulars come out and play every week, but special treatment has to be given to UPA players because he sanctions a big event with them? Not to mention the fact that Mike has no problem at all filling his events. What would he gain by sanctioning with the UPA?

Mike
 
AzHousePro said:
But I agree with what Mike Zuglan has said about sanctioning his events with the UPA. Part of the sanctioning requirements are seeding UPA players and stuff like that. Why should he do something like that and basically punish his regular players by sanctioning the event with the UPA. The regulars come out and play every week, but special treatment has to be given to UPA players because he sanctions a big event with them? Not to mention the fact that Mike has no problem at all filling his events. What would he gain by sanctioning with the UPA?

Mike


Mike, thank you, my point exactly. there is nothing in it for mike z. and mike z asked the upa this question. what have i got to gain by letting you sanction an event. there answer was nothing. charlie tried to force mike z into letting him sanction an event by stating that he would hold the capital city classic at the same time. and from what i have ben told, the promoter of the capital city classic never gave charlie permission to make that statement. this after he had allegdly stepped down as head of the upa. rumor also has it that the upa told him to shut up that he was making waves that the upa did not need.The upa has in the past scheduled events the same time as mike and in the same general area..ny/maine.,, so who are the upa hurting. the fans. cuz now fans cannot attend both events. and soon the fans will take their revenge by not attending upa sanctioned events at all. I hope that the upa heads can get their heads out of their asses and see that they are only hurting pool by doing it this way. at the open i had the pleasure of meeting frank alvarez and talked with him for awhile and what a nice person he is. Just to bad he has to be ASSociated with the upa.................mike
 
If I were the one and only god of pool, I would act somewhat the same as the UPA BOD. Attempting to forcing small regional tours to join up or else works well if your attempting to control the entire game. It won't work under current conditions. We've seen the problems created by the manufacturers, room owners, press and retailers BCA casting off the players and leagues BCA. Only the players suffer. If it were sold to a lesser man than Mark Griffin, we'd really be in trouble.

Each of the major league sports has a minor league system to develope new players. This is the vision the UPA should be using. Mike Zuglan's Joss Northeast Tour is a great tour but, only one of many. The tour covers only Greater New England. Thanks to Mike's hard work, the generosity of the Tour sponsors, the room owners and the players, this tour works!

The UPA should set up some type of player developement/qualifying system with the smaller tours like the Joss to feed them quality new players. Instead, they appear to try to compete with them. Who the hell is in charge? Why do they have no vision? Or, what is their vision? I'm sitting here looking at my MPBA membership card. I earned it! Why would the MPBA want me to represent the game of pool at its highest level without knowing how I play? It was relevant in 1992. It is still relevant today!
 
One thing I like about the Joss Northeast 9-Ball Tour, run by veteran New Yorker Mike Zuglan, is that there is a LEVEL PLAYING FIELD in all of his events, bar none. Whether you're Efren Reyes or JAM, the rules are adhered to and there is no favoritism, and there are no seeds and byes given to the more proficient players because of the sole reason of them being Joss Tour regulars.

Mike Zuglan was faced with pool politics when he was competing on a regular basis in his younger years, very much like what's going on today. It's kind of sad to see history repeating itself when it comes to pool. Instead of bitching about the current state of affairs and fighting a no-win battle, he and Joss Cues put their heads together and created the Joss Northeast 9-Ball Tour. This is the best bang for your buck when it comes to competition. Whether you're a C player or a topnotch gunslinger, all players are treated equal. Mike Zuglan doesn't have one political bone in his body. The Joss Tour season finales are open to all. However, you must play in at least three Joss tournaments to pay the normal entry fee. All others must pay $350 entry fee as opposed to the $100 entry fee, which is exactly what Alex Pagulayan, Charlie Bryant, and Rodney Morris did last year. Kid Delicious took the year-end honors, which began his roll to the top.

For the life of me, I cannot figure out why ANY tournament with 60-plus players has to be dragged out over 5 and 6 days, when the Joss Tour has the same amount of players and can be carried out to fruition within a 2-day weekend. The expenses of attending such events that are longer than 2 days are overwhelming not only to the pool player, but to the fans and spectators alike. There are some events, like the Glass City Open, as an example, which have activities going on 24/7 during the week-long tournament, and I look forward to going to Toledo every single year, but in exchange, I am rewarded with a wonderful pool experience as a railbird spectator.

The UPA-sanctioned tournaments are seeded with the current UPA touring pros who usually end up getting a bye. In many instances, they only need to play one match to get in the money. ALL OTHERS start from the bottom of the charts, incur more expenses relating to the tournament, while some of the UPA players can show up at a later date.

In the end, pool players only want to play pool. With the low payouts and extremely high expenses related to competitions, it is very sad that some professional organizations continue to create barriers within the sport. This is a trend that needs to stop.

Mike Davis is one of the UPA Touring Pros who will be seeded at the NAOT Pittsburgh Hilton tournament. So, for him to arrive late on Sunday, it may not be a problem. For other players, though, it would seem impossible for their matches to be held up until late Sunday evening (IMO). The weather conditions in that part of the country in the month of February are uncertain, and if a snow blizzard or any other of Mother Nature's little curve balls occurs, it's going to be a hellish drive from Syracuse. Then, to literally roll out of the car and play your first match, that is if you haven't already been forfeited, is too difficult. Been there, done that!

I'm hoping the Pittsburgh tournament is a success. Diana Hoppe will be on site providing coverage for those of us unable to make it. I think the promoter Jim Dawson was grateful to have the UPA step up to the plate and provide assistance for his first two events, which is why he accepted UPA sanctioning. Scott Smith is a great tournament director, and in the past, I do know he's made logistical changes to tournament scheduling to accommodate players. Anybody who wishes to go to Pittsburgh from Syracuse should give him a call. Contact the promoter Jim Dawson, and he will give you Scott's phone number.

JAM
 
cardiac kid said:
Of all the regional tours out there, the Joss Northeast seems to be the pre-eminent one. In the past several years, the UPA has scheduled several events directly opposite a Joss event. Last year an event was scheduled in New York City during the same week as the Joss finals in Maine. When Mike Z refused to change the date of his event, the UPA relented and moved theirs. This is stupid. Mike's schedule comes out in August for the following year. This is being done intentionally to cause pain to the Joss Tour (IMO). The UPA has done many foolish things over the past few years. Manlyshot and I debated the merits of the UPA at a feverish pace for months last year. Even I am beginning to wonder if they are becoming a detriment to the game I love. This is stupid!

It sure is stupid. I'm good friends with the promoter of the Capital City Classic tournament. His son is actually a very good player, and I've seen him grow up competing in juniors events when he was a youngster, and today, this young guy is a successful family man and still comes out to compete from time to time.

When the UPA posted the dates for the Capital City Classic tournament, in DIRECT CONFLICT with Mike Zuglan's Joss Tour tournament, the promoter of the Capital City Classic received a call from Mike Zuglan asking what was up with that. The promoter had not scheduled any dates and didn't know a thing about it. The conflicting dates were posted on the UPA website without the knowledge of the Capital City Classic promoter and soon after were removed. It was a blatant attempt (IMO) by the UPA to thwart the success of the Joss Tour.

When the last Capital City Classic event occurred in Philadelphia, the promoter accepted UPA sanctioning, in hopes to work together with the current professional pool organization. As I was making preparations to attend this event, I was told by the UPA that Keith could not compete in this event unless he was a member of the UPA because he was considered a "pro."

The promoter of Capital City Classic likes Keith McCready and wanted him there. Since Keith is now a legal resident of the District of Columbia, he got in on a "local waiver." When we arrived in Philadelphia and signed up, Charlie Williams was on site and told Keith that he needed to see his identification stating District of Columbia residency in order for him to play. It was insulting in the manner that it was carried out, but Keith, a guy who has been playing pool for 40 years, longer than Charlie Williams has been alive, retrieved his ID and complied with Charlie's request. I guess if we didn't have Keith's ID on us, we would have lost all of our expense monies associated with this trip.

Allen Hopkins has a pro event at the Super Billiards Expo which is UPA sanctioned. Last year, I expressed my concerns to Allen about Keith, a non-UPA member, getting in his event. Allen stated that ALL POOL PLAYERS ARE WELCOME and he did not want anybody to be prohibited to competing. I like his style, much like Mike Zuglan's, in that he creates a platform in which all players are treated equal.

Whether the UPA knows it or not, they are currently self-imploding by creating so many barriers and stop signs for not only promoters, but for players like Keith who only want to play pool. I've spoken with Frankie Alvarez, the UPA representative, on many occasions, and he has bent over backwards to try to make the players content, to include Keith. However, Frankie is not the ruling authority and is only the PR man for the UPA, and a very good one I might add.

As far as I'm concerned, the UPA ain't the only fish in the sea, and it is a sad day in the history of pool every single time they attempt to create barriers and obstacles for the sole purpose of ruining an independent promoter's event. It hurts the sport in general, and their actions go against the very mission they claim to want to attain (IMO).

It's not only the UPA, though. With the multiplicity of league formations, new and old, some vendors are now refusing to provide service at certain events. The lady players are being "instructed" by the WPBA to not attend non-WPBA-sanctioned events, like the DCC. It has only been recently that the payouts for the lady professionals are up to par with the men. For decades, they paled by comparison. The majority of so-called "professional pool players" are struggling to keep up with the tournament trail because of the huge expenses which far outweigh any potential for earnings. Many, like Danny Harriman, have become disgusted for a variety of personal reasons and leave the sport entirely.

The current lot of professional players is diminishing before our eyes. Until pool organizations, print media, and industry members work together with a common goal to promote the sport, instead of creating competitive barriers, pool will continue to be a recreational game enjoyed by social shooters. To date, the leagues is where the money's at. There aren't too many folks like willing to fork out $1,500 to $2,000 to attend week-long events as a spectator, unless is a once-a-year pool experience much like the U.S. Open or the Derby City Classic. Professional pool continues to suffer, and professional pool players, much like the dinosaur, will eventually become extinct.

JMHO, FWIW!

JAM
 
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Jen,

There is so much drivel posted at AZ. When I see one of your posts, regardless of the subject of the thread, I read it. Its nice to have access to your thoughts on a subject. We don't always agree but, you see the real game, not the "Camelot" some of us see through those damn rose colored glasses.

I just want to play pool. I don't want to be told to wear a red shirt or live in a specific area or I can't play. Someday I may be lucky enough to experience playing at the top level of the game, even for one day. How jealous I am of Keith's talent!
 
JAM said:
When the last Capital City Classic event occurred in Philadelphia, the promoter accepted UPA sanctioning, in hopes to work together with the current professional pool organization.
JAM, although I wouldn't consider myself a good friend of this promoter, I am aquainted with him and I have had a few conversations with him.

Sometime after the Philadelphia Capital City Classic, I spoke with him and he told me that Charlie Williams and the UPA threatened to hold a competing tournament, if they didn't accept the UPA sanctioning.
If the UPA held a competing event, no UPA members would be allowed to play in the CCC, therefore the promoter was forced to accept the UPA sanctioning.
 
Here's the scoop!

I just got off the phone with Mike Zuglan, the Joss Northeast 9-Ball Tour tournament director, and he stated that it is IMPOSSIBLE for the Joss tournament to be over by 1:00 p.m. on Sunday, February 20th. He has spoken with Jim Dawson, the promoter for the NAOT tourney in Pittsburgh, and he said that Jim is "trying to do the best he can" to accommodate players who desire to compete in both events.

The goal is to play all day Saturday, the first day of the tournament, until there are 12 to 16 players remaining, who will return on Sunday, February 20th. Actual tournament play will begin at 9:00 a.m. on Saturday.

The players meeting at the Turning Stone Casino will commence sharply at 9:30 p.m. on Friday, February 18th. HOWEVER, the sign-in period will be from 6:00 to 8:00 p.m. Players are not required to be at the players meeting if they have signed in beforehand. There is a poker tournament, which is filling up fast, at 8:00 p.m., this same night.

The hotel room rate is $90. Normally, the rates for the Turning Stone Casino range from $149 per night on up to over $500, depending on which lodging facility you are staying at on this site. Fortunately, the $90 room rate is for rooms located in the main facility where the tournament is occurring.

It is not mandatory to stay at the Turning Stone Casino if you are a local player, and spectators can come and watch the 96 players battling it out for FREE! :D

Check out the Turning Stone Casino website by clicking this link -- $15,000-added Joss Tournament at Turning Stone Casino in Verona, New York -- and then click on the 9-Ball Tournament banner located on this page for further details. It's a 3-day weekend due to President's Day holiday, and the place is going to be packed! I can't wait! :)

This will be a no-smoking venue. There is smoking allowed in the casino. There are non-smoking sections in the casino as well. There is no alcohol served on the premises. You are allowed to bring your own and it is acceptable to drink the beverage of your choice while enjoying the casino activities. ;)

I am bringing my laptop, and if I can hook up in our hotel room with no problems, I'll provide some updates for the inquiring minds back home. ;)

JAM
 
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We will also have online brackets during this one.

Mike

JAM said:
I am bringing my laptop, and if I can hook up in our hotel room with no problems, I'll provide some updates for the inquiring minds back home. ;)

JAM
 
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