ugh, what would you have tried

I think unwate has it right. It is very difficult to play a safe here that is going to win you the game. You may get out of the inning, but against a good player you are never going to see the light of day again and he will eventually get out. I think this is even more true on a bar table. cutting the five or banking the 2 on a bar table are pretty makeable shots (not easy) but makeable and in my opinion you will have a much better chance of winning the game.
 
Another thought about this is that even if you hit the safe perfectly and freeze the guy to your two ball he will still be able to hit your five even if he has to go one rail and put it on or near the eight or eleven and even though you will have ball in hand you will still be in serious trouble.
 
I'd elect to keep control of the table.

Others have mentioned this already and I'll agre.


Move the five in front of the the pocket. What this will do is keep him from using his 12 as a breaker and allows you to use your 5 as a breaker. Of course, he will change this situation by the time you get back to the table... but you still leave him a VERY low percentage of getting out and you controll the table by owning the pocket and having a prime breaker.

This is like a one pocket situation. You want your opponant countering your moves instead of you countering his. even though you give him room to work, you have controll of the table which puts you at the advantage.

In 8 Ball, it is not always important to get out or play the best possible safe you can. What is important is assuring you get to the table again.

If I moved the five in front of the pocket, I'd like to see anybody take the chance on getting out from there. That is what I would hope for.. you trying to get out instead of dealing with my breaker in a safe manner. If you played smart, we would be in a strategic game and - may the best man win ;)
 
CaptiveBred said:
I'd elect to keep control of the table.

Others have mentioned this already and I'll agre.


Move the five in front of the the pocket. What this will do is keep him from using his 12 as a breaker and allows you to use your 5 as a breaker. Of course, he will change this situation by the time you get back to the table... but you still leave him a VERY low percentage of getting out and you controll the table by owning the pocket and having a prime breaker.

This is like a one pocket situation. You want your opponant countering your moves instead of you countering his. even though you give him room to work, you have controll of the table which puts you at the advantage.

In 8 Ball, it is not always important to get out or play the best possible safe you can. What is important is assuring you get to the table again.

If I moved the five in front of the pocket, I'd like to see anybody take the chance on getting out from there. That is what I would hope for.. you trying to get out instead of dealing with my breaker in a safe manner. If you played smart, we would be in a strategic game and - may the best man win ;)
Click to expand...


I understand your theory and I agree with it in many situations. The problem here is that once you hang the five in front of the hole your opponent can simply pocket your five by shooting the combo or the carom and now you have one ball left and it a trouble ball and you cant bank at it and you cant play safe and again you are in more trouble than when you started.

START(
%A[5\4%BK6Z3%C[4\3%D[4\6%ED6Z0%F[3\4%G[2\4%HK9D6%I[4\1%J[3\6
%KQ1E7%LM0S2%MZ0F1%NL8Z9%OJ7U3%PZ4L8%UK8T3%VL2S8%WN4R4%XY1M2
%[F2X9%\J0U8
)END

and then you end up something like this.

START(
%A[5\4%BK6Z3%C[4\3%D[4\6%EB8[9%F[3\4%G[2\4%HK9D6%I[4\1%J[3\6
%KQ1E7%LI5U0%MZ0F1%NL8Z9%OD7Z1%PE2P4
)END
 
The Grinder said:
I understand your theory and I agree with it in many situations. The problem here is that once you hang the five in front of the hole your opponent can simply pocket your five by shooting the combo or the carom and now you have one ball left and it a trouble ball and you cant bank at it and you cant play safe and again you are in more trouble than when you started.

START(
%A[5\4%BK6Z3%C[4\3%D[4\6%ED6Z0%F[3\4%G[2\4%HK9D6%I[4\1%J[3\6
%KQ1E7%LM0S2%MZ0F1%NL8Z9%OJ7U3%PZ4L8%UK8T3%VL2S8%WN4R4%XY1M2
%[F2X9%\J0U8
)END

and then you end up something like this.

START(
%A[5\4%BK6Z3%C[4\3%D[4\6%EB8[9%F[3\4%G[2\4%HK9D6%I[4\1%J[3\6
%KQ1E7%LI5U0%MZ0F1%NL8Z9%OD7Z1%PE2P4
)END
Click to expand...

So you;re suggesting that in order to give you a bad position the opponent is going to have to execute a FULL table THREE ball combo?because with that original shot the table would end up more like this,

START(
%A[5\4%BK6Z3%C[4\3%D[4\6%ED6Z0%F[3\4%G[2\4%HK9D6%I[4\1%J[3\6
%KQ1E7%LM0S2%MZ0F1%NL8Z9%OJ7U3%Pq1K5%UK8T3%VL2S8%WN4R4%Xo7K7
%[F2X9%\J0U8
)END

I'll take that over the chance of running out the original position any day of the week....

Captive bred said it well, you need to maintain control of the table and giving the opponent a 10% chance at gaining the advantage is well worth it IMO.
 
Last edited:
If you have a ball hanging in the pocket and a two ball combo that is lined up pretty straight as it is in the diagram then it is actually easier than pocketing the 2 ball combo especialy on a bar table. On a big table or a table with tight pockets I agree this could be a problem, but IMO on a bar table the shot is pretty easy if the five is right in front of the hole. Anyway just offering my thoughts. I think that given the diagram that solids is at a severe disadvantage no matter what you do if you are playing a good player.
 
This would be a higher percentage shot by the opponent, that he would be more likely to go for.

START(
%A[5\4%BK6Z3%C[4\3%D[4\6%ED6Z0%F[3\4%G[2\4%HK9D6%I[4\1%J[3\6
%KQ1E7%LM0S2%MZ0F1%NL8Z9%OJ7U3%Pq1K5%WK8V4%Xo7K7%[F2X9%\I8W0
)END


But that would leave you with a lock up safety like this...

START(
%A[5\4%BK6Z3%C[4\3%D[4\6%EB5\1%F[3\4%G[2\4%HK9D6%I[4\1%J[3\6
%KQ1E7%LM0S2%MZ0F1%NL8Z9%OC8M0%PF6Y2%UJ7[0%VJ4Z6%WJ0Z2%XG6Y3
%YK9Z6%ZL1Y8%[S4Z0%\M6Z7
)END

Leaving the CB locked up on the two.
 
The carom is fine also I agree with that. The "lock up" safety you are talking about is extremely tough to do wothout selling out a shot on the fifteen unless you are playing on a very slooooowwwww table.
 
I'd be willing to set it up and demo it 6 of 10? and sixty percent in that situation is a hell of a lot better than the original runout....

Of course I only play on nine footers so I always think from that perspective.....
 
Heres my final solution.....

Step one. Forfeit the game

Step two. Put the cement rack on him.

Step three. tying up in knots winning the game with safes.

Step four. Now that you are on the breaking end hit em with a 5 pack.

Just kidding..... I could debate stratey all day and I really enjoy what the WEI table and this forum allows when it comes to sharing scenarios like this.
 
The Grinder said:
I understand your theory and I agree with it in many situations. The problem here is that once you hang the five in front of the hole your opponent can simply pocket your five by shooting the combo or the carom and now you have one ball left and it a trouble ball and you cant bank at it and you cant play safe and again you are in more trouble than when you started.
Click to expand...

I would expect something like that. Although I would not want to leave the combo so easy. I would want to leave it so you had to gamble and possibly leave me an out.

Here is how I would counter that -

I would carom the 15 in off the 12 sending it down table, hopefully 2 rails to the other side to make it harder to use as a breaker. This would result in ball in hand for you.

START(
%A[5\4%BK6Z3%C[4\3%D[4\6%EB8[9%F[3\4%G[2\4%HK9D6%I[4\1%J[3\6
%KQ1E7%Lk8D9%MZ0F1%NL8Z9%OB7\0%PE2P4
)END

From here you have a decent chance to break out. Off the 13 or maybe the 12 but it is still very risky unless you know, forsure, you can pull it off. Now you still have the 11 in a spot that is not ideal and if you do break out, my ball will be out too. If you get out from here, with 1, possibly 2 balls in trouble, you earned the win and deserve it.


This is how I would expect it to play out - You would miss the break out and play some sort of safe on the 11 to get it to a better spot. Then I would take another foul and pocket the 11 or the 12, whichever is a better breaker. Now that you see how I am going to play you, what are you going to do? take another chance? If you do, I get one step closer to evening the table. if you play safe and let me see your other ball, I pocket it and make you play the safe game or ask for a draw. The best you could hope for is to play a safe where I can not make your breaker ball. I say that is better than getting out because you have a better chance of keeping me from seeing your breaker than you have of getting out.


Its playing the odds. When faced with a real tough situation, this wins more games, for me, than anything else. I don't always win or maybe not even 50% of the time win. But it is a better percentage of winning than any agressive moves. Even one extra game is worth it :)
 
Devil's advocate

The Grinder said:
I understand your theory and I agree with it in many situations. The problem here is that once you hang the five in front of the hole your opponent can simply pocket your five by shooting the combo or the carom and now you have one ball left and it a trouble ball and you cant bank at it and you cant play safe and again you are in more trouble than when you started.
Click to expand...
For that reason I like either crossing the 2 or playing safe behind the 8 which is also tough. The only problem I see with snugging up against the two is that you're sending the 5 ball away from your problem ball.

Solid's situation is pretty desperate so I'd look to do something aggressive as soon as possible. Against a good player, you never know when they'll be able to break that 14 and get out. One stripe seems to be blocked by the 8 but that has an easy solution because of the other stripe hanging in the side pocket.

Like Grinder, it looks to me hanging the 5 is inviting disaster. jmho
 
Another defensive option

This is not an easy situation and a lot of good ideas have been presented.

One other thought, depending on how good your opponent is, is to push the 11 down into a cluster with the 8, giving your opponent ball in hand, but two clusters to deal with to get out. If you were lucky, or good, the 11 would get in such a position that the breakout would either make the 8 in the corner or block that pocket with the 8 from the 12 or 15.

Attempted breakouts can result in some funny things happenng, even to good players.

This might result in a prolonged safety battle, but I think that is the best you could hope for from here.
 
I like slow rolling the cue ball to hit the five and lie close to the pocket. Looks like the two stripes in the middle of the table act as blockers to the ball closest to the side pocket. After that, just keep playing safe and make him deal with the eight ball blocking the corner and the 2 ball being tied up. With a good enough hit on the five, you could end up putting it in a position where a nice angle on the five could bust out the two. Tough, though, tough...
 
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