Unknown Case.. production knock off?

[nick serdula]

Isn't that an old Ron Thomas?

Just a few more to view...

How do you get knock off? Also as I said where JB's mind beguins most posters mind end when it comes to cases. If you don't like his words just rember he is right.
You may have a Bachelors level mentality in this subject but he is the doctor and I don't care who the poster is argueing against him you will be schooled. And you have been.
I have owned many of these. I think Ron built them for Mueller. They are superior to George and are identified by the swivles he used on the straps.

Nick

 

[peterskw]

Speaking of Shreveport and the people in the biz there:

This is a case we did for a Bill Schick cue that Roy owns.

Bill made five ivory pieces engraved to match the ivory four oval windows in
the cue and the last one with his engraved signature.
We made windows for the ivory pieces to be slipped
inside for display and removed for shipping if needed.

I am a big fan of Bill Schick cues and this case is absolutely stunning!! It made my day just getting to see it.

Thanks,

KP

 

[JB Cases]

How do you get knock off? Also as I said where JB's mind beguins most posters mind end when it comes to cases. If you don't like his words just rember he is right.

Nick

And don't forget it!

Actually I am wrong a lot. One of the things about this business is that there is always another thing to discover about who worked with whom and what the "real" story is.

I can't tell this forum a lot of what I know of the relationships in this industry that would surprise many. And by the same token I am often surprised to learn the inside stories of some brands and companies.

But I like to study the history and try to constantly improve my knowledge. So in that sense I do know a lot more than the average person but also I know that I don't know a lot more.

 

[classiccues]

Well in that case I had nothing to do with your review. I do remember being asked whether you should be sent a case for review and I said that I thought they should because you would tend to be the harshest critic due to the history between yourself and myself and if we survived your critique then it would be good. And we did because you published what I felt was an unbiased critique untainted by your well-known anti-China stance. Years later you claim that you were offered many cases for a positive review which I know for a fact no such offer was made by myself or Roy. If Bob made that offer then it was on his own and without permission from Roy.

But the fact that you claim it does beg the question then if your positive review was your true observations on the case or was it positively slanted because you had expectation of compensation for a positive review?

Per the private exchanges between you and me on this subject I came away with the idea that if you are telling the truth that you were offered ten cases in return for a positive review that then you DID sell your review. So here is your chance to clear it up.

Did you sell your review in return for the promise of ten cases? Or was your review done purely because you were asked to provide one for your expertise on cases. I know that my advice to Bob and Roy was to ask you to review the case on it's merits rather than it's origins and I felt that you did that. At the time I felt you gave a pretty fair review and even went beyond by posting a picture of the case with your Bushka inside and turned upside down..

First, if your going to try and slant something lets be honest across the board. GTF was never presented as a Roy owned or even partly owned company. EVER. It was Bob and a mystery man. The headquarted in Chicago label was a ruse because Roy new, labeling it as Chinese and with his figurehead, the case was never going to take. Something you must have agreed with because all your "it doesn't matter where its made" rhetoric and bullsh*t, you agreed to minimize the origins. So lets not confuse your pro-chinese stance with, well unless it affects the bottom line that is.

As had I known about Roy being a partner, I would have NEVER agreed to do the review, for 10 cases or 1000 cases. Since you like posting rumors on things you know nothing about, maybe we can call this a rumor swap. But actually, I am not you, so this rumor can stay sealed, for now, to those few who don't know.

As far as you and I are concerned, its clear. If you don't believe that, or can't come to grips with it, then its on you.

Well then our sources differ. But for the moment let's take Ron at his word through you. If I understand you correctly at this point, Ron and Mike talk and Ron is asked to invest in It's George. That falls through because Ron is not happy with the information he is getting on the state of the company. Ron then goes off to make cases and chooses to make cases which are substantially similar to It's George cases but with no markings on some of them. Is that about right?..

Ron starts making the cases because Mike says there is plenty of work for everyone, but sure we'll go with this for now. Since you're not man enough to name your sources, this conversation is over.

JV

 

[classiccues]

Edit: I just went back and read the first thread. I don't feel that I have anything to apologize for. I told the story as accurately as I knew it and it was in response to Roy being attacked unfairly. I welcomed correction and none was offered even by those who were in contact with Ron. I feel that I reported the news accurately.

So you and I are clear, if I tell a story as accurately as I heard it, its ok?

Roy was being attacked by Engles himself you nit, and you didn't even know it. It was for the right reasons to, Roy put up a do not buy Thomas case banner on his website. You threw Ron under the bus to muddy the waters and show what a "Great" guy Roy was and how he had to deal with ungrateful suppliers, lol.

So in the course of a few years Roy has done or been a part of:
Telling everyone not to buy Thomas or Engles cases with big text on his website. Had a cuemaker copy South Wests right down to the design and taper, then promote them as such. Took graphics made by a competitor and used them as his own. These were such great ideas he had to remove them or take them down in less than a week because of the outcry.. great idea man.

You got good friends. Maybe you should go to Thailand with him.. you'ld be surprised what 37.50 American gets you....

JV

 

[JB Cases]

First, if your going to try and slant something lets be honest across the board. GTF was never presented as a Roy owned or even partly owned company.

There was no need to make that public but those who were in the know, knew. Cases were sent from Roy to other people in the business long before anyone on AZ even knew of them.

EVER. It was Bob and a mystery man. The headquarted in Chicago label was a ruse because Roy new, labeling it as Chinese and with his figurehead, the case was never going to take.

No, actually Roy didn't care if it was labeled with China or not. Not that you believe that but it's true. In any event the entire AZ Billiards forum knew that the cases were made in China from the beginning well before you ever received one. And in fact they did "take" quite well.

And when Roy's partners dropped out and he was left being the only outlet they have thrived. So um, sorry but as much as you personally dislike Roy he still does very well with GTF cases.

Something you must have agreed with because all your "it doesn't matter where its made" rhetoric and bullsh*t, you agreed to minimize the origins. So lets not confuse your pro-chinese stance with, well unless it affects the bottom line that is.

I voted not to put ANY reference to any place permanently on the case. Just like a cue I do not feel that this is neccesary. But since I am the contract maker I put what I was told to put. I did not however minimize the origin at all. Not only were the cases introduced by me but I was quite vocal about being the maker and where they are made and we had a bunch of lively threads about it on here. On top of that I said clearly on my website that I make GTF cases and it was clearly said on the the GTF Case website where the cases are made.

My stance is not pro-Chinese, it's pro-quality. Quality can come from anywhere just as junk can come from anywhere. My position has been consistent for 20 years. I never used Made in Germany EVER when I could have and I don't use Made in China for the same reason that I don't think it matters. I tell people where I make my stuff but I don't put it on my stuff for the reasons I have stated hundreds of times.

As had I known about Roy being a partner, I would have NEVER agreed to do the review, for 10 cases or 1000 cases. Since you like posting rumors on things you know nothing about, maybe we can call this a rumor swap. But actually, I am not you, so this rumor can stay sealed, for now, to those few who don't know.

That's fine. But you did do a review and we thank you for it if it was done fairly. If you did it as a paid review then I hope we can figure that out and I will make sure to annotate it on my website and wherever I post it that you give your opinion on the cases in return for payment we didn't know about. I know that neither I nor Roy offered you any payment at all for doing a review of our product. Nor did either of us pay you for the review in any way. If Bob paid you or offered to pay you then it was without our knowledge. I can speak for myself and Roy and say that we would have never paid you a nickel for you opinion on anything. We already had positive feedback from some of the greatest living cue makers as to the quality of our cases, yours was not necessary.

As far as you and I are concerned, its clear. If you don't believe that, or can't come to grips with it, then its on you.

I have no idea what you mean here.

Ron starts making the cases because Mike says there is plenty of work for everyone, but sure we'll go with this for now. Since you're not man enough to name your sources, this conversation is over.

JV

You're right I am not "man" enough to name my source. Not that it matters. It's enough to know that Ron Thomas made cases that were a lot like It's George and at a time when It's George was in full swing. They were acquaintances with a partnership on the table. That's all I wanted to know was to know what the actual story is. I don't need to know more, my curiosity is satisfied. For now I will accept your version and if someday Mike's version should happen to be told to me then I will know both sides. If I never know then that's fine too.

 

[JB Cases]

So you and I are clear, if I tell a story as accurately as I heard it, its ok?

Sure. If it's about me then I will tell my side of it and the readers can decide which is more credible. When I relate something I am not sure of I ask for corroboration.

No one can stop you from telling things you heard, nor stop you from outright lying. All that can be done outside of legal means is to answer the statements you make as best can be done. Sounds like you are leading up to telling a whopper so have at it.

Roy was being attacked by Engles himself you nit, and you didn't even know it. It was for the right reasons to, Roy put up a do not buy Thomas case banner on his website. You threw Ron under the bus to muddy the waters and show what a "Great" guy Roy was and how he had to deal with ungrateful suppliers, lol.

Lots of people didn't know that Tommy was Engles at that time. But that doesn't matter because I wrote what needed to be written. I don't particularly care about Ron Thomas and whether you feel he was thrown under a bus or not. He was an ungrateful supplier and attempted to sabotage my business with Roy by issuing Roy and ultimatum to either stop purchasing my custom cases or be cut off. This on top of using Roy's money to build cases to take to the US Open and sell retail and then selling the remaining cases to Brianna at wholesale, leaving Roy without the cases he paid for in advance for another six months.

I did "out" Ron there but it was my choice and the way I feel about it is that Ron should never have gotten into my business. In retrospect I should have left it alone but it's done and while the wise course was to have left Ron out of it I am not going to apologize for it when the guy tried to harm my business. For no reason at all I want to add.

So in the course of a few years Roy has done or been a part of:
Telling everyone not to buy Thomas or Engles cases with big text on his website.

Which is his pergoative. Engles cheated him. Thomas took a large deposit and left Roy hanging for six months while selling to other dealers. That said Roy removed the message about Thomas cases after a day anyway.

Had a cuemaker copy South Wests right down to the design and taper, then promote them as such.

And? He was fully upfront about it and stated his reasons. So what? Someone else copies SW and you don't utter a peep. Roy does it and it's a federal crime? Roy is also part of the reason SW continues to enjoy such popularity as he has maintained a great archive for people to use as reference when ordering their SouthWest cues. Having sold so many over the years Roy has contributed to the ongoing public profile of the cues.

I happen to not agree with Roy copying SW as he did but I understand his reasons as I am sure you do not.

Took graphics made by a competitor and used them as his own.

He did not do this knowingly. He took a small image with the words South and West done with a little glow that he found through an image search and used that. Had he know it came from your site he would have never used it. And you could have had it changed in five minutes by simply making him aware of the error. And in fact when I made him aware that you were very upset about it he DID change it in five minutes to the SouthWest cues logo.

These were such great ideas he had to remove them or take them down in less than a week because of the outcry.. great idea man.

Yeah, not quite, the Alternative cues stayed up until the website redesign. And in the mean time he sold almost all of them. What's left is pictured under the cue maker's name and listed with the same description.

The tiny graphic you were so upset over stayed there for years until you complained to me about it and when I told Roy he promptly removed it.

The story of Engles didn't make it in the website redesign but was there for years and years.

The advice to COMPARE Ron Thomas with GTF before making a purchase was taken down because after some discussion Roy felt that he should not be negative towards Ron, especially considering that he had a pretty good stock of Thomas cases still in stock. However Roy did tell anyone and everyone that asked about a Ron Thomas case that they should consider a GTF and why in emails and phone conversations and continues that practice to this day. Which is part of the reason he has sold so many GTF cases.

Now I am not quite clear where the problem is when a sales man asks customers to compare products or makes claims that what they sell is better than the competitor's products. Isn't this the job of the salesman to promote whatever it is that they want to push over that which they don't sell or don't want to promote?

You got good friends. Maybe you should go to Thailand with him.. you'ld be surprised what 37.50 American gets you....

JV

$37 dollars can buy a lot in Thailand, food, clothes, cues, art, massages, probably sex. What's your point? I have other friends who live in Thailand. Are you implying that there is something about Thailand that is bad? Roy took his longtime girlfriend with him on the trip he took. Together they enjoyed a very nice vacation while visiting another prominent American billiard industry luminary who lives part of the year there. Perhaps you wish to disparage him as well?

But I do have GREAT friends. Roy is one of them. A supplier can have no better dealer than Roy Malott. The guy tries to buy everything you make, never complains about the price, ships money the fastest way possible and works his ass off to promote your stuff. What better business relationship could I ask for?

But as a person Roy also has a heart of gold under his sometimes gruff exterior. I have seen him ship product to people for free how have suffered losses in order to help them pump back up. I have seen him donate extravagantly to charities, seen him be amazingly generous to my family and others.

I understand that you have your "issues" with him and that's your cross to bear. To me he is a great dealer and a better friend. And I am not the only one who knows Roy like this. So too bad that you don't and would rather carry a grudge. That's your choice.

Roy will be happy to answer the phone and talk to you any time and work out whatever the problem is.

 

[classiccues]

To point out the obvious you also make your living in part by "knocking off" the style and design of what are considered classic cue designs. Bit like the pot calling the kettle black don't you think? And no, Joe I am not saying that you make copies. You take the elements you like and recombine them into new arrangements. Pretty much what we do except that we strive to also build better cases as well.

Do I make knock off cues? No. I make no cues. I sell cues that are stylistically derived from cues of the golden age of cue making. I do not make a living doing this, it is an enjoyable hobby. BTW I have no issues with you knocking off anyones cases, by now we are all used to it. As its been said, as long as you mention the source of your inspiration, its really not a big deal. My issue with you, is you act like a butt hurt nit when someone says you knock items off and you defend it by saying well this guy does it, and that guy does it and you're just picking on me because I am in China.. etc.. etc.. etc.. When the reality is you should justify it in your own house without mentioning anyone else. Did I say cuedealer A, or cuedealer b, does it in my defense? No, I didn't because I can defend my own turf without needing anyone else to justify my position.

I know that you make statements about our work that you wish to be true Joe but in fact here are a bunch of threads showing off our creativity in both decoration and construction which are in direct contrast to your slurs.

I understand that you say that there are no well respected case makers in China. Since I am in China I guess that includes me. I think my customers have a different opinion Joe. Be that as it may since you chose to make that statement (innocently, as you claim) I offer up a list of the things we have done to stand in contrast to your assertions. I believe that our body of work in the past five years says plenty about what we do and how we do it.

Dude, we have pictures of you setting up shop in a facility known for case copying, and taking designs from everyone from Justis, to Whitten to Cyrex. You're body of work includes this also.

JV

 

[JB Cases]

Do I make knock off cues? No. I make no cues. I sell cues that are stylistically derived from cues of the golden age of cue making. I do not make a living doing this, it is an enjoyable hobby.

Ok, term it how you like. Derived, knocked off, copied etc...all aspects of the same activity, using someone else's work as a basis for your own.

BTW I have no issues with you knocking off anyones cases, by now we are all used to it.

Then why do you bring it up as if it's a problem? Just to be clear though I don't copy I build my own version of whatever design I am making and add in my own improvements. Improvements in my opinion that is.

As its been said, as long as you mention the source of your inspiration, its really not a big deal. My issue with you, is you act like a butt hurt nit when someone says you knock items off and you defend it by saying well this guy does it, and that guy does it and you're just picking on me because I am in China.. etc.. etc.. etc.. When the reality is you should justify it in your own house without mentioning anyone else. Did I say cuedealer A, or cuedealer b, does it in my defense? No, I didn't because I can defend my own turf without needing anyone else to justify my position.

No I said that you DO knock me for copying but you do NOT knock anyone else for it.

But as far as that goes I can mention anyone I want for any reason I want to. This thread was started to discuss Ron Thomas and his knocking off if It's George cases. I discussed that and you made it about me.

I am not justifying what I do because other people do it. I give my own reasons for doing what I do clearly and often. I just find it curious that you continue to call me a knockoff artist I guess in an attempt to insult me and yet you don't call Ron Thomas a knockoff artist or any other maker a knockoff artist who makes a case similar to what came before them. Seems like an awfully selective use of the term by you.

Dude, we have pictures of you setting up shop in a facility known for case copying, and taking designs from everyone from Justis, to Whitten to Cyrex. You're body of work includes this also.

JV

Yes it does. I am a sinner forgive me lord for I have consorted with copiers in my lifetime. And? What's your point? My efforts there were to get them to NOT copy and to learn to innovate which they did.

They put out fully tooled and painted ART cases a good year before Rex or anyone else did. And those cases were not only fully tooled and painted with scenery they were also done with construction techniques and elements never before done in cue cases.

That was in 2008. Then in 2012 they screwed up and knocked off, in the negative sense, two of Rex's masterpieces without my knowledge. As soon as I saw them I went nuts over it. I can't control them any more than you can control the people you know.

Did you condemn any well known case maker for making two replicas of the iconic Fellini tooled designs? Nope you didn't. But you are going to milk the mistake my friend made when his people riffed on Rex's work for all it's worth aren't you? Even though I had absolutely nothing to do with it that won't stop you from trying to pin it on me.

Do you blame Jack for all the copies that Long Chen has made over the past 20 years? Of course you don't. But you will grasp at any straw to knock me no matter how tenuous.

I understand your consuming hatred Joe. If I were in your position I'd hate me too and try every tactic to discredit me. So go ahead and get it all out of your system. I will answer every charge and every accusation honestly and in detail the way I always do it.

 

[classiccues]

Sure. If it's about me then I will tell my side of it and the readers can decide which is more credible. When I relate something I am not sure of I ask for corroboration.

No one can stop you from telling things you heard, nor stop you from outright lying. All that can be done outside of legal means is to answer the statements you make as best can be done. Sounds like you are leading up to telling a whopper so have at it..

Unlike you, when I cannot corroborate a story I usually don't feel the need to tell it. Even when I may not like that person.

Lots of people didn't know that Tommy was Engles at that time. But that doesn't matter because I wrote what needed to be written. I don't particularly care about Ron Thomas and whether you feel he was thrown under a bus or not. He was an ungrateful supplier and attempted to sabotage my business with Roy by issuing Roy and ultimatum to either stop purchasing my custom cases or be cut off. This on top of using Roy's money to build cases to take to the US Open and sell retail and then selling the remaining cases to Brianna at wholesale, leaving Roy without the cases he paid for in advance for another six months.

I did "out" Ron there but it was my choice and the way I feel about it is that Ron should never have gotten into my business. In retrospect I should have left it alone but it's done and while the wise course was to have left Ron out of it I am not going to apologize for it when the guy tried to harm my business. For no reason at all I want to add...

Its not uncommon for a supplier to ask a dealer to not carry competitors products. So if you feel that this somehow slighted you, your self esteem must really be poor. I would think that someone who deals with outside sources would be a little more understanding of how business works. You didn't out Ron, you told an outright lie, or your version of what you heard without doing any research, there is a difference, although I know you do not realize it.

Which is his pergoative. Engles cheated him. Thomas took a large deposit and left Roy hanging for six months while selling to other dealers. That said Roy removed the message about Thomas cases after a day anyway.

And? He was fully upfront about it and stated his reasons. So what? Someone else copies SW and you don't utter a peep. Roy does it and it's a federal crime? Roy is also part of the reason SW continues to enjoy such popularity as he has maintained a great archive for people to use as reference when ordering their SouthWest cues. Having sold so many over the years Roy has contributed to the ongoing public profile of the cues.

I happen to not agree with Roy copying SW as he did but I understand his reasons as I am sure you do not.

He did not do this knowingly. He took a small image with the words South and West done with a little glow that he found through an image search and used that. Had he know it came from your site he would have never used it. And you could have had it changed in five minutes by simply making him aware of the error. And in fact when I made him aware that you were very upset about it he DID change it in five minutes to the SouthWest cues logo....

Now the pattern starts to surface. You make excuses for his bad behavoir as you do your own. I don't think copying someones design is the issue, calling them what he did, and saying "Have a SW without the cost" have a "South West alternative" was the issue when it surfaced. Roy has ZERO to do with SW and them being popular. He went after them because they are an easy resale. They were popular before him and will be popular when he is dead. His archive is nice, but believe me, people know what they want before they get on the SW list.

The advice to COMPARE Ron Thomas with GTF before making a purchase was taken down because after some discussion Roy felt that he should not be negative towards Ron, especially considering that he had a pretty good stock of Thomas cases still in stock. However Roy did tell anyone and everyone that asked about a Ron Thomas case that they should consider a GTF and why in emails and phone conversations and continues that practice to this day. Which is part of the reason he has sold so many GTF cases.

All I'll say is that if I had a guy that called me everyday while I was recooperating from being beaten to within an inch of my life, I'd cut him some slack. But thats just me.

You're right, he is a man amongst boys, that is for sure.

JV

 

[classiccues]

Then why do you bring it up as if it's a problem? Just to be clear though I don't copy I build my own version of whatever design I am making and add in my own improvements. Improvements in my opinion that is..

I didn't bring it up as a problem. Just pointed it out.

No I said that you DO knock me for copying but you do NOT knock anyone else for it.

But as far as that goes I can mention anyone I want for any reason I want to. This thread was started to discuss Ron Thomas and his knocking off if It's George cases. I discussed that and you made it about me...

Here is where your total ignorance surfaces. The thread was started to ID a case, YOU took it as an opportunity to disparage Ron and then preceded to dish all the dirt you could on him. If you think that is why the thread was started than you are so in denial of your classless, opportunist ways to go after competition, its not even funny. This is why many people hate you. If you polled all the other casemakers they could give two sh*ts about JB Cases, its the JB part they cannot stand

I am not justifying what I do because other people do it. I give my own reasons for doing what I do clearly and often. I just find it curious that you continue to call me a knockoff artist I guess in an attempt to insult me and yet you don't call Ron Thomas a knockoff artist or any other maker a knockoff artist who makes a case similar to what came before them. Seems like an awfully selective use of the term by you....

John, again you are putting words in my mouth. Do you knock off other peoples designs, yes, did Ron knockoff a case design, yes. No one said anything differently. The issue here is your need to out someone that wasn't in the thread because YOU need to feel better about yourself. The difference here is Ron makes a tube case, he is as known for his tube case as Rob Hemphill, Centennial and Mike Roberts. You on the other hand are known for being a classless, loud mouthed baby who cannot stand on his own two feet and argue a point without bringing someone else into it. Look at everyone of your case arguements, or your dealer arguements, or when someone says Roy did this or that... YOU cannot help being like this. Try holding a debate without bring anyone else into it.

Yes it does. I am a sinner forgive me lord for I have consorted with copiers in my lifetime. And? What's your point? My efforts there were to get them to NOT copy and to learn to innovate which they did.....

So you say...

They put out fully tooled and painted ART cases a good year before Rex or anyone else did. And those cases were not only fully tooled and painted with scenery they were also done with construction techniques and elements never before done in cue cases......

Ironically these cases were NOT copied by any US casemakers.

That was in 2008. Then in 2012 they screwed up and knocked off, in the negative sense, two of Rex's masterpieces without my knowledge. As soon as I saw them I went nuts over it. I can't control them any more than you can control the people you know.

Did you condemn any well known case maker for making two replicas of the iconic Fellini tooled designs? Nope you didn't. But you are going to milk the mistake my friend made when his people riffed on Rex's work for all it's worth aren't you? Even though I had absolutely nothing to do with it that won't stop you from trying to pin it on me.

So say you again.

Do you blame Jack for all the copies that Long Chen has made over the past 20 years? Of course you don't. But you will grasp at any straw to knock me no matter how tenuous.

I understand your consuming hatred Joe. If I were in your position I'd hate me too and try every tactic to discredit me. So go ahead and get it all out of your system. I will answer every charge and every accusation honestly and in detail the way I always do it.

I don't need to try. I just need to start a debate and see how quickly you derail and bring up 99 things to muddy the water to divert actual facts about whatever the arguement is.

Again, this thread was about case ID, and look where YOU took it.

JV

 

[JB Cases]

Unlike you, when I cannot corroborate a story I usually don't feel the need to tell it. Even when I may not like that person.

Well you say that but it has not stopped you from telling stories in the past which you don't know the truth of. Nor does it stop you from speculating in accusatory ways that are clear to the reader that you believe what you are saying to be true although you have no possible way to know if it's true or not.

Its not uncommon for a supplier to ask a dealer to not carry competitors products. So if you feel that this somehow slighted you, your self esteem must really be poor.

You are really reaching here. But yes I feel it's a slight and it has nothing to do with self-esteem and everything to do with self-preservation. It's simple economics, if my competitor succeeds in getting my dealer to drop me then I lose money. So I do consider it to be an insult to attempt so blatantly to cause me financial loss. Had I done that to Mr. Thomas you would be singing a different tune. Oh wait, you ARE singing a different tune as in your attempts to get me banned for what? Slinging mud? Are you saying it's perfectly acceptable for Ron to make an attempt to have my products barred but it's not acceptable for me to say anything about him that you perceive to be negative?

What do you think that the possible consequences might be from the so-called mud-slinging? Do you think that it's possible you or Ron might lose a sale? Or do you simply find what you call mud-slinging to be simply distasteful? I ask because surely in your moral playbook actively seeking to financially harm a competitor has to be worse than simply talking bad about them.

I would think that someone who deals with outside sources would be a little more understanding of how business works. You didn't out Ron, you told an outright lie, or your version of what you heard without doing any research, there is a difference, although I know you do not realize it.

I did not tell a lie. I told a story as I heard it and asked for correction. You didn't correct me, no one corrected me. Asking for correction IS doing research. And in the end it turns out that Ron did in fact work with It's George in at least the capacity of discussing a partnership. I am going to go out on a limb and assume that they didn't get to that point based on meeting held at waffle house. Instead I am going to say that Ron had been to It's George's place several times, was familiar with how the cases were put together from start to finish, at least by observation, possibly talked numbers in the shop, maybe helped out at a show or two....something along those lines. So in the end I am going to say that I was partially right and without getting Mike Robert's version the other side will remain unknown at this point.

Now the pattern starts to surface. You make excuses for his bad behavoir as you do your own. I don't think copying someones design is the issue, calling them what he did, and saying "Have a SW without the cost" have a "South West alternative" was the issue when it surfaced. Roy has ZERO to do with SW and them being popular. He went after them because they are an easy resale. They were popular before him and will be popular when he is dead. His archive is nice, but believe me, people know what they want before they get on the SW list.

People don't know what they want. That's why Laurie calls them up to choose their woods long before the cue is started. Roy's site offers a great archive for people to see dozens of combinations.

Not making excuses Joe, just pointing out that your characterizations are false.

So what if Roy offered a cue that he advertised as a viable alternative to SW? That's between him and his customer. Wouldn't be the first person in history to say that their version of a product is better. Why do you care? There could be zero knock to SW's business from this not a single drop in orders since you claim SW's popularity is completely independent of Roy's work. There could be 500 companies out there claiming to be as good as SW and it wouldn't and shouldn't matter. So your problem is not the design copying but the claim?

Why?

All I'll say is that if I had a guy that called me everyday while I was recooperating from being beaten to within an inch of my life, I'd cut him some slack. But thats just me.

He did cut him some slack. Quite a bit as a matter of fact.

You're right, he is a man amongst boys, that is for sure.

JV

He is definitely a pro where you are a self-described hobbyist. I am positive that every single year of Roy's purchases from Ron Thomas have been more than you have done in the past five years. So you can say what you want but Roy is a buyer and he is a professional seller who gets it done.

Any more people like you in the business and the billiard industry would already be dead. More like Roy and it would be thriving.

Please don't forget to thank Ron for me though. His meddling in my business took me to places I woudn't have otherwise gone. I have now made some many great GTF cases thanks to him that I really do owe him something. For now let that be just my sincere thanks which I hope you will convey for me.

 

[JB Cases]

I didn't bring it up as a problem. Just pointed it out.

And consistently neglect to point it out when other makers do it. Not to mention that you are wrong when you attempt to use it against me anyway.

Here is where your total ignorance surfaces. The thread was started to ID a case, YOU took it as an opportunity to disparage Ron and then preceded to dish all the dirt you could on him. If you think that is why the thread was started than you are so in denial of your classless, opportunist ways to go after competition, its not even funny. This is why many people hate you. If you polled all the other casemakers they could give two sh*ts about JB Cases, its the JB part they cannot stand

And we were id'ing the case and talking about the maker. YOU made it about me instead.

If you haven't figured it out by now Joe I don't really care what you or anyone else thinks about me or my cases. I present my product as I wish to regardless of your opinion. None of the other case makers pay my bills so whether they like me or not is not something I worry about.

John, again you are putting words in my mouth. Do you knock off other peoples designs, yes, did Ron knockoff a case design, yes. No one said anything differently.

You did. NOW you say Ron knocked off It's George. Earlier you wouldn't admit it. Nor have you ever called Ron a knockoff artist or used the word knockoff in conjunction with Ron Thomas's work to my knowledge before now.

The issue here is your need to out someone that wasn't in the thread because YOU need to feel better about yourself.

Who? Ron? He isn't even on AZB and I wasn't the one who started the thread about a "well respected case maker who made knockoffs".

The difference here is Ron makes a tube case, he is as known for his tube case as Rob Hemphill, Centennial and Mike Roberts. You on the other hand are known for being a classless, loud mouthed baby who cannot stand on his own two feet and argue a point without bringing someone else into it. Look at everyone of your case arguements, or your dealer arguements, or when someone says Roy did this or that... YOU cannot help being like this. Try holding a debate without bring anyone else into it.

Name calling? I argue points using the answers that pertain to the point. If that means referencing someone else or their work then that is what happens. Did you bring me into this or not with your quip?

Tell the entire group that you did NOT aim your China comment squarely at me.

So you say...

Well the proof is in what they made after I got there. All easily provable. I brought not only the Masterpiece series to the USA in 2008 to the BCA show but also brought something like 40 new models of cue cases no one had ever seen before. All due to the fact that I asked Jiasen to hire some designers and think outside the box. And even now they continue to innovate.

Edit: I forgot that another AZB member can back me up on the timeline. Tim Hewitt, a dealer from Charlotte, was the first person to display the new cases at the APA Cities event in 2008. Myself and Mattt Carter delivered the cases to Tim and he can confirm the massive amount of NEW models we showed to everyone that weekend. We asked Tim to gather feedback from his customers and he did.

Ironically these cases were NOT copied by any US casemakers.

And what's your point? The owner of Jiasen did not know that his people were copying Rex's work. He runs a factory with more than 100 people. The art-case shop runs pretty much independently with the instructions to do cool stuff. They present their ideas to the owner and don't tell him if they took those ideas from some other case maker. The owner is not familiar with the work of every other maker to the point that he instantly knows who did what by the decoration. But then you, sitting in New Jersey, know more about this than me here in China.

NOW, after this thing with Rex, he has instructed his people NOT to copy any other case maker's work and to show him where any design "inspiration" comes from to be sure he is not copying other case maker's designs. Don't believe me but I have two AZ'ers as witnesses who were there when I went to Shanghai for the express purpose of letting the owner know how awful this is, one of whom acted as my interpreter. I made it very clear that this type of thing should NEVER happen and he promised us that it would not happen again. The person who interpreted for me is Jive Ong. Jive's integrity on this forum is without question.

So say you again.

And again you persist in trying to turn your speculation into truth and you condemn me for telling a story I heard from a long time veteran of the industry. Interesting concept. I am not allowed to relate things I hear but you are allowed to make up stories and act as though they are true.

I don't need to try. I just need to start a debate and see how quickly you derail and bring up 99 things to muddy the water to divert actual facts about whatever the arguement is.

You're the one that made this about me with your China quip.

Again, this thread was about case ID, and look where YOU took it.

JV

I was only talking about Ron Thomas, the maker of the case. You made it about me.

 

[rjb1168]

I have no dog in this crap but I must say your like for one another is compared to an exwife and the new girlfriend. Get a grip guy's.

 

[Chopdoc]

I have no dog in this crap but I must say your like for one another is compared to an exwife and the new girlfriend. Get a grip guy's.

Are you saying this looks like a girl fight?






:grin:


.

 

[JB Cases]

I have no dog in this crap but I must say your like for one another is compared to an exwife and the new girlfriend. Get a grip guy's.

Are you saying this looks like a girl fight?
.

Girl fights are much more entertaining. This thread is actually a pretty good example of why protection matters with a sprinkling of cattiness thrown in by Joe.

But the end result is that we have a good discussion on protection with a prime example. AND I get to do an experiment and see if my product really is as good as I think it is.

 

[JB Cases]

Girl fights are much more entertaining. This thread is actually a pretty good example of why protection matters with a sprinkling of cattiness thrown in by Joe.

But the end result is that we have a good discussion on protection with a prime example. AND I get to do an experiment and see if my product really is as good as I think it is.

Oops wrong thread. Hard to keep
up on two fronts.
www.jbcases.com

 

[Realizm]

I like it ,, knock or not ..

 

[classiccues]

I was only talking about Ron Thomas, the maker of the case. You made it about me.

No one made this about you. Except you. My comment was based strictly on the Chinese business practices that are prevalent in the way they conduct business. Now if you think it was directed only at you, then there is something to be said for a guilty conscious.

JV

 

[JB Cases]

No one made this about you. Except you. My comment was based strictly on the Chinese business practices that are prevalent in the way they conduct business. Now if you think it was directed only at you, then there is something to be said for a guilty conscious.

JV

Ok Joe, if you would like us to believe that then we will try to.

Just to be clear you are saying that there are NO well respected case makers in China?