Thanks. I use a program called SmartDraw that's a nice compromise of powerful and easy. I often do drawings to help myself visualize and understand things.
pj
chgo
Try This Shot Ten Times
- Thread starter JoeyA
- Start date
Thanks. I use a program called SmartDraw that's a nice compromise of powerful and easy. I often do drawings to help myself visualize and understand things.
pj
chgo
Patrick Johnson said:
Pat,
With my Schmelke sneaky with the 11mm shaft and 1/4 inch ferrule and 16 inch pro taper, when I shoot the shot that JoeyA diagrammed with the degree of "parallel" that you said would result in a miss.... the way he aimed his cue is the way I aim my cue when shooting with the english he described, and sir, with my cue, and my stroke, on that shot, that object ball will go down, on most tables. If the table is very fast or very slow, it might need an adjustment, but the way it's diagrammed there, in most cases, the OB is going in the hole.
Flex
In terms of getting shape, I actually like the cueball position one diamond left of the heaspot. One tip of left english feeds the ball around at a better angle for shape.JoeyA said:
With the CB on the headspot, I hardly needed any sidespin at all, and it still brought the CB around 3-4 rails. Problem was, the side pocket came into play as the third rail.
So the making the ball and getting shape was actually easier with the CB on the headspot, since squirt didn't come into play with center high english. Having said that I only accomplished both objectives 5 out 10 tries, without much practice.When I mirror-imaged the shot --that is, the same shot shooting towards the left long rail-- I made it 6 or 7 out of 10. That made me realize that my left head postion over the cuestick causes the shot to be more direct in terms of aim.
At any rate, shots like this are excellent drills to test an individual's squirt limits, as well as alignment concerns.
Doc
Flex said:
Flex, something else that I didn't think about was the throw on the object ball. It is probably an important factor in this shot as well. Another thing is that I believe that the amount of side spin has a lot to do with how much squirt happens as well. I normally do not put the kind of side spin that is shown in Pat's excellent drawings. I seldom put more than 1/2 tip of side spin, FWIW. (probably because I fear the squirt
) I have been doing a little fishing at the POW-MIA Fishing Lodge and haven't had a chance to get back to the pool table to make some closer observations. I think the third drawing that Pat drew is a good depiction as far as the path of the cue ball is concerned. We may be aiming by feel and may think the aiming path is parallel to the path of the cue ball.
Anyway, I am going to pay a little more attention to what I am doing. It's getting so now (with all of this knowledge) that I am beginning to wonder how I have ever made a ball.
It is far better to learn that what you are doing is not what you thought you were doing than to remain in the dark in pompous, ignorant, successful bliss. I try to keep an open mind to learn all I can from anyone.
JoeyA
Flex said:
I doubt it - I'm guessing you think you see that but actually don't. If you do actually see that it's because swerve is exactly cancelling squirt for you at that distance/speed/tip offset/butt elevation/table conditions. There's no such thing as parallel english except for the rare instance where all those things come together for a particular shot.
pj
chgo
So the lessons are working. Won't be long you'll be ready for me.
pj
chgo
this is a great thread, best one in along time, soon as I'm able to get out of bed and play i'm gonna work on this shot, i did play for 5 minutes yesterday-but it hurt so bad I didnt attempt this. thanks to everyone for making this thread what it is!!!!!
fatboy
fatboy
JoeyA said:Flex, something else that I didn't think about was the throw on the object ball. It is probably an important factor in this shot as well. Another thing is that I believe that the amount of side spin has a lot to do with how much squirt happens as well. I normally do not put the kind of side spin that is shown in Pat's excellent drawings. I seldom put more than 1/2 tip of side spin, FWIW. (probably because I fear the squirt
I have been doing a little fishing at the POW-MIA Fishing Lodge and haven't had a chance to get back to the pool table to make some closer observations. I think the third drawing that Pat drew is a good depiction as far as the path of the cue ball is concerned. We may be aiming by feel and may think the aiming path is parallel to the path of the cue ball.
Anyway, I am going to pay a little more attention to what I am doing. It's getting so now (with all of this knowledge) that I am beginning to wonder how I have ever made a ball.
It is far better to learn that what you are doing is not what you thought you were doing than to remain in the dark in pompous, ignorant, successful bliss. I try to keep an open mind to learn all I can from anyone.
JoeyA
Heck yes I'm aiming and stroking by feel, especially on this kind of shot. And I assure you that I am aiming in what I perceive to be a true parallel shifting of the cue stick position, after I have made an allowance for the degree of squirt the cue will put on the cue ball at the distance of the shot, plus allowing for the degree of swerve on the cue ball due to the cloth, as well as throw on the object ball. In any case, I do my very best (most of the time
) to always aim and stroke on a plane that is truly parallel to the original line of aim. By the way, the way the cue ball is stroked can change, at least to some degree, how much squirt, swerve and probably even throw is produced. If you doubt this last statement, set up the shot to make the ball and shoot 5 with stun, five with a very smooth stroke, and 5 with an attempt to hold the tip of the cue on the cue ball for as long as you can when stroking the shot. Also try 5 with a very short bridge, say 5 inches long, then 5 with a 10 inch bridge, and 5 with a 15 inch bridge. I think you will find you get a variety of results when you introduce these variables.
Flex
Flex said:Heck yes I'm aiming and stroking by feel, especially on this kind of shot. And I assure you that I am aiming in what I perceive to be a true parallel shifting of the cue stick position, after I have made an allowance for the degree of squirt the cue will put on the cue ball at the distance of the shot, plus allowing for the degree of swerve on the cue ball due to the cloth, as well as throw on the object ball. In any case, I do my very best (most of the time
I think you will find you get a variety of results when you introduce these variables.
Flex
those are some great variables to try. Thanks for suggesting them. By the way, when you use side spin on this shot how much side spin are you putting on the cue ball with that needle of a shot?
Another thing you might do is to aim the cue ball with center ball english and place an additional object ball like shown in the picture below and you will see that the aiming line using 10:00 english and the cue ball aiming with center ball english, you would still not wind up with parallel lines. They are definitely not pivot English lines. someone else can do that...
With a 20" bridge and pivot, my cue stick might be aiming at the moon.
JoeyA
Patrick Johnson said:Here's a drawing showing what I mean about "parallel english".
From left to right, this shows what happens (1) with a centerball hit, (2) with "parallel english", but imagining that squirt doesn't exist, (3) with "parallel english" in the real world (with squirt) and (4) with squirt and with aim adjusted ("non-parallel english").
The main thing to realize from this is that there's no such thing as parallel english. If you use sidespin, you must angle the cue away from the cue ball's intended path, because the cue ball will certainly move away from (not parallel with) the cue's centerline.
The next thing to realize from this is that you have to make the same aim adjustment (image #4) no matter what method you choose. You end up with the cue at the same angle with backhand english, fronthand english, traditional english, Martian english, or any other method. If you don't end up with the cue at the same angle, you miss the shot.
pj
chgo
I don't think anyone said parallel english sent the CB on a straight path - everyone knows it doesn't. We all know people have to figure-in deflection to send the CB to the appropriate spot (even with low deflection shafts).
I think the original discussion was 1) is the same spin transfered to the CB and 2) does the cue go through the CB the same?
1) I wasn't really sure, I was guessing bhe provided more (guess)
2) I said the paths between front hand english and back hand english were different through the cue ball, you said they were identical.
I thought your pic was going to explain how the paths were the same.
I don't think a pic can show that. The logic is this:
(Using the same cue) if you want to send the cue ball in a certain direction at a certain speed with a certain kind and amount of spin, there's only one spot on the CB to hit and one angle at which to hit it. No other spot or angle will do it.
If you agree with this, then you agree that every method of squirt compensation must ultimately bring the cue to this one spot and angle. If you don't agree with this, show us a shot that can be made by hitting two different spots and/or angles.
pj
chgo
Patrick Johnson said:
I'm not sure if I do agree with that. Like I said early, that would be true if the angle of attack into the CB was the same either way, and it's not.
Let me do this--- I'll record a video at my table and try to youtube it. That way, you can critique it and say one or the other. Hopefully it can be shown on video well.
Like I said, the angle of attack lessens the more BHE you apply from the pivot point; whereas, when using front-hand english, you're hitting square into the ball. As Joe said, you can even do a combination of the two. But, I still don't believe there is one solution for every shot at the same speed (I think that's what you're saying, right? Solution=point of CB contact).
Dave
Patrick Johnson said:
It would be nice if a simple easy to use CAD program were readily available so that the perceived aiming lines and the traveling lines of the cue ball and the object balls could be easily depicted.
If Flex is aiming parallel to the cue ball's traveling path, I would love to see at least a cuetable drawing of where he is aiming at on this particular shot. Like "accelerating the cue stick through the cue ball", it is the attempt to do so that is important to the shot. The fact that it is physically impossible to accelerate the cue stick through the cue ball is a scientific aside, worthy of mental note only (as afar as competency of playing pool is concerned).
I doubt that anyone will disagree that squirt exists and when you use side spin you get some cue ball squirt no matter what else you do. If Flex is aiming parallel to the cue ball's traveling line, that is what he is seeing and it is his attempt to do so that is making the object ball.
It's nice to know what is physically happening and I'm sure as more discussion takes place, Flex, myself, you and everone else will be more comfortable with knowing what is taking place when Flex shoots his shot.
JoeyA
JoeyA said:
You're right that our perceptions don't necessarily have to match reality in order to play good pool. So if Flex thinks he sees no squirt and plays well with that perception, then maybe it's enough for him that it works. Still, it's worthwhile for others to know the details about how a shot can look squirt-free but not really be squirt-free.
For one thing, it's worth knowing that there are several variables that have to all come together just right for that to happen, and that isn't automatic or easy. Another valuable piece of info is that it's probably harder to control all those variables than to learn to adjust your aim for them. Another is that choosing speed, tip offset, butt elevation, etc. in order to aim a certain way means you're sacrificing other things, like better position.
However, I have a comment about this:
Aiming parallel doesn't work for the vast majority of shots unless the shooter finds the right harmony for all the variables, so it's aiming parallel plus harmonizing the variables that makes the object ball. This requires adjusting the variables differently each time, which means it's probably easier and more reliable for most players to adjust your aim for squirt instead.
pj
chgo
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av84fun said:
That's the way Gerry Watson refers to certain strokes in his 101 Big Pool Shots.
How it's done? I suppose one way to explain it is to try, when stroking the ball, to try to keep the tip in contact with the cue ball for as long as possible. I know there are those who will say it can't be done, that the tip remains in contact for perhaps 1/1000 th of a second, and so on, but it's one of those things that when you try to do it can yield different results than a regular stroke.
If someone doesn't want to believe it can be done, fine with me. I just know that when I try to do it, it does change the results of the shot.
How to explain that with physics? I don't know.
Flex
JoeyA said:those are some great variables to try. Thanks for suggesting them. By the way, when you use side spin on this shot how much side spin are you putting on the cue ball with that needle of a shot?
( ...)
JoeyA
For that shot, the tip of my cue is probably 1/2 of the way from the center of the cue ball to the part on the cue ball that would produce a miscue...
Some people might call that 1 1/2 tips low and 1 1/2 tips left; I just aim the tip in that lower left middle region, as I sure don't want any miscues...
Flex
JoeyA said:those are some great variables to try. Thanks for suggesting them. By the way, when you use side spin on this shot how much side spin are you putting on the cue ball with that needle of a shot?
Another thing you might do is to aim the cue ball with center ball english and place an additional object ball like shown in the picture below and you will see that the aiming line using 10:00 english and the cue ball aiming with center ball english, you would still not wind up with parallel lines. They are definitely not pivot English lines. someone else can do that...
With a 20" bridge and pivot, my cue stick might be aiming at the moon.
JoeyA
Joey,
On this shot, as the english is high left, the cue ball squirts differently, IMHO, than when shooting with low left. And the adjustments are different. In any case, I normally don't try to shoot this kind of shot any more with BHE, but try to calculate how far the cue ball is going to squirt when I really lay into it, as this shot on a slow table is a killer. With my cue, at this distance, I need to allow for about 3/4" of squirt on the cue ball, and also factor in the fact that the cue ball will probably be slightly jumping, or perhaps airborne, when it contacts the object ball. This shot is a monster on a slow table... On a fast table with normal pockets it's not so bad, and then the degree of squirt and swerve changes everything. This is not a favorite shot when the pressure is on!
The only way I'd attempt this shot in a pressure situation is if I'm totally acclimated to the table, the speed of the cloth, how the balls throw, etc. etc.
Not my cup of tea.
Flex
Flex said:
Not telling you you need to change or do this, but it is just a suggestion.
The way I set up for this shot is to aim center ball like I am going to shoot the ball into the pocket point/rail instead of the open part of the pocket...(basically a undercut)...but I have an aim point reference for the shot.
When I apply the BHE...(from that distance) I still get some extra deflection that is not compensated for and will slightly overcut the shot....
Since I slighlty overcut the shot, it goes right in the pocket...english applied.
It is basically a combination of PE aim and BHE application...Since with many PE shots this is how you actually aim...basically you aim to miss (or heavily favor one side of the pocket), but with the deflection (and resultiing over cut) the ball goes in.
Basically what I am trying to say is that I don't try and "predict" the amount the CB is going to deflect (aka: squirt)......I try and predict how far off of target I need to aim the OB....Not saying this is the correct way...but something that you can try.