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CaptiveBred said:
Yes sir, I am well aware of this. I keep telling myself "someday." And I must be crazy, because I believe that.
Thank you.
UPA Sanctioning - Q&A
- Thread starter UPA President
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Yes sir, I am well aware of this. I keep telling myself "someday." And I must be crazy, because I believe that.
Thank you.
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smashmouth said:
Sir, I can't say that I quite understand my "not stepping up." I would think that if there were anyone standing up right now, it would be myself along with players.
Respectfully...
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UPA President said:
I have not been kind to the BCA with the direction they have taken in the last 15 years. I am a critic of how the BCA has mismanaged the industry through it's annual trade show and I have been a critic of how the BCA has mismanaged the sport of pool during my time as a member of the industry and a player.
However it would be fair to note that the BCA was instrumental in supporting the formation of the WPA. Without the BCA the WPA would likely not exist today.
In truth the BCA system is broken. The UPA system is broken.
I have no idea where AZ Billiards fits in with their ranking system but I also feel on the surface that this is not something that should be within their scope. Nor do I feel that something like the Billiard Digest's Ranking system should be used either.
We all know that what we need to rank professional players is a professional tour for them to play on. In the absence of such a tour then the ad hoc collection of tournaments that the UPA calls it's "tour" will have to do but we all accept that the rank list is by no means a true reflection of the strongest professional level players in the United States.
However, as long as the BCA, as the North American member of the WPA, is granted the right to determine WHO it will send to WPA sanctioned events then it is their right to rank and invite players as they choose to, within whatever guidelines the WPA has set forth on this matter.
The UPA is NOT a member of the WPA. The BCA chose to allow the UPA to essentially pick the participants of WPA events based on it's rank list. That is within the BCA's right to allow a third party to assemble the list of players from which to choose representatives for WPA events.
Now, all that being said, it is a pretty rotten thing for the BCA to act in this manner without trying to come to a resolution behind closed doors.
I feel as if AZ Billiards, consisting of Mike Howerton and Jerry Forsyth, should not be taking an active role in this dispute. AZ has emerged as a great source of reporting in the billiard community and a great destination for thousands of people daily. As such AZ is attractive to advertisers and it would suck if AZ became embroiled in the midst of something that they should be perhaps only reporting on.
NOTE: All this is said ONLY as an outside observer with NO, NONE, NADA inside information of any kind. I just want us all to get along.
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Tom In Cincy said:
1. No, not one $1. However it is possible that Mr. Williams (1st UPA President) could have. however I do not have knowledge of this.
2. For 5 years the BCA granted a $1k subsidy to players for the Wold 9-Ball event. When I became president I asked for more and pointed out that the cost of travel has increased in the last 5 years. There was an increase of $300 for each player.
CaptiveBred said:
This assumes that the UPA has the funds to actually cover this event. I would be willing to bet that the UPA as an organization does not have that much in their accounts or even if they have more than one account. Just another reflection on the weak state of pool overall.
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JB Cases said:
Hello Sir,
I will try to respond to a few points.
1. Please know that it is my position (along with our board) that the BCA is much needed and valuable to our industry. This being said, the BCA can only lack in the area of player issues because it does not have the expertise, knowledge, or for that matter, true desire.
2. Regarding the BCA's membership to the WPA, this is very tricky topic. The membership to the WPA is a fee that the UPA could come up with if only its petition to membership would even be acknowledged... As you may or may not know. The BCA is the ONLY member to the WPA (the whole world included) that has nothing to do with a sports/player association.
3. It is not my position (and never will be) that the UPA is perfect. However, like any growing association we learn, adapt, evolve, with the ongoing intent to benefit the players. This is our stated goal and purpose.
I hope this helps a little... perhaps too little. I will try better with my next reply.
Regards.
UPA President said:
Frank you know me so we don't need to do the Mr. Alvarez and Mr. Barton thing.
The reason that the WPA will not include the UPA as a member is that the WPA would not exist were it not for the support and funding it received from the BCA during it's formation. It is not simply about a membership fee. The WPA has a mandate that does not include only professional players but is there for the well being of billiard sports at all levels.
The WPA is the glue that ties (or at least this is their goal) all of the organizations that concern pocket billiards or pool around the world. As such it can only reasonably work with one main body per continent.
The UPA represents the male professional pool player. You do not represent the amateur player. You are on the same level as the WPBA when it comes to the WPA - IF you want something from the WPA then you have to get through the WPA's North American member, the BCA. That's how it is.
If the UPA members do not want to be considered for events sanctioned by the WPA then that it clearly their choice. As we know there are other paths to WPA events. Promoter wildcard spots, special invitations, qualifiers, and so on. But the UPA should not hold itself as a higher entity than the one who is directly responsible for the existence of the group you are appealing to.
For me the jury is still out on the BCA's value to our industry. My views on this are well known. However I believe in people like Ivan Lee and I hear that Rob Johnson is doing some positive things. Time will tell if any of their efforts bear fruit.
As to the UPA being perfect, no one suggested that it is. In fact we discussing it's imperfections now.
It is my position however that IF your organization were to take a hard line regarding the major impetus for your formation, prize fund guarantees, that you would find that promoters would come to the table with that obligation satisfied. But to do things like threaten to stage competing events if the promoters do not comply is what drives people away. Your assets are the players and as long as you allow a player organization to be so dissolute then it's pretty much a stretch to call it an organization at all.
UPA President said:
Frank, to put it simply. The BCA does own / pay for the right for the WPA rankings/ placing N. American Contingents into the WPA. It was never a Freebee to anyone. I am not sure but I heard the fee was $10,000 per year. They pay for it so they can do what they want with it.
I'm not sure how I got to this position of defending the BCA but the Truth is the Truth. so if the UPA didn't pay for it but the BCA did then t is absolutely correct that it was loaned to you. And just as if I loaned you my car and you did not take care of it I won't let you borrow it anymore because I will take care of it better. Whether I do or not does not matter because it's my car and that's how I feel.
I also do not want to sell you may car as an anology that the BCA does not want to sell it's rights to the WPA.
Now, regarding the Truth. Your agenda states:
UPA Current Agenda
To provide unsurpassed levels of leadership, guidance, and organization that will benefit professional pool players in the United States through a published schedule of events complete with tournament promotion, guaranteed prize funds, and a fair and uniform ranking system.
You made it perfectly clear to me in an earlier discussions the GUARANTEED PRIZE FUNDS are only an agenda item and not a policy.
In that same agenda you mention: LEADERSHIP, GUIDANCE, ORGANIZATION, SCHEDULE OF EVENTS, TOURNAMENT PROMOTION and RANKING SYSTEMS.
It has really been bothering me. Since these are just agenda items. UPA AGENDA = things the UPA intends to do in the future. What exactly does the UPA do for anybody now or in the past? Is there an exact policy ?
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JB Cases said:
Hello John,
I did not know it was you. I don't know how I was supposed to know this. Nonetheless, I hope you are well.
1. I was unaware that the BCA helped form or found the WPA. I will do a little homework in this area. This could explain why they don't entertain others.
2. The issue here is a matter of perspective. We all say we want to help pool in the U.S. However when I share my ideas, and you share yours, and the next person, etc. We then begin to disagree on the various ideas that we came to the table with. This then causes us to go in different directions and thus we find ourselves at odds. The WPA says, we want whats best for U.S. pool thus the BCA is our member. The UPA says, we want whats best for U.S. pool thus we try to create a tour and seek to help the "stars" of the game. Needless to say we don't quite meet in the middle. Thus the debates begin.
3. The UPA debate is really no different than the actors guild debate or the baseball player's union debate. Who's right? Should players govern themselves? Should the industry tell them what to do? Some land on one side, others land on the opposing side. Obviously it is the UPA's position that a player should govern the issues that directly involve the player.
4. I too believe in the Mr. Lee and Mr. Johnson. I think they are excellent at what they have been called to do. However that calling is not to manage the affairs of players. To give a silly but affective analogy, I believe that a nascar race driver is great at nascar racing, but I would not trust him to defend the U.S. as a fighter pilot.
5. In regards to your last point. There are plenty of things that the UPA could do better.
Respectfully...
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MikeJanis said:
1. I believe you are correct concerning the fee. As far as them doing whatever they want with it (membership benefits). Well, this is the debate. Can they? Or should they? Can someone do something about this? Should someone do something about this?
2. Mr. Janis, it currently benefits you to defend the BCA. This is no industry secret.
3. Well for 1, Mr. Janis, the UPA granted the right to players to govern themselves within the industry. I know that this does not mean much to you personally, but to our members it is the very thing that affects their lives. It did in the past, it does today, and it most certainly will in the future.
If the UPA did nothing else, this would be more than enough.
Respectfully...
UPA President said:
Re: #1 - Ok we are in agreement.
Re: #2 - Tell me whats not a secret Frank. You know as well as I do I was turned down on my proposal by the BCA and they wouldn't even nominate me to run for the board. Don't talk crap, I'm just as peeved at them as anyone. frank, before this fiasco with the UPA/BCA/WPA and before I learned more about the UPA, you guys, the UPA were my next stop.
Re: #3 - Are you stating the players can not govern themselves as players and thats all the UPA is for?
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UPA President said:Hello John,
I did not know it was you. I don't know how I was supposed to know this. Nonetheless, I hope you are well.
1. I was unaware that the BCA helped form or found the WPA. I will do a little homework in this area. This could explain why they don't entertain others.
It seems that would be warranted.
2. The issue here is a matter of perspective. We all say we want to help pool in the U.S. However when I share my ideas, and you share yours, and the next person, etc. We then begin to disagree on the various ideas that we came to the table with. This then causes us to go in different directions and thus we find ourselves at odds. The WPA says, we want whats best for U.S. pool thus the BCA is our member. The UPA says, we want whats best for U.S. pool thus we try to create a tour and seek to help the "stars" of the game. Needless say we don't quite meet in the middle. Thus the debates begin.
This is a mostly correct generalization. However it fails to address the specifics of the situation. The WPA does not say it wants the best for United States pool. The WPA wants to provide a unified face of global pool. It relies on the United States member the BCA to attend to the health of pool in the USA and provide qualified players to WPA events. The UPA is there for the professionals in the game, not the amateurs. What IF an amateur player were the best player in the United States? Should that player not be allowed to play in the World Pool Association's world championships? Why is it that only the UPA is qualified to determine who the best players are because they stage and sanction events? When you say the players you don't represent all the players. I submit that Jesse Bowman is every bit as qualified to play in the 8-ball world championships as any UPA player yet if one were to go by your rank list he would never be chosen to represent the USA and would have to avail himself of the other opportunities to gain participation.
And that's fine as long as the BCA uses the UPA list to determine who is qualified and who is not. The BCA is saying to Jesse Bowman that he needs to prove himself against the UPA's players in order to get ranked and garner the invites. But IF the BCA chooses a different direction then that is their right to do so.
Someone else here pointed out that this forum has an incredible amount of collective knowledge. That is so true. This forum has people in from every strata of life, people from every conceivable profession, people who have seen life from every angle both in and out of pool.
The UPA and all the other acronym organizations have successfully ignored the opportunity to use this incredible resource to their detriment. Not only do you get qualified information on any subject you need information on you have a ton of people who would gladly volunteer some of their time to your cause if your cause is what the majority agree is the right way to go.
This does not have to be a debate or a fight - unless one side is convinced it is absolutely right despite what the majority thinks. In that situation you are either absolutely right or totally wrong.
3. The UPA debate is really no different than the actors guild debate or the baseball player's union debate. Who's right? Should players govern themselves? Should the industry tell them what to do? Some land on one side, others land on the opposing side. Obviously it is the UPA's position that a player should govern the issues that directly involve the player.
Like all unions there will always be debates between management (promoters) and workers (players). I don't know. On one hand you ask the industry to sponsor you but you don't want the industry to tell you what to do. Give me money and I will get back to you on whether it was spent in a good way or not........ You see Frank, you don't have a product to sell. You are like a troupe of great dancers with no choreography, no show. You are actors without a gig. If you want to manage the player's affairs then you need to create the platform for the players to perform. Because the old adage of the "golden" rule applies, he who has the gold makes the rules.
So until you have the "gold", that being a product that people want to buy, then you can't make the rules. If I were to stage a tournament and get UPA sanctioning can you guarantee me Efren and Johnny and Rodney? Of course you can't. However the PGA and the WTA have very strict guidelines on reasons to skip a tournament and conflicting events don't count.
4. I too believe in the Mr. Lee and Mr. Johnson. I think they are excellent at what they have been called to do. However that calling is not to manage the affairs of players. To give a silly but affective analogy, I believe that a nascar race driver is great at nascar racing, but I would not trust him to defend the U.S. as a fighter pilot.
You're right it's a silly analogy. To give you a better one, who is better at building the jet, the organization that is full of people who understand physics and mechanics or the jet pilot? Without the organization there is nothing for the pilot to fly. I also don't think that the BCA should be managing professional players and that is not what they are doing. They are responsible for determining who gets the allocated spots in WPA events. I would hope that a group of successful businesspeople who chose a group of talented employees could figure out how to do that. It seems that the UPA was pleased with the BCA's handling of this task when it chose to follow the UPA's guidance on this task. Now however, not surprisingly, you are calling into question the BCA's judgement when their choice for this task is no longer the UPA.
5. In regards to your last point. There are plenty of things that the UPA could better.
Respectfully...
Of course there are. That is obvious, if for nothing else than this thread being proof of it. As I said above however, you can can take advantage of the brain trust here and the fan's who would love to be involved or you can remain aloof and adversarial.
I don't think that the UPA can afford the latter choice personally.
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MikeJanis said:
#2. I think it is as someone stated in another post, "you have a dog in this hunt." I apologize if I offended you. However as two different tour directors it is a truth we must live with.
#3. Top players are who they are because they have committed themselves to the mastery of physical objects. What's amazing about your sport is that each of these masters' personality actually shows in their style of play (another post). My point is that they are not savvy to the political issues, or agends, or ongoings, etc. Thus, this is what I hear:
What do we do? What can we do? How do we do that? How does this affect us? What happened to our tour? What happened to my points? etc.
It is the UPA's, "job" to educate the player and defend the player. The players know they do not have the respect of the industry. They know that they are treated off the table with complete disrespect. And what has happened is a the best example of this. In a matter of one day, a player's life was completely changed, in that they no longer had the right or the ablity to govern their rules, formats, rankings, sanctioning guideliness, tour control, etc. They weren't even alotted a phone call, or email, or meeting. Here is a perfect qoute:
"I am insulted that this decision was made without consulting the touring professionals that will be directly affected by the change or the organization that represents us. The UPA has always looked out for our interests here in the United States where we live and compete in the majority of our events. I think the decision should be left up to us and our player association."
Charlie "Hillbilly" Bryant
Furthermore, when I state that the UPA is here to allow a player to govern themselves, we then also go to the point of seeking to better their livelyhood. Here is where the other items come into play.
Respectfully...
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MikeJanis said:
Mike,
Are you a voting member of the BCA? I mean is your company a voting member?
I do not understand how you could not be allowed to run for the board. This seems awfully shady to me.
I know nothing of the BCA's bylaws but I always assumed that any voting member in good standing could be nominated for and run for the board of directors.
I think it's a travesty that you were not even allowed to run. Amazing what assholes people can be.
I say, screw them all. Get on board with the people who have the real power in this industry. The players and the room owners. Every bar with leagues and pool players in it is your target.
I am in your corner and will gladly donate some of my time to help you where I can. Go and build the broadest base you can and the BCA/UPA/ABCDEFGYTII groups will be begging you to align with them.
Start with the local weekly tournaments and build from there. Get them to fund a spot every four weeks into a larger regional event. Build it city by city.
WHO HERE IS WITH ME IN HELPING MIKE JANIS BUILD THIS?????/
ARE you ALL tired of reading the same old political crap year after year on AZ?????
Wouldn't you rather read about how your friends and buddies are doing as pool players and about the success stories?
IF YOU ARE SINCERE IN YOUR DESIRE TO PROMOTE POOL THEN LET'S DO THIS ON A LOCAL LEVEL AND FORGET ALL THE *****ING ABOUT WHO "GOVERNS" POOL.
I nominate Mike Janis for first president of this new anti-organization organization.
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JB Cases said:
John,
It would seem that our one or two points simply turn into a 100 point debate. If you and I don't believe in the basic premise of the UPA, it is most likely we will not agree in all 99 points/issues that follow.
Not being used to this forum or setting. I look at all the red in your post and have flashbacks of my academic dean in college. I don't even know if I'm supposed qoute, reply to the red, start a new post,etc. Outside of just not having the energy right now. I figured its easier to just buy you a cup of coffee and listen to what you have to say.
My point in posting for the first time in 6 years was to show courtesy and help answer a few questions. It seems it would be very easy to get off point here.
Take me up on the coffee...
Respectfully.
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UPA President said:
The UPA should focus on building a true tour in the USA that doesn't depend on the industry. Then the industry will come calling and you can charge what you want. This starts with each and every event that has a UPA "sanction" being truly sanctified with ironclad guaranteed prize funds.
UPA President said:
Sorry, red is a way to distinguish my answers from yours.
I understand that you are dealing with two major issues right now, the shortage of prize funds and the rankings.
My apologies for taking up your time this way. It is a discussion forum after all.
I believe in the UPA's premise. I think we all do. 99% of the people on this forum want to see professional pool players thrive and professional pool as accepted as other sports. The other 1% are trolls and don't count
We are also all privy through the vast amount of experienced people here to most of the issues on both sides of most topics that the UPA, BCA, IPT, and so on have gone through.
We, as a group, have little sympathy however for two type of people and organizations, those that are bullies and those that won't help themselves.
I guarantee you that a lot of us feel that the UPA is something of both. I also guarantee you that YOU WILL find a lot of support here if you know how to ask for it and are willing and able to act on it.
Anytime Frank on the coffee. Where are we at on Chess? I think you are a game up right. We should play internet chess by email. I think I still have the program somewhere - I will email it to you if I find it.
Good luck with the things you are dealing with. Right or wrong it's still a lot to fade.
John
UPA President said:
What? The BCA is outsourcing the ranking of American players to a vendor or subcontractor? What?
This doesn't seem quite right to me. The BCA outsources and/or subcontracts the BCA Open as well. What does the BCA do for professional pool, aside from providing a once-a-year invitational tournament that they subcontract out?
UPA, ALL THE WAY.
USA, ALL THE WAY.
SUPPORT AMERICAN PROS
UPA, ALL THE WAY!
JAM