Tournament Ideas

[Banks]

I've been floating a few ideas for tournaments and haven't been able to decide on any in particular. Once implemented, my thoughts may change based on the results, but for now a couple of examples..

1) $5 entry, $200 added - possibly $10 entry?

2) Free entry, $200 added, race to 1 both sides, chance to respond in kind to break-n-runs

Did a tournament the past couple of weeks that was $5 entry, house match, additional $40 added. Had 19 players, so $95 in entries with $135 added total. Did 9b, race to 3 both sides, started at about 7:45 and finished about 12:15(will be moving up the start time). Using 4 Diamond boxes, could scale it down for 2 tables or even 1, depending on the location.

As much as I dislike bars charging green fees, it appears that people will jump at the chance to play in places that do barely more than add them back to the pot as "added money". Still considering that, but it's at the bottom of the list.

Any input? Other ideas to consider? Besides just pocketing the money and saying thanks, of course.

Edit: I almost forgot.. expecting an eventual 32-player field for 4 tables. Any thoughts on playing a split tournament at different locations and having a final at one of them or a continuation the next day? Trying to avoid that long of an event, but if it works.

Edit Edit: Don't suppose anybody would be interested in advertising chalk, cues, etc.

 

[pt109]

First of all, Banks, great to see you posting.

As a player, I never minded paying green fees...it's the real world.
Catering to people who want something for nothing is not a good business plan.
I like $15 entry and $5 green fee....gives them something to shoot at...
....and pay deep...create more winners like the PGA does.

 

[Banks]

First of all, Banks, great to see you posting.

As a player, I never minded paying green fees...it's the real world.
Catering to people who want something for nothing is not a good business plan.
I like $15 entry and $5 green fee....gives them something to shoot at...
....and pay deep...create more winners like the PGA does.

Thanks, PT.

I understand where you're coming from on the free thing. I've tried to stop some places from offering free pool and such regularly, since many times your return customers are the ones that don't pay for anything.

My thought behind the free entry tournament is that it could easily fill a board and the lower players(low APA, etc) would be all about it if it meant they didn't have to donate, plus they'd get a little free pool out of the deal. In this case, it's about putting people in the locations and around the tables.

The paying deep is something that I would like to do. In the last tournament, it was 80/60/40/20/10/10 and 10 additional for top woman, so 6 places out of 19. I would like to pay like the PGA, but first things first.. creating a successful tournament ring that businesses want to be a part of. I've already got one signed up, possibly a second. Once things are put into place, more can be recycled into the tournaments. My plan is also to have at least one each month at each location, depending on the general area covered. It would be close to having a nightly $200 added or more tournament.

Since I own all of the tables, charging a green fee, but claiming to add money just doesn't seem cool. But, like I mentioned before, people still seem to jump at the chance to play for their own money. For events like our regional, where your green fees cover unlimited playing time, I'm all for it. I've talked to others and they see it the same as you do, so it may go that way. Or I may just charge a seasonal fee to participate in the free tournaments.

 

[Banks]

Added $160 tonight to $110 in buyins for 22 people. I can do this all week long with enough participation. If you're in the northwest or west coast, hit me up. Elsewhere, we can figure something out.

Sincerely,
The guy that put tables in that first bar

 

[Tramp Steamer]

Tournaments are great, whether it's pool, competitive shooting, golf, or a good old fashion King of the Castle Hold Out Match. The problem however, at least around my parts, is the "added" money. Finding someone to actually add the "added" money is damn near impossible.
Entry fees, green fees, and Calcutta's, were never a problem, but, coming up with that person, or company, who would pony up that "added" purse money, has been. :smile:

 

[Poolplaya9]

I know you are hoping to sell advertising for these tournaments, I am assuming banners and such. What other ways are you hoping to benefit from doing all this? How much of this is supposed to be for the bar's benefit, and how much is for your benefit? The answers to these questions make a huge difference as far as what format you should use and how you should run the tournaments and would change what our suggestions might be.

 

[Banks]

I know you are hoping to sell advertising for these tournaments, I am assuming banners and such. What other ways are you hoping to benefit from doing all this? How much of this is supposed to be for the bar's benefit, and how much is for your benefit? The answers to these questions make a huge difference as far as what format you should use and how you should run the tournaments and would change what our suggestions might be.

Nah, not just advertising for the tournaments, but advertising in general. The tournaments are just one more way to get the name out and people in. I benefit by other places wanting what i provide(hoping volunteers can run them at some point). The bar benefits by getting in more people during a slow night and recognition. As far as the format, i want it to be a pool player's tournament, which is why i make it known that i want feedback, whether good or bad.

We had 22 last night and i think at least half or more were apa 7s and above. I also want to have something for less skilled players, but one thing at a time.

Edit: Tramp, I'm trying to get to the point that the locations don't even add their own.

 

[Drop The Rock]

Nah, not just advertising for the tournaments, but advertising in general. The tournaments are just one more way to get the name out and people in. I benefit by other places wanting what i provide(hoping volunteers can run them at some point). The bar benefits by getting in more people during a slow night and recognition. As far as the format, i want it to be a pool player's tournament, which is why i make it known that i want feedback, whether good or bad.

We had 22 last night and i think at least half or more were apa 7s and above. I also want to have something for less skilled players, but one thing at a time.

Edit: Tramp, I'm trying to get to the point that the locations don't even add their own.

I run a Thursday 9 ball tournament. We have anywhere between 16 to 32 players on any given night. Entry fee is $10 and we add $100. We also have a break pot that is really high up there.

I recommend sticking to the same venue as it will encourage the tournament to grow. You also need to learn to walk before you run so I'd stick with a $10-$20 entree and $100 added. Talk to a bar or pool hall and tell then you are starting a tournament, their alcohol sales will go up and the place will get busier become more popular etc. There is a good chance that they will add $100. Now, if you get to 32 players, I encourage you to try and get access to 5-6 tables. I have had tournaments run from 8 pm to 2 am plenty of times.

When it comes to pay outs, we only play 3 places. The reason being is that there is a fine line between paying out to multiple spots and not paying top 2 enough to both playing.

If you can start a Calcutta or break-pot you have some serious potential to bring more people in.

 

[Banks]

I run a Thursday 9 ball tournament. We have anywhere between 16 to 32 players on any given night. Entry fee is $10 and we add $100. We also have a break pot that is really high up there.

I recommend sticking to the same venue as it will encourage the tournament to grow. You also need to learn to walk before you run so I'd stick with a $10-$20 entree and $100 added. Talk to a bar or pool hall and tell then you are starting a tournament, their alcohol sales will go up and the place will get busier become more popular etc. There is a good chance that they will add $100. Now, if you get to 32 players, I encourage you to try and get access to 5-6 tables. I have had tournaments run from 8 pm to 2 am plenty of times.

When it comes to pay outs, we only play 3 places. The reason being is that there is a fine line between paying out to multiple spots and not paying top 2 enough to both playing.

If you can start a Calcutta or break-pot you have some serious potential to bring more people in.

Thanks for the advice.

I've got access to multiple places, so I could possibly run a larger tournament if I figure out the logistics(some is already done). So far, no place has any more than 4 tables, though.

Last night's tournament did take a bit longer - I'm guessing it's the same that usually holds things up, one or two players or matches going longer than they should. Started around 7:40, finished around 1:30, I think, culminating in a split after the first dipping. Payout was 80/80/50/30/10/10 and 10 more to high woman. Considering shortening the loser's side races to 2 for the first couple of rounds and will be moving the start time up to 7.

The $10+ buy-in would be nice. Almost all tournaments around here are in the neighborhood of $5. I've got to talk to somebody about the calcutta thing, as there are some tricky rules for that here in OR(or so I was told). The break pot is good, but that's another thing to deal with, so I've put that to the side for now.

 

[shortstroker]

There is a tournament that runs up here that is a lot of fun i hear.

As I understand it, it is a 16 week qualifier playing BCA 8 ball, $10.00 a week, paying the top 2 places a portion of the weeks entry (16 people) and also awarding the top two places entry into the final 32 tournament. There is added money for the "final 32" somewhere around $2000, and also a Calcutta.

I believe the weekly starts at 2:00p with 16 entrants and is double elimination. Race to 5 winners, race to 3 losers. It usually takes about 8 hours to play on 3 tables. The final however is a two day affair.

From what i hear the weekly is a blast and there is some stiff competition, but the two day final 32 is some of the most fun players have had at a smaller tournament.

 

[Banks]

There is a tournament that runs up here that is a lot of fun i hear.

As I understand it, it is a 16 week qualifier playing BCA 8 ball, $10.00 a week, paying the top 2 places a portion of the weeks entry (16 people) and also awarding the top two places entry into the final 32 tournament. There is added money for the "final 32" somewhere around $2000, and also a Calcutta.

I believe the weekly starts at 2:00p with 16 entrants and is double elimination. Race to 5 winners, race to 3 losers. It usually takes about 8 hours to play on 3 tables. The final however is a two day affair.

From what i hear the weekly is a blast and there is some stiff competition, but the two day final 32 is some of the most fun players have had at a smaller tournament.

I've been trying to figure out if/how to do something similar. Good to know that it's going on and is successful. Using up to 10 locations, with anywhere from 1-4 Diamond tables, quite a few players could get involved. It would be a big deal if I could make it a BCA qualifying event, too - that also goes for running a bunch of weeklies.

 

[Poolplaya9]

Nah, not just advertising for the tournaments, but advertising in general. The tournaments are just one more way to get the name out and people in.

That is what I meant. Essentially you hope to sell advertising to whoever, lets say Predator cues and the local dealership for example, and advertise the dealership and Predator at your tournaments by putting up their banners, putting their names on the tournaments flyers, etc. Or maybe I am still misunderstanding what you hope to do (please correct me if so)...

If that is the case, it seems the bars will most benefit by having the most people possible, especially those who tend to drink and spend the most money, and having them staying there as long as possible. You will most benefit by having both the most bars possible involved, and the most people possible at each tournament (because these two things are most appealing to advertisers). So to most help both sides you want a format that will get as many people as possible who stay as long as possible and spend as much as possible because that gives you the people numbers, the bar the revenue, and will also entice new bars to get involved (because they want the increases revenue too) which in turn helps you.

That being the case, stick to low entry fees. Forget $20, and even $10 is probably pushing it. $5-8 is probably best. Low entry brings the most players. Most good players will still play low entry fee events, but many lesser players will not play the little local tournaments with the higher entry fees, and $10 starts to be considered a "higher entry fee" to lesser players (their entry is literally a donation and they know it and they aren't going to pay much for the privilege of getting killed in a tournament). The more recreational type players that lower entry fees events help to bring in also tend to spend the most money and be the bigger drinkers. Let's face it, in general, the better that players are, the less money they tend to spend.

Added money is always a draw as well. I would suggest if it is a $5 entry then $75 or maybe $100 added is probably about right. Less than that and it may not entice as many players to come out, and more than that and it isn't as appealing to the bar in the long run because it offsets too much of whatever additional revenue the bar receives from having the additional bodies in the door. Remember, that is 90% of the reason a bar would want a tournament to begin with because of the extra revenue it generates on those nights, so if they are just giving it all right back to the players it isn't so appealing or beneficial to them.

Forget shorts races like races to 1. It doesn't keep people there long enough. You want the tournament ending nearer to closing time so the bar sees good additional revenue.

Double elimination is best. The lesser players are more inclined to donate and play when they know they get to play at least two matches so you get more bodies, and the lesser players usually spend more too. Plus this keeps the lesser players there longer spending the money because at worst they will go two and out instead of one and out.

If you have to speed things up somewhere, speed them up in the second half of the tourney, not the first half. You want to keep the most players possible there as long as possible, and everybody is there in the beginning. You might do this by having much longer winners side matches than loser side matches, or by reducing the race lengths on both sides once you get down to say 8 players left who are probably the better players who don't spend much anyway. Not saying you should necessarily do these things, just options that exist that most help the bar (which in turn most helps you) if you have to cut down the time somewhere.

Forget two day events for bars. Too many people just aren't willing to give up two days for a tournament and it will pull small numbers. The exception is high entry fee regional type events held only on occasion.

Have some kind of a break pot. There are a number of different formats you can use, many of which have been discussed here. This tends to help draw some players too.

Without knowing how many tables a place is working with, it is hard to be much more specific about suggesting an exact format.

 

[Banks]

That is what I meant. Essentially you hope to sell advertising to whoever, lets say Predator cues and the local dealership for example, and advertise the dealership and Predator at your tournaments by putting up their banners, putting their names on the tournaments flyers, etc. Or maybe I am still misunderstanding what you hope to do (please correct me if so)...

If that is the case, it seems the bars will most benefit by having the most people possible, especially those who tend to drink and spend the most money, and having them staying there as long as possible. You will most benefit by having both the most bars possible involved, and the most people possible at each tournament (because these two things are most appealing to advertisers). So to most help both sides you want a format that will get as many people as possible who stay as long as possible and spend as much as possible because that gives you the people numbers, the bar the revenue, and will also entice new bars to get involved (because they want the increases revenue too) which in turn helps you.

That being the case, stick to low entry fees. Forget $20, and even $10 is probably pushing it. $5-8 is probably best. Low entry brings the most players. Most good players will still play low entry fee events, but many lesser players will not play the little local tournaments with the higher entry fees, and $10 starts to be considered a "higher entry fee" to lesser players (their entry is literally a donation and they know it and they aren't going to pay much for the privilege of getting killed in a tournament). The more recreational type players that lower entry fees events help to bring in also tend to spend the most money and be the bigger drinkers. Let's face it, in general, the better that players are, the less money they tend to spend.

Added money is always a draw as well. I would suggest if it is a $5 entry then $75 or maybe $100 added is probably about right. Less than that and it may not entice as many players to come out, and more than that and it isn't as appealing to the bar in the long run because it offsets too much of whatever additional revenue the bar receives from having the additional bodies in the door. Remember, that is 90% of the reason a bar would want a tournament to begin with because of the extra revenue it generates on those nights, so if they are just giving it all right back to the players it isn't so appealing or beneficial to them.

Forget shorts races like races to 1. It doesn't keep people there long enough. You want the tournament ending nearer to closing time so the bar sees good additional revenue.

Double elimination is best. The lesser players are more inclined to donate and play when they know they get to play at least two matches so you get more bodies, and the lesser players usually spend more too. Plus this keeps the lesser players there longer spending the money because at worst they will go two and out instead of one and out.

If you have to speed things up somewhere, speed them up in the second half of the tourney, not the first half. You want to keep the most players possible there as long as possible, and everybody is there in the beginning. You might do this by having much longer winners side matches than loser side matches, or by reducing the race lengths on both sides once you get down to say 8 players left who are probably the better players who don't spend much anyway. Not saying you should necessarily do these things, just options that exist that most help the bar (which in turn most helps you) if you have to cut down the time somewhere.

Forget two day events for bars. Too many people just aren't willing to give up two days for a tournament and it will pull small numbers. The exception is high entry fee regional type events held only on occasion.

Have some kind of a break pot. There are a number of different formats you can use, many of which have been discussed here. This tends to help draw some players too.

Without knowing how many tables a place is working with, it is hard to be much more specific about suggesting an exact format.

There's a little misunderstanding, but that is a small portion of it.

I've recently reconsidered the idea that you have to get people to stay as long as possible. At some point, their expenses reach a general level where they're taking up more room than their purchases should account for. For example.. from 6-9, people will be buying drinks and food, being excited and milling around, creating a buzz for the place.

Now, if those same people are forced to stay longer than they care for, they probably won't be drinking as much or as quickly as they were earlier and are now taking up space/tables for those that could be cycled into the bar.

I try to run the BCA and tournaments to get people in, let them have their fun and get the job done, then those that can stay are free to do so. People come in, because they know it won't be all night. They're followed by those that show up a little later and replace their spots at the table or bar - fresh customers. If they have to stay too late, it loses its appeal to both the players and the later customers.

I'm partial on the double-elim..

First, I don't believe there's any major sport that has a double-elim tournament - not golf, nba, etc. Maybe soccer, but theirs is a round-robin format, so it's just a different beast. Secondly, a single-elim tournament means that races could be extended and there is no second-chance for those that play poorly.

I want to create something for both the better and weaker players. A higher $$ entry results in higher payouts and more people pay attention to that. The balance is finding a way to change the formats and payouts so that higher entries appeal more to the better players, while the lower entries do not.

At the moment, I've got locations with anywhere from 1-4 tables. There's one location that does, iirc, a double-elim, single 9b game, low($2?) entry, added money, split 50c/rack, tournament that regularly fills at 16.. using the one table that they have. My trial-run tournament was up to 22 people this last week, with only word-of-mouth and a little Facebook presence(4 tables, race to 3 9b both sides).

Without eventually moving to a higher entry fee, I feel that pool will remain in the duldrums. Just need to find some kind of support mechanism to back it up as it grows.

Thought of something else today, but (idea is not possible) ... will try figuring something else out.

 

[accustatsfan]

Congratulations for doing your part to promote pool. I don't know how to do it and respect those who can. Good luck in your endeavor

Color me crazy, but unless the bar doesn't own the tables (in which case player's fees apply) I think they should open the tables for practice and play. The whole point of them allowing you to host your tournament in most cases has nothing to do with the host owner liking pool it has to do with them hoping the tournament will bring new customers and monies into their place. If its a pool hall where table play is a big part of the owner's revenue green fees should apply.

One place I played had a $20 entry, but for the entry you got into the tournament and unlimited practice time the entire time the tournament was played regardless if you were still in or not.

Depends on your crowd, but I think the $5-8 entry fee as another poster suggested is about right.

 

[Banks]

Congratulations for doing your part to promote pool. I don't know how to do it and respect those who can. Good luck in your endeavor

Color me crazy, but unless the bar doesn't own the tables (in which case player's fees apply) I think they should open the tables for practice and play. The whole point of them allowing you to host your tournament in most cases has nothing to do with the host owner liking pool it has to do with them hoping the tournament will bring new customers and monies into their place. If its a pool hall where table play is a big part of the owner's revenue green fees should apply.

One place I played had a $20 entry, but for the entry you got into the tournament and unlimited practice time the entire time the tournament was played regardless if you were still in or not.

Depends on your crowd, but I think the $5-8 entry fee as another poster suggested is about right.

Thank you, ASF.

The bars do not own the tables. A special relationship has been developed with the individual locations and I do my part to promote pool and I do not charge any additional fees for use of the tables for leagues or tournaments. I allow tables to be opened for practice prior to leagues and tournaments and, in some cases, allow use of a table or two for those participating after their events are over.

Portland is starving for something more than a $5 or staggered entry and I am determined to find a way to make it not only possible, but profitable for all involved. As I mentioned in my offer of advertising opportunities - the more locations and pool players that are involved, the more valuable the advertising becomes. Between customers that frequent a pool bar, pool leagues and more popular pool tournaments, there could be quite a.. pool.. of pool customers. :thumbup:

 

[Poolmanis]

We have only small weekly competitions here but one best part at those is we have JACKPOT.
we have small entry fee(10€) and give everything back. so 8€ to prize money and 2€ to JACKPOT.
Every competition we draw one lucky winner from entry list and he get one try run out one rack 9-ball. IF HE FAILS that money goes for next week JACKPOT. And if he manages pull it of he get all money from Jackpot.
It is really highlight of tournament of every week. Lot of dogging there

 

[accustatsfan]

@banks might be a case of build it and hope they come. Hope you pull it off

 

[Banks]

We have only small weekly competitions here but one best part at those is we have JACKPOT.
we have small entry fee(10€) and give everything back. so 8€ to prize money and 2€ to JACKPOT.
Every competition we draw one lucky winner from entry list and he get one try run out one rack 9-ball. IF HE FAILS that money goes for next week JACKPOT. And if he manages pull it of he get all money from Jackpot.
It is really highlight of tournament of every week. Lot of dogging there

Hmm.. maybe I'll add some kind of break pot like that jackpot. You have to run the whole rack? Does early 9 count?

@banks might be a case of build it and hope they come. Hope you pull it off

Thanks, I'm trying.. still getting more referrals, so something's going right.

 

[Poolplaya9]

Hmm.. maybe I'll add some kind of break pot like that jackpot. You have to run the whole rack? Does early 9 count?

Any way you want to do it counts, just make sure you make everyone aware of your rules who is entered or you are guaranteed to have issues. There are tons of different ways you can do a break pot contest. As I mentioned in my post earlier in the thread, many different variations have been discussed on here over the years that you may want to peruse for ideas.

Some spot the money ball if it goes early, some count it. Some pay a set amount per ball you make while trying to run out, and then the whole pot if you run out. Some only pay out say 75% of the pot so there is still "seed money" left in there for your future break pots and it doesn't start at zero (I highly suggest this). Some only pay per ball if you stop before missing (once you miss before running out you get nothing). Some pay for every ball you made even if you do end up missing at some point.

Some just do it as you only win if you break in the 9 or 10 with a 9 ball or 10 ball rack and you don't have to run anything at all, you either snap in the 9 or 10 on the break or you don't. Some do it the same way where you only win the whole pot (or your set percentage of it) if they snap in the 9 or 10 on the break, but they also get paid a set amount per ball made on the break if they didn't scratch/foul.

Some draw one player for the chance at the pot that week, some draw three players. Some include the break pot fee as part of the mandatory entry fee, such as charging $11 for the tournament and $10 of it goes into the tourney prize fund and $1 of it goes into the break pot, so everyone in the tourney is entered into the break pot. Some sell tickets for $1 each, and only those that buy tickets can be drawn for the break pot and the more you buy the more chance you have to be drawn that week. You can do both, have $1 for the break pot built into the entry fee so everyone is entered in break pot contest and still sell tickets on the side for $1 for those that want more tickets to increase their chance of getting drawn (I highly prefer either tickets alone, or have it built into the entry and sell tickets also--it builds the pot faster and you have more control over your chances of getting drawn).

As recently discussed in a thread on here, some use an eight ball rack to break with, and then the 11-15 are removed from the table and you have to run out the remaining 10 ball game left on the table, or something along those lines, I forgot (you will have to look it up). There are literally hundreds of variations in the way break pot contests are done and can be done and there isn't any accepted standard other than whatever you do, make sure the rules are very clear to everyone (I would have all your break pot rules posted up somewhere where everybody can see it and the amount in the break pot needs to always be kept up to date and posted somewhere as well).

 

[Banks]

Any way you want to do it counts, just make sure you make everyone aware of your rules who is entered or you are guaranteed to have issues. There are tons of different ways you can do a break pot contest. As I mentioned in my post earlier in the thread, many different variations have been discussed on here over the years that you may want to peruse for ideas.

Some spot the money ball if it goes early, some count it. Some pay a set amount per ball you make while trying to run out, and then the whole pot if you run out. Some only pay out say 75% of the pot so there is still "seed money" left in there for your future break pots and it doesn't start at zero (I highly suggest this). Some only pay per ball if you stop before missing (once you miss before running out you get nothing). Some pay for every ball you made even if you do end up missing at some point.

Some just do it as you only win if you break in the 9 or 10 with a 9 ball or 10 ball rack and you don't have to run anything at all, you either snap in the 9 or 10 on the break or you don't. Some do it the same way where you only win the whole pot (or your set percentage of it) if they snap in the 9 or 10 on the break, but they also get paid a set amount per ball made on the break if they didn't scratch/foul.

Some draw one player for the chance at the pot that week, some draw three players. Some include the break pot fee as part of the mandatory entry fee, such as charging $11 for the tournament and $10 of it goes into the tourney prize fund and $1 of it goes into the break pot, so everyone in the tourney is entered into the break pot. Some sell tickets for $1 each, and only those that buy tickets can be drawn for the break pot and the more you buy the more chance you have to be drawn that week. You can do both, have $1 for the break pot built into the entry fee so everyone is entered in break pot contest and still sell tickets on the side for $1 for those that want more tickets to increase their chance of getting drawn (I highly prefer either tickets alone, or have it built into the entry and sell tickets also--it builds the pot faster and you have more control over your chances of getting drawn).

As recently discussed in a thread on here, some use an eight ball rack to break with, and then the 11-15 are removed from the table and you have to run out the remaining 10 ball game left on the table, or something along those lines, I forgot (you will have to look it up). There are literally hundreds of variations in the way break pot contests are done and can be done and there isn't any accepted standard other than whatever you do, make sure the rules are very clear to everyone (I would have all your break pot rules posted up somewhere where everybody can see it and the amount in the break pot needs to always be kept up to date and posted somewhere as well).

I played in a 10b tournament a few weeks ago and got drawn. Broke dry, of course.

I'm thinking about maybe just have a drawing for a prize. While the break pot does sound good, it also sounds like a like to keep on top with. Though, maybe no more than getting pool players organized for a tournament to begin with.

Still working on getting more money added to the pot and making sure the tournament doesn't run long. This will probably be something to deal with later on when I get more tournaments going - having the break pot carry over to each one.