Tournaments in Levels

Bigtruck

Bigtruck

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The concept of levels used in the $50.00 9Ball tournament in Waco, TX was, and is,to give mid-level players a chance to compete amongst themselves without having to get through pro level players to do it. Giving them an opportunity to feel the pressure of a hot seat match and/or the finals.

For the most part it has been successful. We have had numerous players that have won or been runner-up that have gone on to compete with success in the "Open" events such as the highly successful Fast Eddies 9Ball Tour.

I believe pool needs more events that are in levels (Beginner, intermediate, semi pro, professional). It has been my experience that, for example, weekly tournaments that have $5-10 entries and have semi-pro & pro level players showing up every time for "spending money" have slowly lost attendance. I love to watch and even compete against these top level players, but if I never have the chance to win while I'm learning it's discouraging. I believe that top level players that constantly attend these low level event are hurting pool.

It is my opinion that events in levels is the key to growing the sport. Handicapped events do not work. It turns into a "whine fest" with everyone hustling the tournament director for a lower ranking. With levels based on actual track record there is no hustling.

I am very interested to hear from other tournament directors and others involved in the sport on this subject. Pool is a great sport with a huge following. We should be able to create events that parallel other sports.


Ray
 
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Bigtruck said:
The concept of levels used in the $50.00 9Ball tournament in Waco, TX was, and is,to give mid-level players a chance to compete amongst themselves without having to get through pro level players to do it. Giving them an opportunity to feel the pressure of a hot seat match and/or the finals.

For the most part it has been successful. We have had numerous players that have won or been runner-up that have gone on to compete with success in the "Open" events such as the highly successful Fast Eddies 9Ball Tour.

I believe pool needs more events that are in levels (Beginner, intermediate, semi pro, professional). It has been my experience that, for example, weekly tournaments that have $5-10 entries and have semi-pro & pro level players showing up every time for "spending money" have slowly lost attendance. I love to watch and even compete against these top level players, but if I never have the chance to win while I?m learning it?s discouraging. I believe that top level players that constantly attend these low level event are hurting pool.

It is my opinion that events in levels is the key to growing the sport. Handicapped events do not work. It turns into a "whine fest" with everyone hustling the tournament director for a lower ranking. With levels based on actual track record there is no hustling.

I am very interested to hear from other tournament directors and others involved in the sport on this subject. Pool is a great sport with a huge following. We should be able to create events that parallel other sports.


Ray
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I think you need to be careful with tiered events. New York City's Tri-State Tour is one of the country's longest running tours and has all but completely shifted its focus on the beginner-intermediate levels. As a result, lower-rank players will only show up in large numbers when higher ranked players are not permitted hence the tour responds by having more events for lower ranked players. Well, it's not long before overall turn-out diminishes for the lower ranks AND what's more, the higher rank players feel completely neglected.

The bottom line is, your higher rank players are the ones that have been playing the longest and are most likely to continue playing in your tour. You don't want to exclude them. Having tiered events is good but you should schedule them like treats. Few and far between.
 
Spoken like a top tiered player. JK :) But it may be that way in NYC, but in many parts of the country small tournaments are going to the wayside because of the same people winning them every week. It gets kinda old...and dont give me that crap about practice more and get better and all of that...some people have to work for a living...some people have family...some people are social players. I think tiered tournaments are great...but Jude makes a good point, you must have open tournaments as well.
 
Let me start by saying that, for me, if all the events in my area were Open events I would play every one.

That said, more and more business owners are looking to improve their bottom line and it is not being met to their demands by the upper echelon players. The smaller tournament numbers related to higher entry fees and the lowered probability of a lower handicap player winning has noticeably reduced player attendance. Give that many higher handicapped players focus on their matches to the extent they do less and less money is directed at the bar, hence making the profitability for Open events almost nil if not a loss given money added to attract those players.

From a bar owners perspective I understand you must go where the money is. It is their business and livelihood after all. There are many more B and A events (low handicap) in the area and even a fair number of AA events. There are, however, only 3 or 4 AAA, 2 SP, and 1 Open event scheduled through the major tour. We are fortunate that we have a new room opening soon that will be bringing the Canadian 9 Ball Tour to Ottawa as well as one other Open event.

As a result, a local "tour", the ABO, chaired by AZ's own Luc Comtois, will be running full pin this year. That event is Open, but with stiff handicaps which discourages the Pro's from entering as that winning is not an option. This event routinely draws 50+ players of all levels.

As a non-lower handicapped player I notice the opportunities to play are diminishing and as a result there are less and less upper handicap players hanging around the pool rooms, thus, action is very hard to come by.

In closing, I understand that you go to where the money is, but the higher handicapped players are really paying the price insofar as there really isn't much around here to play and if you want to get a tournament in you need to travel between 1 1/2 to 4 hourse away...minimum.

Just my 2 cents.
 
bomber said:
Spoken like a top tiered player. JK :) But it may be that way in NYC, but in many parts of the country small tournaments are going to the wayside because of the same people winning them every week. It gets kinda old...and dont give me that crap about practice more and get better and all of that...some people have to work for a living...some people have family...some people are social players. I think tiered tournaments are great...but Jude makes a good point, you must have open tournaments as well.
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When someone says they would rather not play in an event that featured the best, they're telling me they have no interest in getting any better at this game. If they have no interest in getting better, why do you want to invest any time in them?

The problem I have with tiered events is that then, it's ONLY about money. I mean, nobody is going to watch and find out who is the best of the horrible pool players. They're not going to commend great play. If he plays well, they're going to complain! They're going to complain because they want to get paid, too!

It may seem important - getting paid. However, when all is said and done. When you get a chance to look back on your fondest moments, they're not about money. They're about playing the champion and not backing down. It's about playing your best when your best was needed. Anyone who is hesitant to put themselves in situations where they're going to be challenged like this shouldn't bother competing. I mean, $15 a week to play against a better player is a ridiculously small price to pay. In my book, we have a word for people like that - starts with a p.
 
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Complicated...

PoolSponge said:
I understand that you go to where the money is, but the higher handicapped players are really paying the price insofar as there really isn't much around here to play and if you want to get a tournament in you need to travel between 1 1/2 to 4 hourse away...minimum.
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I'm in Texas, everything is 1 1/2 to 7 hours away! Pool is clearly evolving in this area. We are seeing more & more players competing. Many lower level players have made new commitments to their game. Many of the tournament directors in the southwest have been working together to keep all levels going steady. I believe this is a key element.

Ray
 
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Jude,

Im not speaking for me...i am speaking for the numerous people who have left all the local tournaments I have been playing in for years and going and doing something else. They always say "This is stupid, there is no way I can win." And, realistically, they can't. Not everyone lives and dies for the game of people...actually...most people, even the ones in the pool hall a lot, dont. I sure dont...i have a lot of other things going on in my life such as my family, my friends, my job, etc... However, there SHOULD be tournaments for medium ranged players...especially if the top notched players want a pool room to go. Its the medium and low level players that keep this game alive...not the top notch players.
 
Jude.....

Jude Rosenstock said:
When someone says they would rather not play in an event that featured the best, they're telling me they have no interest in getting any better at this game. If they have no interest in getting better, why do you want to invest any time in them?

I mean, $15 a week to play against a better player is a ridiculously small price to pay. In my book, we have a word for people like that - starts with a p.
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Why have little league,Jr High Ball, High School, College, Semi Pro & then Pro? Most sports have levels so players can develop and compete. It works. True some players go Pro right out of high school, but it's the exception. If College kids had to compete with NFL,NBA etc. most either would never try or quit. Are they P's. Of course not.

Ray
 
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Bigtruck said:
Why have little league,Jr High Ball, High School, College, Semi Pro & then Pro? Most sports have levels so players can develop and compete. It works. True some players go Pro right out of high school, but it's the exception. If College kids had to compete with NFL,NBA etc. most either would never try or quit. Are they P's. Of course not.

Ray
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Ray, the way I see Jude's point works well with yours...I think Jude is saying that by having more and more of the low handicap events it would be, by crossing it with your point, like having 200 little league games, 175 Jr high, 150 high school, 125 college, 50 semi pro, and 5 pro games a year. Where is the inspiration? Where is the opportunity to learn from the best, or at least those better than you? Where is the beauty of watching the game be played as it is supposed to be for a crowd of knowledgeable players so sit and enjoy? Where is the incentive for pro's to be pro's and the money to keep them doing it? Why would a low handicapper want to advance knowing that they are killing their tournaments by improving their handicap?

I am not saying there shouldn't be separate events, just not 20:1 against Open events.
 
Bigtruck said:
Why have little league,Jr High Ball, High School, College, Semi Pro & then Pro? Most sports have levels so players can develop and compete. It works. True some players go Pro right out of high school, but it's the exception. If College kids had to compete with NFL,NBA etc. most either would never try or quit. Are they P's. Of course not.

Ray
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Having age-tiers is one thing. Having a talent-cap is another. I'm sorry but I think talent-caps are counter-productive on the whole. From my experiences, the vast majority of these lower-tiered players quit playing pool within 3 years. It's not like lower-tiered players lack venues. There are leagues all over the place that provide sufficient competition. I'm sorry but I cannot agree with the idea of replacing open events with tiered events. I've never felt that way and never will.
 
Am I in a pool hot spot?

Neil said:
Think about it. Pick any 'normal' room. ( Have to exclude the few action hotspots of course). The majority of people are the so-called bangers. Then you have the skill levels go up, but the quantity of people in each higher group is less and less. Now look at the top players in most rooms. There are what, maybe 3 or 4? Boy, tht makes for a heck of a tournament!

Now, some say, "the players don't make us any money". Well, I have to agree- to a point. They make less money for the room ONLY because there are so few of them. On a per head basis, they have spent far more in the room than the lesser skilled players have. That is why they became better players.

So what reward do the better players get for having spent all that time and money in the rooms? They get told they can't play in the tournaments! So why the heck did they spend the money to get better????

Can anybody figure out why there are so few upper level players?? hmmmm...
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Am I in a pool "hot spot" or am I helping to build one? The latter I think.
We have more & more upper level players. The upper levels players definitely make the rooms money. People come out to watch, many have their entourage that follow them. Beginners and mid-level players want to go and learn from the top players. All of them are spending money. I think it takes a combination of levels to work. There needs to be events for everyone.

Ray
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
When someone says they would rather not play in an event that featured the best, they're telling me they have no interest in getting any better at this game. If they have no interest in getting better, why do you want to invest any time in them?
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Sorry, but I have to disagree with that statement.

Just because you're not willing to donate your funds to someone who's going to just WHIP UP on you doesn't mean you have no interest in getting better.

I've got a strong interest in becoming a better player - but I know my limits. I play in tournaments with folks who are better shots than I am, all the time - but not exponentially better. Better enough that their level is a level I feel I can get to, with time and practice, better enough that I can learn somethings from them while they beat me. But not SO much better that the outcome of our match is pre-determined.
 
Me too..

Jude Rosenstock said:
I'm sorry but I cannot agree with the idea of replacing open events with tiered events. I've never felt that way and never will.
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I agree! Replacing Open events with tierd events would be a mistake.

Ray
 
ScottW said:
Sorry, but I have to disagree with that statement.

Just because you're not willing to donate your funds to someone who's going to just WHIP UP on you doesn't mean you have no interest in getting better.

I've got a strong interest in becoming a better player - but I know my limits. I play in tournaments with folks who are better shots than I am, all the time - but not exponentially better. Better enough that their level is a level I feel I can get to, with time and practice, better enough that I can learn somethings from them while they beat me. But not SO much better that the outcome of our match is pre-determined.
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Scott, if it's about money there are things that can be done. Open events can still have tiered entry-fees. However, if it's losing you don't like then there are two ways to cure it. You can either get better or you can ban better players. I think banning ANYONE especially with the current state of pool is wrong. I just do. I think it's bad for the better players, bad for the game, bad in the spirit of competition.

There are other ways you can make it competitive - Shorter races can change EVERYTHING. Make it a race to 4 on winners' side and 2 on losers' side and you'll see a different winner each week. You can even place the better players on the same side of the chart to assure a weaker player makes it to the finals. There are MANY things that can be done but banning is wrong.
 
Comments

This is a difficult subject, and it depends what part of the country you are in, and how dominant leagues are for the area. Before leagues, people followed the gamblers, they wanted to watch big money games.

Tournaments were of interest, but not as much as big money gambling. Most of the best tournaments were in cities with a million people or more.

The better one gets, the more the focus is on competition, whether money is a sideline or not. Lower level players are mostly for entertainment and to try to win at something.

Burke's steakhouse only had 1 bar box in the back room with booths around it on 3 sides, but it was 'The Money Table' in town. Burke's opened at 4 pm and stayed open till 6 am the next morning every night. Papa Burke would get all the bar people after the bars closed at 2 am for breakfast,and to watch the money games. Around 7 or 8 pm the table would start getting fairly regular challengers on the table. I have seen 30 sets of quarters on the table.

The winner would name the stakes, and if you didn't like them, you pulled your quarters and just watched. None of this, I just want to play for free
because you didn't 'have the table'. When it went to $20 or $50 a game, you could challenge for that, but no less.

If no big action was going on, and 2 players matched up for $100 or more a set, they were given consideration, and the table was reserved for them to play. Around 10 pm, things got busy every night with players matching.
Lots of road players came through, many shot pro level or just below a little. Greg Stevens came in, played Buddy Hall there some. Every single road player went to Burke's Steakhouse first before any other place in town for action. If your money game was less than other better players bigger game, you were expected to render the table within a reasonable time frame. It was called 'respect', for the player, and for the game.

The Gambling in town was like a killer action flick that hit town. Tournaments was like a week long play that was going to be in town.

In the history of sports though, it has been necessary to determine levels of play, and hold competitions based on each level. Some are by age, some are by talent level.

Shooters here, and Southrock hold tournaments for lower and middle ranked players, maybe 2-3 times a year. Shooters has there annual
'Amateur 8 ball event' for 5's and below, handicapped. But, they let 6's in every year to fill it up to 64. The same problems exist for handicapped tournaments whether you have it for only certain levels or not. The 5's, and 6's they let in become the top players and inherit the problems and complaints. Most don't want to progress, they only want to be better for their handicap, which I call the 'darkhorse syndrome'. They want to be a 3 or 4, but beat all other 3 or 4's, and most of the 5's, and sometimes a 6.

I think there should be handicapping, but, somehow, you have to keep the incentive there to keep getting better. I don't know if I believe in 100% handicapping, but 90% is okay, and it still conveys to the lessor players that they have to improve to win.

To me, if a player doesn't have the motivation and drive to get better, they won't stay with it very long anyway, unless they developed friendships, and it is just their way of socializing.
 
Here is an idea. Opinions?

What is everyone's opinion on this concept format? I have been thinking that we all watch out for events we can play. Unfortunately many times the events are either Open, which kills participation from the lower handicap players, or handicapped by division, which kills participation from higher handicap players. So I was thinking about how we could accomodate everyone. How about this:

Tournament Format:

Entry fee:

Bronze: $20
Silver: $30
Gold: $40
Platinum: $50

Brackets:

All players are placed into their own brackets by handicap. Eg. Bronze players in bronze only. Losers fall to the B side but remain in their metal brackets. Rounds, as per below, will refer to all rounds within a given metal bracket.

Round 1: Races to 7 A side, 5 B side.
Round 2: Bronze winners play Silver winners - Race to 5
Round 2: Gold winners play Platinum winners - Race to 5
Round 3: Winners from round 2 play - race to 4
Finals: Race to 3.

The concept is that as you advance through the field of matching handicap players the races get smaller thus allowing the potential for the lower handicap players to upset a higher handicap as well as maintain a constructive pace for the event.

Breaks:

Alternating break format.

Field:

12 players per division, 60 maximum...based on table availability.

Player Payouts:

Top 8 get paid, which means the top two from every division get paid.
$1630 total prize pool.
45% to the winner.
 
PoolSponge said:
What is everyone's opinion on this concept format? I have been thinking that we all watch out for events we can play. Unfortunately many times the events are either Open, which kills participation from the lower handicap players, or handicapped by division, which kills participation from higher handicap players. So I was thinking about how we could accomodate everyone. How about this:

Tournament Format:

Entry fee:

Bronze: $20
Silver: $30
Gold: $40
Platinum: $50

Brackets:

All players are placed into their own brackets by handicap. Eg. Bronze players in bronze only. Losers fall to the B side but remain in their metal brackets. Rounds, as per below, will refer to all rounds within a given metal bracket.

Round 1: Races to 7 A side, 5 B side.
Round 2: Bronze winners play Silver winners - Race to 5
Round 2: Gold winners play Platinum winners - Race to 5
Round 3: Winners from round 2 play - race to 4
Finals: Race to 3.

The concept is that as you advance through the field of matching handicap players the races get smaller thus allowing the potential for the lower handicap players to upset a higher handicap as well as maintain a constructive pace for the event.

Breaks:

Alternating break format.

Field:

12 players per division, 60 maximum...based on table availability.

Player Payouts:

Top 8 get paid, which means the top two from every division get paid.
$1630 total prize pool.
45% to the winner.
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Looks complex. You want to keep things vague, IMO. Ideally two tiers.
 
Not really complex. I created this for our local league based tournaments so the handicap system and player segmentation is already done. Essentially it is running 4 12 player tournaments at the start. Then a final 8 player single knockout event.
 
Good Stuff!

PoolSponge said:
Not really complex. I created this for our local league based tournaments so the handicap system and player segmentation is already done. Essentially it is running 4 12 player tournaments at the start. Then a final 8 player single knockout event.
Click to expand...

Good stuff sponge! If we keep doing the same things, how can we expect different results?

So how did the local league players like it?

Ray
 
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