Understanding of tables and banks. I'm confused

[brusk]

I've been playing typical bar billiards for years and am ok. I just started taking it more serious this year and joined an APA league. I jump from 4-5 depending on my nights apparently. I've been watching plenty of videos and going to the local hang out to practice on their Diamond tables. Banking has always been a week spot of mine, I can usually get it in or close going length wise but side to side pretty far off. I tried doing basic to test the table like put the cue ball in the side pocket and aim for the middle diamond on the other side and it should to in the corner. Not banking just hitting a single ball. It consistently goes to the 1st diamond on the same side of the table instead of the pocket. I've tried several 'known angles' and similar results of coming up short. I've had my roommate try it as he's better than me and the same. Are some tables just junk or am I looking at a place that needs to replace their stuff.

FYI we've also tried the rolling english that some guys recommend on rail kicks and it literally takes to tips over of english to get it barely to the pocket.

 

[Texas Carom Club]

some are junk
but all are different and theres never just one way of doing things
just have to keep at it

banks confuse most of us too

 

[hang-the-9]

I've been playing typical bar billiards for years and am ok. I just started taking it more serious this year and joined an APA league. I jump from 4-5 depending on my nights apparently. I've been watching plenty of videos and going to the local hang out to practice on their Diamond tables. Banking has always been a week spot of mine, I can usually get it in or close going length wise but side to side pretty far off. I tried doing basic to test the table like put the cue ball in the side pocket and aim for the middle diamond on the other side and it should to in the corner. Not banking just hitting a single ball. It consistently goes to the 1st diamond on the same side of the table instead of the pocket. I've tried several 'known angles' and similar results of coming up short. I've had my roommate try it as he's better than me and the same. Are some tables just junk or am I looking at a place that needs to replace their stuff.

FYI we've also tried the rolling english that some guys recommend on rail kicks and it literally takes to tips over of english to get it barely to the pocket.

Yes many tables don't bank perfectly. There is no magic to this except see what makes it go in from a basic idea of how to bank (mirror system, diamond system, just look at it and use your brain, whatever). A system or instruction will get you a basic idea of how do to something, experience will get you successful at it.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I've been playing typical bar billiards for years and am ok. I just started taking it more serious this year and joined an APA league. I jump from 4-5 depending on my nights apparently. I've been watching plenty of videos and going to the local hang out to practice on their Diamond tables. Banking has always been a week spot of mine, I can usually get it in or close going length wise but side to side pretty far off. I tried doing basic to test the table like put the cue ball in the side pocket and aim for the middle diamond on the other side and it should to in the corner. Not banking just hitting a single ball. It consistently goes to the 1st diamond on the same side of the table instead of the pocket. I've tried several 'known angles' and similar results of coming up short. I've had my roommate try it as he's better than me and the same. Are some tables just junk or am I looking at a place that needs to replace their stuff.

FYI we've also tried the rolling english that some guys recommend on rail kicks and it literally takes to tips over of english to get it barely to the pocket.

1. Diamond tables are known to bank a little shorter than other tables (but not a full diamond short on a half table kick).

2. How hard are you hitting 'em? Too hard and the rolling CB might not be fully rolling.

Although the true "equal angle" aim point is at the cushion nose in front of the middle diamond, with a rolling CB you need to aim a little shorter because the forward roll will curve the rebound a little too long otherwise - here's an illustration of that difference (aiming at the spot on the rail).

pj
chgo

 

[brusk]

1. Diamond tables are known to bank a little shorter than other tables (but not a full diamond short on a half table kick).

2. How hard are you hitting 'em? Too hard and the rolling CB might not be fully rolling.

Although the true "equal angle" aim point is at the cushion nose in front of the middle diamond, with a rolling CB you need to aim a little shorter because the forward roll will curve the rebound a little too long otherwise - here's an illustration of that difference (aiming at the spot on the rail).

pj
chgo

View attachment 542889

That's what seems weird on the tables around here. I see plenty of videos showing a decent difference between a soft and hard hit. These tables it's very little difference. But to answer your question we've tried hard, medium, soft doing the same side to corner kick and only made less that an inch of difference in the hit.

 

[dr_dave]

I've been playing typical bar billiards for years and am ok. I just started taking it more serious this year and joined an APA league. I jump from 4-5 depending on my nights apparently. I've been watching plenty of videos and going to the local hang out to practice on their Diamond tables. Banking has always been a week spot of mine, I can usually get it in or close going length wise but side to side pretty far off. I tried doing basic to test the table like put the cue ball in the side pocket and aim for the middle diamond on the other side and it should to in the corner. Not banking just hitting a single ball. It consistently goes to the 1st diamond on the same side of the table instead of the pocket. I've tried several 'known angles' and similar results of coming up short. I've had my roommate try it as he's better than me and the same. Are some tables just junk or am I looking at a place that needs to replace their stuff.

Diamond tables do bank shorter than most other tables, especially the older "Red Label" Diamonds. For more info, see the video and advice here:

how to adjust for Diamond tables banking short

Regards,
Dave

 

[Patrick Johnson]

That's what seems weird on the tables around here. I see plenty of videos showing a decent difference between a soft and hard hit. These tables it's very little difference. But to answer your question we've tried hard, medium, soft doing the same side to corner kick and only made less that an inch of difference in the hit.

Another possibility is that the height of the rail nose is too high, putting some "shortening" spin on the CB as it rebounds. Here's a pic of a normal rail height (~1 3/8") - higher than that would probably make balls rebound short. I think this is what makes older Diamond tables kick/bank shorter.

[EDIT - I see that Dr. Dave says the opposite in his video: lower Diamond rails make balls rebound shorter, not higher rails. My mistake.]

pj
chgo

 

[brusk]

Diamond tables do bank shorter than most other tables, especially the older "Red Label" Diamonds. For more info, see the video and advice here:

how to adjust for Diamond tables banking short

Regards,
Dave

Thank you this video shows exactly what I'm talking about. Those are the exact placements I was getting. Well now I understand why I'm having such problems trying to use skills from videos. That really dissapoints me that people around here use Diamond tables.

 

[RichB82]

Thank you this video shows exactly what I'm talking about. Those are the exact placements I was getting. Well now I understand why I'm having such problems trying to use skills from videos. That really dissapoints me that people around here use Diamond tables.

Diamond tables are typically the best tables around, but also difficult to work your way around if you're not smart with your play. Also, like every other thing that's used and abused, they need to be maintained. If you're playing on older tables that have been subjected to years and years of abuse by casual "smasher" type players, they could have dead rails that won't give you the results you're looking for.

As has been said already, every table is different!

 

[MattPoland]

Diamonds bank and kick short.

For kicking I take a known angle (side pocket to 2nd diamond to corner pocket) and hit it medium-soft speed with running top spin. If it goes short, I set it up again adding a tad of running side spin. Repeat initial it goes in. I take note of that much side spin and apply it to all my kicks. I use that information when judging my banks which always go shorter than my kicks because I tend to bank with medium-hard speed.

Over time that information is a baseline for standard expectations for different tables. Valleys tend to only need top. Diamonds tend to need a quarter tip of side. For me most tables either play like a Valley or play like a Diamond. That thought will go through my head “Oh! This table plays like a Diamond.”


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[DynoDan]

Diamond tables are typically the best tables around, but also difficult to work your way around if you're not smart with your play. Also, like every other thing that's used and abused, they need to be maintained. If you're playing on older tables that have been subjected to years and years of abuse by casual "smasher" type players, they could have dead rails that won't give you the results you're looking for.

As has been said already, every table is different!

I am curious re: how cloth wear typically influences bank angles? My early Diamond 9’ Pro with ancient 760 rail cloth (noses have turned white) seems to bank & kick polished balls geometrically accurate if straight cross side & table length, but 3-rail shots alway go long/wide. Cloth is scheduled for replacement soon, but then so are the cushions also, so no direct comparison will be possible to evaluate final setup performance.

 

[JazzyJeff87]

Thank you this video shows exactly what I'm talking about. Those are the exact placements I was getting. Well now I understand why I'm having such problems trying to use skills from videos. That really dissapoints me that people around here use Diamond tables.

Banking and kicking can be a finicky art, as others have said. I bank a lot better than I kick.

For banks there is so much to understand it can almost seem impossible. Things that affect banks: speed of the ball, action of the ball (rolling, sliding, twisting because of English or because you cut the ball), rails, the cloth, humidity, how often you shave, etc etc. lol. It’s the interaction, synergistic / canceling effect of these factors that gets even more confusing to try to consciously think about.

I’ve got the book “banking with the beard” which has some good stuff in it but I haven’t gotten too in depth with it. I just shoot a lot of banks. If you’re on a table often enough you will get to know it well (in your back brain at the least) and you’ll be able to make adjustments depending what factors are working against you.

Two quick banks I can think of that have given me AHA moments when I first started..1 diamond up from the corner pockets put a ball and the CB in line with that 1st diamond, just a simple short bank back to where you’re standing. The object ball should be 2 ball widths off the rail, cue ball about 4-6 inches behind it. You can shoot the ball full in the face, fairly soft, and if you put outside English on the CB it will twist the ball back to the pocket.

Now with the same setup use a harder hit and hit center of the cue ball, you will now have to cut that ball a lot to make the bank, cut it so much it seems like it will be landing somewhere in the middle of the short rail.

The first bank you’re using pure “helping” English to spin the ball in from a full ball hit, the second bank is putting the opposite spin on the object ball because of the cut angle and that spin holds it up off the rail. It closes the angle, where the first example opens the angle.

I hope that’s not too confusing lol. It just helped me understand banks a lot when I set up this simple bank and tried it a bunch of ways.

 

[MitchAlsup]

One of the things lessor players do not understand about banks is that the CB or OB (in general) have forward rolling spin when they get to the rail.

This forward spin after bouncing off the rail causes the ball to arc forward and not take the mirror trajectory (where the mirror is positioned on the point where the ball stops going into the bank and starts going out of the bank.)

If, instead of aiming at a point on the nose of the rail, you aim at the where that point would be when coincident with the diamonds on the rail, this compensated for almost all of the forward arc because the ball has forward roll.

 

[Z-Nole]

Diamond tables are typically the best tables around, but also difficult to work your way around if you're not smart with your play. Also, like every other thing that's used and abused, they need to be maintained. If you're playing on older tables that have been subjected to years and years of abuse by casual "smasher" type players, they could have dead rails that won't give you the results you're looking for.

As has been said already, every table is different!

Diamond tables are the best around only if they are the only tables around.

 

[CocoboloCowboy]

The Diamond System is actually easy to understand, the only way to master it is practice. Every table is different, cushion are different, cloth in in various state from new to worn out. The more you practice the better you will be.

Freddie the Beard did a book, and DVD on banking. It is good instruction on the art of banking from one of the best.

 

[Floyd_M]

'Banking' on any table:
Practice until you make it consistent, only THEN play with English.

"Practice your shots so they're polished, not Polished."

 

[3kushn]

1. Diamond tables are known to bank a little shorter than other tables (but not a full diamond short on a half table kick).

2. How hard are you hitting 'em? Too hard and the rolling CB might not be fully rolling.

Although the true "equal angle" aim point is at the cushion nose in front of the middle diamond, with a rolling CB you need to aim a little shorter because the forward roll will curve the rebound a little too long otherwise - here's an illustration of that difference (aiming at the spot on the rail).

pj
chgo

View attachment 542889

If you know absolutely you're seeing center ball, there's 2 simple adjustments I think Patrick is showing in these diagrams. 1) Aim through the rail to the diamond or along that line. 2) Aim to the nose opposite the diamond or line made by the diamonds. The last 2 bottom diagrams I'd tend to aim through the rail, the others aim opposite the diamond. After several tries you should be able to find the sweet spot for a particular table. Make speed or a tad harder. Striking like break speed will shorten the angle.

BTW I haven't seen too many pool tables that comply with kicking systems like a carom table. Typical corner 5 shot from 5 to 3 typically comes up 1/2 diamond short or more from the corner. From 1st rail to the 2nd should come up close to correct although.

 

[jay helfert]

I've been playing typical bar billiards for years and am ok. I just started taking it more serious this year and joined an APA league. I jump from 4-5 depending on my nights apparently. I've been watching plenty of videos and going to the local hang out to practice on their Diamond tables. Banking has always been a week spot of mine, I can usually get it in or close going length wise but side to side pretty far off. I tried doing basic to test the table like put the cue ball in the side pocket and aim for the middle diamond on the other side and it should to in the corner. Not banking just hitting a single ball. It consistently goes to the 1st diamond on the same side of the table instead of the pocket. I've tried several 'known angles' and similar results of coming up short. I've had my roommate try it as he's better than me and the same. Are some tables just junk or am I looking at a place that needs to replace their stuff.

FYI we've also tried the rolling english that some guys recommend on rail kicks and it literally takes to tips over of english to get it barely to the pocket.

Practice, Practice, Practice! There is no set angle for making any bank shot. Speed of stroke and use of english can change things dramatically. Just shooting across the ball (as opposed to shooting a straight bank shot) affects the angle at which it rebounds off the cushion.