Two-Foul 9 Ball

CJ Wiley said:
Jumping was always legal, just not too many people could do it well in the 80s. "Lil Earl" Strickland wasn't the first to jump, but he was the best at it. I heard about how he did it and practiced until I was nearly as good (Earl could always jump better with a Meucci).

One Foul was the tournament rules to speed up play, but they were always looked down on by the gamblers. As "One Foul" took over through TV exposure it filtered out "Shoot Out" and gambling at 9 Ball......we never saw it coming until it was too late!

One foul 9 Ball is not a good gambling game...as a matter of fact it's a terrible gambling game, but the players seem to think they have no other choice. 'Two Shot Shoot Out' must be brought back or one foul will continue to dilute the game down into nothing.

'The Game is the Teacher'
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When the top players started jumping balls, the rest of the pool world scrambled to learn how to do it. Playing any two fouls, you were in deep without a life vest if your opponent rolled to a jump shot. You had to kick and hit the ball, turning whitey loose, or pass it back and take your chances.

I learned how to jump right away (with a Meucci :D) and used it to my advantage for a while. Players who couldn't jump wanted to match up by playing two fouls a person. Against a top player I asked for the same game. Some guys were not only jumping, but they were using follow and draw for position.

I was gone when one foul took over. I was hoping it was a passing fad for lesser tourneys, but I saw the pros doing it, too. I understood kicking at the ball because I did it all the time from playing in ring games. It was nothing new. We used to call it, "breaking again" on the bar table. :grin-square: Watch out banana ball! banana_smiley_091.gif

Best,
Mike
 
I played many, many ways while on the road for 7 straight years.

Old Nine Baller said:
In my experience jumping balls was only prohibited in Snooker and still is.

Many players could jump balls but when playing Two-Foul 9 Ball it wasn't too intelligent a thing to do so it didn't happen often. Usually only when a guy pushed-out poorly and was made to shoot-again. It didn't happen much but it did happen.

ONB
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I played many, many ways while on the road for 7 straight years. We played 'Two Shot Shoot Out' in over 30 states for millions of dollars......here's some of the rules we played in various towns, cities and states along the way:


1) Either all balls spot, or you agree to ONLY spot the ball before the "money ball"

2) Spot all balls behind the line (in the kitchen) or put them all down (except one before the money ball.

3) Re roll outs were only allowed playing "Two Fouls by the same person"

4) Re Roll Outs were NOT allowed (without giving up ball-in-hand) playing "any two fouls"

5) Alternate breaks (not our favorite way to play, but chosen by some)

6) Winner breaks (most common)

7) Loser breaks (least common)

8) Ball frozen on the rail would make the rail "dead" and you have to go
another rail for a legal hit....this could be cue ball or object ball.

9) Frozen balls don't "kill" rail

10) Three fouls are loss of game (rare, but did come up in two shot shoot out)

11) No Three Foul Rule - occasionally this could result in a stale mate if a ball was wedged in the corner by another ball.....balls were re racked and broken again.

12) "Races" or "Ahead Sets" were common, races were the first one to a
given number (11) and ahead sets were first one to get X games ahead of opponent.
We also played a lot "by the game" - this was back when there was more "heart".

We always played the Ball-in-Hand anywhere on the table exactly like "one-foul-ball-in-hand".....although there were people that played "behind the line" on any foul - they were a special group we called........better not divulge their slang names.

These are most of the main rules variations, although there are a few more. They're not complicated, we actually had a "standard" set of rules for the professional gamblers in the country, we played virtually the same way although it paid to know how the different rules variations effected the "matching up" process.

I actually was schooled on this as well in the prestigious college I attended on the road called "Pool School". 'The Game was our Teacher'
 
I played Billy Ray outside of Chattanooga Tennessee at a place called "Browns"

Chip Roberson said:
Billy Ray was the first I ever saw that jumped the balls and he did it pretty dang good--Eddie O'Connell and I picked him up down in SC and headed over to Spartenburg--1980 I'm thining and Billy matched up with Pete Horn--Billy made a push behind a ball from the object ball--Pete declined and Billy jumped the ball and was out--and out and out some more, He hide the jump to some extent, but played upon it when needed ,Pete played good too,but Billy traped alot of good players over the years.
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I played Billy Ray outside of Chattanooga Tennessee at a place called "Browns"....I believe they filmed 'The Night the Lights Went Out in Georgia' there. (I knew Pete Horn as well, but he never would match up, I lived near Spartanburg in 1985)

It's ironic that you bring him up because I actually ended up beating him on a jump shot. We were using the "Mud Ball" and he had trouble jumping it so it gave me an advantage.

He was a really good player on the bar table...I heard he had some legal issues later on - I hope he got through that stage of his life ok. :D
 
"LIL Earl" Strickland was the first one I heard about in Texas rolling out to jump

Mikjary said:
When the top players started jumping balls, the rest of the pool world scrambled to learn how to do it. Playing any two fouls, you were in deep without a life vest if your opponent rolled to a jump shot. You had to kick and hit the ball, turning whitey loose, or pass it back and take your chances.

I learned how to jump right away (with a Meucci :D) and used it to my advantage for a while. Players who couldn't jump wanted to match up by playing two fouls a person. Against a top player I asked for the same game. Some guys were not only jumping, but they were using follow and draw for position.

I was gone when one foul took over. I was hoping it was a passing fad for lesser tourneys, but I saw the pros doing it, too. I understood kicking at the ball because I did it all the time from playing in ring games. It was nothing new. We used to call it, "breaking again" on the bar table. :grin-square: Watch out banana ball! View attachment 305172

Best,
Mike
Click to expand...

Yes, if you could jump balls it was a advantage playing 'Two Shot Shoot Out' and also intimidating to many players. More times than not I wouldn't use this "weapon" unless I was playing a top notch player, or had someone locked up in a big gambling set.

"LIL Earl" Strickland was the first one I heard about in Texas rolling out to jump shots. It caused quite a stir in the gambling world. He went through Dallas and gave "Lil Al" the Wild 6 Playing the game and no one thought he could win.....he won easily.

Earl was a top notch gambling player, not everyone will remember this because he quit gambling entirely when Cue T. Cues started sponsoring him.
 
CJ Wiley said:
I played many, many ways while on the road for 7 straight years. We played 'Two Shot Shoot Out' in over 30 states for millions of dollars......here's some of the rules we played in various towns, cities and states along the way:


1) Either all balls spot, or you agree to ONLY spot the ball before the "money ball"

2) Spot all balls behind the line (in the kitchen) or put them all down (except one before the money ball.

3) Re roll outs were only allowed playing "Two Fouls by the same person"

4) Re Roll Outs were NOT allowed (without giving up ball-in-hand) playing "any two fouls"

5) Alternate breaks (not our favorite way to play, but chosen by some)

6) Winner breaks (most common)

7) Loser breaks (least common)

8) Ball frozen on the rail would make the rail "dead" and you have to go
another rail for a legal hit....this could be cue ball or object ball.

9) Frozen balls don't "kill" rail

10) Three fouls are loss of game (rare, but did come up in two shot shoot out)

11) No Three Foul Rule - occasionally this could result in a stale mate if a ball was wedged in the corner by another ball.....balls were re racked and broken again.

12) "Races" or "Ahead Sets" were common, races were the first one to a
given number (11) and ahead sets were first one to get X games ahead of opponent.
We also played a lot "by the game" - this was back when there was more "heart".

We always played the Ball-in-Hand anywhere on the table exactly like "one-foul-ball-in-hand".....although there were people that played "behind the line" on any foul - they were a special group we called........better not divulge their slang names.

These are most of the main rules variations, although there are a few more. They're not complicated, we actually had a "standard" set of rules for the professional gamblers in the country, we played virtually the same way although it paid to know how the different rules variations effected the "matching up" process.

I actually was schooled on this as well in the prestigious college I attended on the road called "Pool School". 'The Game was our Teacher'
Click to expand...

How many times are you going to post this same exact post in this thread? Are you daft?

ONB
 
Rules question

If the first foul is a scratch is that behind the line / in the kitchen?

Can you ask for the low ball to be spotted if you are shooting after a scratch if it is out of the kitchen, this question was asked of me to day, I was told this was how 15 ball rotation is played?

If the 2nd foul is a scratch is it BIH on the whole table.

If a player is on the 9 ball and it is out of the kitchen and the shooter scratches when there are no fouls, does the incoming player have cue ball in the kitchen and shoots directly at the 9 or is the 8 spotted even though it was not on the table for shot that was scratched? OR Is the 8 only spotted if it was made and the shooter scratched while while making the 8.

Also on the first fould you don't have to announce pushout right, you just roll out intentionally OR if you are trying to thin a ball and get no hit or get a hit and no rail all these are the same opposing player can shoot or give it back. No matter who shoots next they have to make a good hit and make a ball or get a rail otherwise the non-shooting player has ball in hand.

I have played this 2 shot a couple of times in the last 2 days. I think I prefer to play the 2 fouls are shared vs the 2 fouls per player. This is definitely a little different than the 1 shot.
 
elvicash said:
Rules question

If the first foul is a scratch is that behind the line / in the kitchen?A 1st foul pocket scratch is BIH behind the headstring in any type "two-foul" game. The opponent can make you shoot again.

Can you ask for the low ball to be spotted if you are shooting after a scratch if it is out of the kitchen, this question was asked of me to day, I was told this was how 15 ball rotation is played? Absolutely not.

If the 2nd foul is a scratch is it BIH on the whole table. Yes. Any 2nd foul is BIH anywhere on the table, if playing "any-two".

If a player is on the 9 ball and it is out of the kitchen and the shooter scratches when there are no fouls, does the incoming player have cue ball in the kitchen and shoots directly at the 9 or is the 8 spotted even though it was not on the table for shot that was scratched?The 9 would stay where it's at and the incoming player would have a choice of shooting it or telling you to shoot again from behind the headstring. OR Is the 8 only spotted if it was made and the shooter scratched while while making the 8.The 8 would spot up if you were playing "everything spots up" or if you were playing "the ball before the money spots up (on a foul)"

Also on the first fould you don't have to announce pushout right, you just roll out intentionally OR if you are trying to thin a ball and get no hit or get a hit and no rail all these are the same opposing player can shoot or give it back. No matter who shoots next they have to make a good hit and make a ball or get a rail otherwise the non-shooting player has ball in hand. Correct.

I have played this 2 shot a couple of times in the last 2 days. I think I prefer to play the 2 fouls are shared vs the 2 fouls per player. This is definitely a little different than the 1 shot.
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You do not have to announce any foul or push-out, ever. You are correct.

The version you seem to prefer is called "any-two". The other version is "two by the same player".

"Any-Two" was the preferred version for any top player that I knew and for myself as well. Simply and accurately put, anytime there are two consecutive fouls BIH is given to the player who did not commit the 2nd foul.

ONB
 
I agree with most info in this thread, but the rules of pool in the 60's and 70's through 1979 ( when I quit pool ) did not allow a player to force the cue ball to leave the bed of the table. It was a foul. I spent 10 yrs at Bennies room and never saw a player jump a ball. I was on the road with Richie Florence, Little Albert, Seattle Sam, and some others. No one jumped the cue ball because it was a foul. One foul and jumping ruined 9-ball and I doubt it will be back.....which is a shame
 
Gunn_Slinger said:
I agree with most info in this thread, but the rules of pool in the 60's and 70's through 1979 ( when I quit pool ) did not allow a player to force the cue ball to leave the bed of the table. It was a foul. I spent 10 yrs at Bennies room and never saw a player jump a ball. I was on the road with Richie Florence, Little Albert, Seattle Sam, and some others. No one jumped the cue ball because it was a foul. One foul and jumping ruined 9-ball and I doubt it will be back.....which is a shame
Click to expand...

I agree. I got into serious pool in 1973 and it was a long time before I saw any jumping and it wasn't in push out 9 ball. Only after the current one-foul-ball-in-hand-anywhere rules became prevalent.
 
elvicash said:
Rules question

If the first foul is a scratch is that behind the line / in the kitchen? Yes.

Can you ask for the low ball to be spotted if you are shooting after a scratch if it is out of the kitchen, this question was asked of me to day, No. I was told this was how 15 ball rotation is played?.

If the 2nd foul is a scratch is it BIH on the whole table. Yes.

If a player is on the 9 ball and it is out of the kitchen and the shooter scratches when there are no fouls, does the incoming player have cue ball in the kitchen and shoots directly at the 9 Yes. or is the 8 spotted even though it was not on the table for shot that was scratched? No. OR Is the 8 only spotted if it was made and the shooter scratched while while making the 8. Yes.

Also on the first fould you don't have to announce pushout right, you just roll out intentionally Yes. OR if you are trying to thin a ball and get no hit or get a hit and no rail all these are the same opposing player can shoot or give it back. Yes. No matter who shoots next they have to make a good hit and make a ball or get a rail otherwise the non-shooting player has ball in hand. Yes.

I have played this 2 shot a couple of times in the last 2 days. I think I prefer to play the 2 fouls are shared vs the 2 fouls per player. This is definitely a little different than the 1 shot.
Click to expand...

Best,
Mike
 
CJ Wiley said:
One foul 9 Ball is not a good gambling game...as a matter of fact it's a terrible gambling game, but the players seem to think they have no other choice. 'Two Shot Shoot Out' must be brought back or one foul will continue to dilute the game down into nothing.
Click to expand...

While I do think 2F9B is the superior game, I disagree that one foul isn't a good gambling game. In fact, I think it's a great gambling game.

- Fast paced, which leads to money exchanging hands more often.
- The ride the 9 mentality allows weaker players to think they have a chance.
- Having luck involved in a gambling game means more action from the fish.

I compare one foul to no limit hold'em, and 2F9B to limit hold'em. Meaning if a weak player were to go heads up vs. Phil Ivey in a no limit match, the weak player would have a chance (not in the long run, of course). The reason for this is the ability to go all-in at anytime. If he goes all-in before the flop, and Ivey calls with aces, Ivey isn't 100% until all 5 cards are on the board. Now if they played limit hold'em, the weaker player would have absolutely no chance, because they could no longer use the luck of going all-in.
 
Gunn_Slinger said:
I agree with most info in this thread, but the rules of pool in the 60's and 70's through 1979 ( when I quit pool ) did not allow a player to force the cue ball to leave the bed of the table. It was a foul. I spent 10 yrs at Bennies room and never saw a player jump a ball. I was on the road with Richie Florence, Little Albert, Seattle Sam, and some others. No one jumped the cue ball because it was a foul. One foul and jumping ruined 9-ball and I doubt it will be back.....which is a shame
Click to expand...

Pushout said:
I agree. I got into serious pool in 1973 and it was a long time before I saw any jumping and it wasn't in push out 9 ball. Only after the current one-foul-ball-in-hand-anywhere rules became prevalent.
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Jumping while playing two-foul simply was not a percentage shot, that's probably why you guys didn't see it. It could have been banned in the rooms you played in but it wasn't in any I was in.

Many times a player would jump the edge of a ball or 1/4 or 1/2 a ball. Jumping full balls only became necessary in 1-foul since the penalty is so high for not hitting the object ball. BIH usually results in loss of game so the jumpers could make a good hit and take their chances with the leave.

Jumping simply was not the high-percentage shot in two-foul.

ONB
 
People in Texas were buzzing about Earl's jump shots for months.

Gunn_Slinger said:
I agree with most info in this thread, but the rules of pool in the 60's and 70's through 1979 ( when I quit pool ) did not allow a player to force the cue ball to leave the bed of the table. It was a foul. I spent 10 yrs at Bennies room and never saw a player jump a ball. I was on the road with Richie Florence, Little Albert, Seattle Sam, and some others. No one jumped the cue ball because it was a foul. One foul and jumping ruined 9-ball and I doubt it will be back.....which is a shame
Click to expand...

I've never heard of jumping in 'Two Shot Shoot Out' being illegal, it was just not being done until "Lil" Earl Strickland started doing it in Texas (he was living in Houston).

Earl tells the story better than I could about how the older players reacted to him jumping his cue ball over object balls. It's hilarious, I'm sure Joe Rogan would have fun imitating him doing this "skit".
th


I was playing in Dallas right after he came through and gave "Little Al" the Wild 6 playing SHOOT OUT and heisted him....people in Texas were buzzing about the jump shots for months....it was exciting to see the way Earl changed the game for some people. :D
 
Ask FatBoy what the percentages of "jump shots" are when he's seen it played..

Old Nine Baller said:
Jumping simply was not the high-percentage shot in two-foul.

ONB
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Click to expand...


Maybe not in your world. :groucho: Ask FatBoy what the percentages of "jump shots" are when he's seen it played.....especially the HIGH DOLLAR matches in Las Vegas. :D
 
it would be difficult to explain the differences in a way that would "click".

BeiberLvr said:
While I do think 2F9B is the superior game, I disagree that one foul isn't a good gambling game. In fact, I think it's a great gambling game.
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Click to expand...


You have every right to your opinion, however, until you've actually played 'Two Shot Shoot Out' it would be difficult to explain the differences in a way that would "click".....it's a very complex game and an entire book could be written on the strategy of "push outs" alone. There was 100 times more gambling on 'Two Shot Shoot Out' than there's ever been on "one-foul-ball-in-hand".....it's because of the strategy and element of "battle" in Shoot Out.
 
CJ Wiley said:
You have every right to your opinion, however, until you've actually played 'Two Shot Shoot Out' it would be difficult to explain the differences in a way that would "click".....it's a very complex game and an entire book could be written on the strategy of "push outs" alone. There was 100 times more gambling on 'Two Shot Shoot Out' than there's ever been on "one-foul-ball-in-hand".....it's because of the strategy and element of "battle" in Shoot Out.
Click to expand...

I have played it.

I love it.

The point you skipped over is that the fish would hate it.

It's a much better way to play than one foul, but any game that the weaker players will stay away from, isn't a great gambling game. For two great players, however, it is a great gambling game since it eliminates most of the luck that the better players don't like.
 
this is the driving force behind the popularity of poker.

BeiberLvr said:
I have played it.

I love it.

The point you skipped over is that the fish would hate it.

It's a much better way to play than one foul, but any game that the weaker players will stay away from, isn't a great gambling game. For two great players, however, it is a great gambling game since it eliminates most of the luck that the better players don't like.
Click to expand...

The weaker players like it better too....they just need more "weight" (handicap).

Everyone likes strategic games to gamble at, this is the driving force behind the popularity of poker.....they identified what people like about gambling and gave it to them......in large doses. :D

One foul is a diluted version of pool and doesn't have enough "meat" for a true gambler's appetite....one foul is "milk" to gamblers.....it's better than nothing, but no one will ever want to watch it very long (without a bottle and a nap;)).....the average viewing is 3 minutes on line because there's no "hook" to keep people entertained.
 
BeiberLvr said:
I have played it.

I love it.

The point you skipped over is that the fish would hate it.

It's a much better way to play than one foul, but any game that the weaker players will stay away from, isn't a great gambling game. For two great players, however, it is a great gambling game since it eliminates most of the luck that the better players don't like.
Click to expand...

Your bolded comments above bring up another point about two shot shoot out that could probably be a chapter in CJ's book. Playing strategically, you didn't have to make many tough shots if you were waiting for the bet to raise. You could roll out instead of going for the harder shots and duck on pass backs or the other player's pushes.

We've been talking about generating some interest in the game because of players showing some heart and running out. The flip side was and is that there are many ways to move without showing too much speed. Slowing the game down with calculated roll outs will over amp some players and have them making mistakes. They keep looking for something, but they can't figure out how you play till the end of the night.

You can win and not scare away other action by shooting circus outs. Beating your opponent may take a little longer, but they'd never know how good you really play. :cool:

Best,
Mike
 
Mikjary said:
Your bolded comments above bring up another point about two shot shoot out that could probably be a chapter in CJ's book. Playing strategically, you didn't have to make many tough shots if you were waiting for the bet to raise. You could roll out instead of going for the harder shots and duck on pass backs or the other player's pushes.

We've been talking about generating some interest in the game because of players showing some heart and running out. The flip side was and is that there are many ways to move without showing too much speed. Slowing the game down with calculated roll outs will over amp some players and have them making mistakes. They keep looking for something, but they can't figure out how you play till the end of the night.

You can win and not scare away other action by shooting circus outs. Beating your opponent may take a little longer, but they'd never know how good you really play. :cool:

Best,
Mike
Click to expand...

Good points.

The same can be done (to a degree) in one foul as well. Which makes me wonder what actually is the toughest game to hide one's true speed.

I don't know much about hustling as I've never done it before. I always try my best to win. I just happen to try a little harder when the bet gets raised ;)
 
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