Uppers

[chefjeff]

This was quoted from your first post. I replied that you must be talking about methamphetamine, because that is the main form of 'uppers' used by pool players who stay up all day and night playing. Now do you see where my impression of you came from?

I was replying to the post about uppers and I made the comment about one of the uppers, meth, that IS used for good outcomes and I gave an example of that. I also posted links that show that millions of people have used them without long-term harm.

People on this board started agreeing with my side, and you changed your stance. You have not repeated what you said from your first post, now you say that what you actually meant from that is just to have knowledge of this drug? You are really starting to confuse me.

Good. Confusion means that you're trying to understand, but still have some muck plugging up the thoughts. AGAIN someone else said I was pushing knowledge and I clarified it in a post after that...reread that post.

Jeff, do you advocate the occasional use of meth, yes or no? My impression was that you say yes, now I don't know what to think because you are constantly changing.

Ah, THE question for you. I do not advocate using meth or NOT using meth. I advocate using one's mind in an honest way to determine one's actions. Moral actions are those that are "good for me;" immoral actions are those that are "bad for me." Any consicous being can chose either one at this moment. Whether or not meth is used is up to the individual, hopefully fully cognizant of the risks and benefits.

Any "lies" I have used are merely examples and speculations used to make a point, which you obviously missed. Noting the benefits of the occasional use of a hardcore drug like meth, you are copying what addicts do before they become addicted. I've already explained this- they try the drug, they like the drug, and they think they can control it if they use it occasionally, and they like the drug so much they desperatly try to find excuses why using it occasionally is good, such as "I've got to stay up all night and study for this exam.."etc. Every addicts says what you are saying. That is my point, as I said before

.

That is Monday morning quarterbacking, though. To look at ONLY those hooked on meth, is to miss the whole picture. Sure they lied to themselves and it cost them dearly. It is sad and unnecessary and I feel sorry for them and hate it when they mess with me.

Everything I have said about the drug is completely accurate and you cannot refute it because you have presented ONE SINGLE SOURCE with ONE SINGLE PERSON'S OPINION that states something different. The rest of the world agrees with me Jeff

.

I've already refuted your statements several times, so I won't waste my time again. And I don't care if the rest of the world (another lie) agrees with you; that others agree doesn't make it so. That type of argument is not logical.

Jeff Livingston

 

[chefjeff]

Just because you listen to him on the radio makes him sane? There are a ton of whackos on the radio, and the main reason why they have jobs on the radio is BECAUSE they are wackos and what they say makes people angry and causes controversy.

So what lies are you referring to in the drug war? That heroin is not all that bad? Or that meth is not all that bad? I am asking you for once to be straightforward and honest with your opinion, so I want you to answer these questions YES or NO.

Do you believe meth usage is ok?
Do you believe the meth drug epidemic is nothing to worry about?
Do you believe heroin is not that bad of a drug?
Do you believe meth is not that bad of a drug?

You have really confused me because you don't seem to have a clear point to be made. When I ask a question you tend to beat around the bush and say that you meant something other than what you already said.

Until you learn to think honestly and actually read what I've written in response to your concerns, this discussion will continue to go nowhere. But I'll try one last time.

No, I don't believe meth useage is ok....for me and lots of others, too.
I do believe that the meth drug "epidemic" is something to worry about....but by whom and why and when and most importantly, I worry about the violent reactions to it by the powers that be.
You last two questions imply a judgment, "bad," that requires more details before I can answer them. Herion can kill. Meth can kill. Herion can make life doable. Meth can make certains actions beneficial. Meth can kill. Herion can kill. Meth can kill.

You think I'm evading questions?...I'm attempting to integrate principles and this leads to the rational answers. That you've missed this, is something that I cannot control, anymore than I can control your emotions.

What lies in the drug war?!? you cannot be serious....wait, I suppose you can If you are serious about this then this discussion will take a turn and last a lot longer. I don't know if AZ is the place to discuss the "drug" war in detail, but I will if you want. But recognize it is very dangerous territory...is the benefit worth the cost?

Jeff Livingston

 

[bogey54311]

lol

if you guys had any idea how many pro's got high before playing, and you looked down on drug use, you would have a few less heros in the pool world. believe me. ive seen it. some of the biggest names in the game. dont ask who....i wont tell.

chris

 

[chefjeff]

here we go.

LastTwo, is clearly scarred from his personal account of how his friends went down the toilet because of meth, and other stories that he was witness to.
That is why he clings to his ideals in this thread.
He is very passionate about it.

chefjeff is CLEARLY not saying "HEY ALL WANNABE POOL PLAYERS, GO OUT AND SCORE SOME METH AND YOU TOO CAN BE A WORLD CHAMPION." He is mearly stating a fact, that by the use of stimulants, by the very mechanisms of their actions (increased alertness, ability to focus more, more energy and less fatigue) that in certain situations, Stimulants CAN BE USEFUL! Whether it is for pilots, truckers that have to stay awake, or pool players trying to up their game, their use definitely has an individual purpose in some instances. (which is a matter of personal choice)
That does not mean he is saying to go try them out. He addressed the question asked of him, and answered it.

(snip)

Them surviving that initial choice, is up to them!

Thanks for reading what I wrote and thinking about it without scatoma-like emotions interfering with your thoughts. Your post took courage to make in today's environment of anti-drug violence.

Now you will probably get slandered, misquoted, and basically put down for being rational....such is life.

Jeff Livingston

 

[chefjeff]

Government statistics say that over 100,000 people a year a killed by the PROPER use of properly prescribed prescription drugs. That does not count accidental overdose or abuse of any kind by the Rush Limbaughs of the hypocrite world. Please do not imply to people that prescription medicines or those related street drugs are safe, especially antidepressants which are known to cause suicidal behavior. Take some vitamins and minerals and get some sleep once in a while.

unknownpro

Right on. Using the distinction of legal or illegal is illogical and potentially harmful. And so is the distinction between prescription and non-prescription. These distinctions are artificial, as far as what is good for the individual.

Guess how they handled the users of the most deadly drug in the world during the WPBA in Peoria...they simply put a sign on the door that said: "No smoking in the pool room." Nobody got shot, put in a cage, dissed...just civilized people acting peacefully. Wow, what a concept!

Jeff Livingston

 

[chefjeff]

if you guys had any idea how many pro's got high before playing, and you looked down on drug use, you would have a few less heros in the pool world. believe me. ive seen it. some of the biggest names in the game. dont ask who....i wont tell.

chris

I don't want names, but you seem to have inside knowledge of this...so could I ask you to relate how those users are doing with their games and with their lives overall? This would be of benefit to players here, I'd think.

Jeff Livingston

 

[DaveK]

Uhh, actually, you did piss him off from what I read. You do have that ability and reading some of your strange posts on drugs kind of pissed me off too. For example quoting some nut doctor who would rather have his kid a heroin addict than an alcoholic is a good example of how nuts some people can be and someone finding some sense in this is nuts too. What parent would even consider either of those options for their kid unless they were crazy? As if either one had any redeeming qualities. I wonder if he would prefer his son was a mass murderer rather than a serial rapist. It is about as logical. Try not to quote some nut as if he is an authority if he makes retarded comparisons like this. Also, dont quote people who have a vested interest in pushing a drug as if they were an authority.

Wayne

OK Wayne, you may have misunderstood a few things. First, did CJ piss off LT ? No. Did what CJ wrote cause LT to become pissed off ? Yes, but it was always within the control of LT. I believe that what was said by CJ was essentially that "one controls their own emotions". If you need additional insight, just imagine a couple of people you may know. The first person is one who can be 'set-off' quite easily, the kind of person who you must be cautious around. The second person is a very laid-back mellow person, one that you can say anything to and they don't get upset. Put CJ in front of the two of them, let him speak his mind, and watch the reactions.

Regarding the doctor and his/her comments about alchohol and heroin, I'd speculate that he was speaking from a medical standpoint. Your arguements are based on social values, which are greatly affected by the laws passed by your government. Cocaine (btw, is it a legal drug or an illegal drug ? ) used to be quite a commonly used medication and recreational drug, with nowhere near the social issues that it has today. It became an 'evil' drug because our culture changed and the government passed additional laws. It is still today being used as a legal local anesthetic. I know of one local ear-nose-throat specialist who uses it in his practice, and my daughter who just completed her pharmatech diploma was already mixed up cocaine eye drops during her practicum ! It just depends on how you view things.

Dave

 

[SUPERSTAR]

You haven't read all my posts in this thread. I am not talking about prescriptions. I am talking about meth from the street that can be injected, snorted, and smoked. Thanks.

No, I AM talking about meth from the street, that is COOKED from ephedrine, and pseudoephedrine cold pills.

The only difference between over the counter pharmaceutical grade meth (DESOXYN) and street crank is the % content. Pharmacy grade meth is cleaner in that aspect. And you can crush and inject pharmacy pills by the way.

Instead of criticizing the effect of meth, and how it destroys lives and is the scourge of this world, you should be talking about the idiots who decide to try it in the first place, and can't handle it. It's not meths fault, it is THEIRS.
METH didn't ruin the lives that you speak of. Those people ruined it themselves.
and YES the lawyer gets his meth from the street. He does not get pills from a pharmacy, or off the black market.

 

[SUPERSTAR]

Thanks for reading what I wrote and thinking about it without scatoma-like emotions interfering with your thoughts. Your post took courage to make in today's environment of anti-drug violence.

Now you will probably get slandered, misquoted, and basically put down for being rational....such is life.

Jeff Livingston

Well, i know about 30 doctors (psychiatrists) whos protocol includes the stimulant drug group. I also have access to literature ABOUT all the drug they deal with.
So i have a lot of information at my disposal, which makes it easy to see the facts, and not get all bent out of shape cause someone i know went down the drain due to drugs.

The only problem that happens as a result, is that some people feel that it is impossible for a person to have knowledge about drugs, without having first hand experience. So one gets labeled as an abuser by the people that don't have that knowledge. It's their way of dealing with the fact that you know more than them, and them losing the argument.

 

[Purdman]

No, I AM talking about meth from the street, that is COOKED from ephedrine, and pseudoephedrine cold pills.

The only difference between over the counter pharmaceutical grade meth (DESOXYN) and street crank is the % content. Pharmacy grade meth is cleaner in that aspect. And you can crush and inject pharmacy pills by the way.

Instead of criticizing the effect of meth, and how it destroys lives and is the scourge of this world, you should be talking about the idiots who decide to try it in the first place, and can't handle it. It's not meths fault, it is THEIRS.
METH didn't ruin the lives that you speak of. Those people ruined it themselves.
and YES the lawyer gets his meth from the street. He does not get pills from a pharmacy, or off the black market.

The Desoxyn you have mentioned use to be in plastic pill form. You could soak the meth out of them and inject. Pills were yellow and then white after soaking. I have been there. Back in the 70's it was quite common. I, like many others, was a drug abuser from 66 to 78. I have been clean for 27 years. I have never met anybody that didn't crash and burn with regular meth use. I am one of the fortunate ones. I never got strung out or OD'ed.
Many of my friends did. My advice to all of you is LEAVE IT ALONE.
I will also tell you that I would rather have my son (27) smoke weed than drink alcohol. It is the better choice IMHO. So good luck to all you chippers and be careful with that crap. We don't want to lose you.
Purdman

 

[wayne]

Again, I did not piss you off; YOU pissed off yourself after reading my posts. For example, you could have decided to not be pissed and instead chosen to remain objective and non-emotional, dove deeper into the subject and come out of it with a different thought, just as some here did. Right? Just like you don't have to be pissed when someone sharks you at the table...you can chose your emotional responses.

Jeff Livingston

No, Jeff, you pissed me off. I chose that emotional response and it was my decision that you pissed me off. Let me ask you, if someone comes up to your girlfriend (or boyfriend) and spits in their face would you get pissed off? Did the person spitting in your friends face piss you off or did you piss yourself off? LOL. Please don't bother to answer it is just a rhetorical question anyway.

Wayne

 

[wayne]

OK Wayne, you may have misunderstood a few things. First, did CJ piss off LT ? No. Did what CJ wrote cause LT to become pissed off ? Yes, but it was always within the control of LT. I believe that what was said by CJ was essentially that "one controls their own emotions".

Dave

Thank you Dave for explaining this to me. If I control my own emotions can I can control my own decisions also? Can I decide to be pissed off at CJ because of what he said? Can LT decide to be pissed off at Chef for what he said? Now if no one is a hypocrite then it is OK to be pissed off at anyone we want. Therefore, I submit that (based on my decision and emotions) that Chef pissed me off and he probably pissed Last TWO off also.

Thank you for allowing me my own decisions and emotions. LOL

Wayne

 

[wayne]

and as far as ANTIDEPRESSANTS are concerned. Yes, some of them have been linked to suicide, but you are also dealing with people that are DEPRESSED TO BEGIN WITH! They kill themselves at a higher rate than normal ANYWAY!

Vitamins and minerals? You sound like TOM CRUISE and his whole scientology crap.

What rock are you living under? The fact that the pharmaceutical industry is a trillion (yes that is a TRILLION) dollar industry and they are pushing ANTIDEPRESSANTS at an unprecedented rate trying to get every man, woman and child hooked by having their failed lackeys (psychiatrists) dream up more and more disorders and get them prescribing drugs to hook children from birth to death. TOM CRUISE has the balls to stand up and make the lies known despite the knowledge he will be attacked relentlessly for it, he was willing to do it to help educate the public to this fraud. The future will prove him and others who are trying to prevent this fraud from continuing as helpers of mankind. I for one started researching this psychiatric fraud after hearing what he had to say and was startled to find how much corruption and coverups were involved in pushing this TRILLION dollar industry.

Just the fact that almost all of the kids who did the mass killings like Littleton and many others were on psychiatric drugs or under psychiatric care should give people great concerns especially because of the cover up involved. To excuse it as "oh they were depressed anyway" is the sign of an idiot. People get depressed all the time but they don't go around blowing people away or chopping up their family.

Wayne

 

[LastTwo]

So far the argument superstar and CJ are presenting is: 'If it helps one person but hurts 100,000 then it's ok'

Please spare me the examples of the one in 100,000 who doesn't get destroyed by meth. Oh lets not forget. "It's not meth's fault!" Well no shit lol, it's the people who make it who are to blame. I am addicted to cigarettes, do I blame myself or the tobacco industry? I blame myself, BUT, I can't rule out the fact that when I was younger some adds for different cigarettes ABSOLOUTELY did entice me to want to try certain types of cigarettes. The tobacco industry has always known that cigarettes are addictive. So do the creaters of meth. You blame the person for trying the drug, but you can't blame them for getting addicted, as that lies in the chemical compounds of the drug, and any living human being no matter how resistent to addiction they are, if given enough of a meth or nicotine most definately will get addicted.

Superstar your statement about only blaming the user is so stupid I have to give you this analogy: A man catches the AIDS virus after having unprotected sex. The man later dies from the AIDS virus. It was the mains fault for catching the virus, and it was the virus that killed him. After he caught the AIDS virus, what happened to him after that was out of his control. You cannot blame him for the effects of the AIDS virus, only contracting it. Therefore it is someone's fault for trying an addictive drug, and when they do become addicted it is the same thing as a disease, because not only are they psychologically dependent on it, they become physically dependent, because their own chemical makeup has been changed to allow the drug to bond itself. When that bond is weakened, i.e. when they run out of the drug or havent taken any for a few hours, they experience withdrawal, which is a living hell, and they always have to go back to the drug.

Addiction is a disease, and SUPERSTAR, just because I understand the effects of the drug socially doesn't mean that's all I know about it. I am a full time college student and for the past four semesters I have taken Addiction Studies courses as part of my requirement for a job when I get my bachelors degree.

 

[LastTwo]

Until you learn to think honestly and actually read what I've written in response to your concerns, this discussion will continue to go nowhere. But I'll try one last time.

No, I don't believe meth useage is ok....for me and lots of others, too.
I do believe that the meth drug "epidemic" is something to worry about....but by whom and why and when and most importantly, I worry about the violent reactions to it by the powers that be.
You last two questions imply a judgment, "bad," that requires more details before I can answer them. Herion can kill. Meth can kill. Herion can make life doable. Meth can make certains actions beneficial. Meth can kill. Herion can kill. Meth can kill.

You think I'm evading questions?...I'm attempting to integrate principles and this leads to the rational answers. That you've missed this, is something that I cannot control, anymore than I can control your emotions.

What lies in the drug war?!? you cannot be serious....wait, I suppose you can If you are serious about this then this discussion will take a turn and last a lot longer. I don't know if AZ is the place to discuss the "drug" war in detail, but I will if you want. But recognize it is very dangerous territory...is the benefit worth the cost?

Jeff Livingston

If you were trying to integrate principles on something like pot I would understand, but there are just too many meth addicts in the world and all around us for the point you made in your first post to be valid.

You are not changing your stance from your first post, and if that's the case then I can't argue with you either, because from what you have just said I agree with you for the most part. I haven't changed my stance at all, so either you have or there has been a misunderstanding, which I highly doubt. And you haven't really clarified anything, I am still confused about what you stand for.

 

[chefjeff]

Thank you Dave for explaining this to me. If I control my own emotions can I can control my own decisions also? Can I decide to be pissed off at CJ because of what he said? Can LT decide to be pissed off at Chef for what he said? Now if no one is a hypocrite then it is OK to be pissed off at anyone we want. Therefore, I submit that (based on my decision and emotions) that Chef pissed me off and he probably pissed Last TWO off also.

Thank you for allowing me my own decisions and emotions. LOL

Wayne

This thread is great....on one hand it is said that a person canNOT control his emotions enough to stay off harmful drugs; on the other, a person CAN control the emotions of OTHERS.

ohhhhh...

Jeff Livingston

 

[wayne]

This thread is great....on one hand it is said that a person canNOT control his emotions enough to stay off harmful drugs; on the other, a person CAN control the emotions of OTHERS.

ohhhhh...

Jeff Livingston

Jeff I forgive you for any of your stupid remarks, I just read that you are an 8 ball player.

Wayne

 

[Purdman]

Jeff I forgive you for any of your stupid remarks, I just read that you are an 8 ball player.

Wayne

I don't really care what you all do as long as you don't kill yourself with CRANK!!!!!!!
Your buddy, Purdman

 

[SUPERSTAR]

What rock are you living under?

I'm living under a rock called REALITY! You should try it sometime.
Depressed people kill themselves, and happy people don't. So just based on that, depressed people try antidepressants, which may or may not work, and some that it does not work for....kill themselves. What is so hard to understand about that?

and you are admitting that you are a scientologist right?!

To give yourself to a cult mentality, is the stupidest thing you can do. Heck, if i had the choice to be brainwashed, or to give meth a try, i think i'd have to try meth out.
Just look at Tom Cruise. You really think that because he gives the Church of Scientology a few bucks to get read by a $12.50 E-meter, that he's the role model for america cause he thinks it works?? If you say so.

So what if there was 1 or 2 headlines allegedly due to a drug.
Your dismissing the possibility that the people involved in the crime, might very well have wanted to kill everyone to begin with, and THAT is why they were messed up in the head, and been checked into therapy in the first place. To say that the crime was the drugs fault, can never be proven. PERIOD. Where it was well noted, that the kids had history of mental issues.

Do you know how many crimes are commited due to alcohol?, and you actually have the nerve to try and argue the point that a drug that has had only a few headlines, is worse?

And what cover up are you talkling about? Please, tell us all you know, so that we can understand your perspective.

Have you ever seen someone who is severely depressed? If so, how many?

can't wait to hear this stuff.

 

[onepocketchump]

There is nothing rational about taking illegal drugs. Either you do or you don't. If you do, in my book you're a loser.

Chris

Really? What about the guy who is on Ritalin for ADD? Just because it's "legal" when prescribed and illegal when not doesn't make the use of it any different. The effect is the same.

People self-medicate all the time in various ways for various reasons. To label the ones who do it "illegally" as losers is kind of short-sighted in my opinion.

I guarantee you that if someone close to you had some kind of illness where they needed some kind of drug that wasn't available to them by prescription then you would do anything to get it and wouldn't think of yourself or them as losers.

If two people are gambling and they don't have any restriction on drugs then each person is pretty much free to do what they want to. Most sports organizations have some sort of drug policy that bans the use of any drugs considered performance enhancing.

I guarantee you that if I need to stay awake then I am going to take whatever I can to do it. Energy drinks, No-Doze, or even speed. I absolutely hate speed, hate the way I feel on it and hate the come down. What I don't hate is getting my job done and being productive when I should be productive. So sometimes I will rely on mother's little helper, but try to avoid the need when I can.

I certainly don't feel like a loser and perhaps you should try not to think of me as one either based on my personal choices for myself.

John