USA vs Europe: past, present, and future

[mikepage]

Couple questions
(1) How many US players are there with Fargo Rating at or above the rating of the 20th European player?
(2) How about same question 5 years ago?
(3) How about same question 5 years from now?
answers:
(1) 5 including Gorst; 4 without him
(2) 4
(3) ?
While we don't know the answer to (3), neither are we blind. Below are the European and US players at the recent World Junior competition. These players are 18 years old and younger. Above 700, there are 10 from Europe and 2 from US. At first blush, this is about what is expected from the trend (or lack of trend) over the last 5 years.
What you can't see here, though, is the US has really done amazing things developing junior players in recent years. And so has Europe. The tide has been rising. It is a mistake to use whether the US beats Europe in the Mosconi Cup as some sort of barometer for the health of our sport.

 

[BasementDweller]

Hmmm.

Pretty sure it was Adrian Prasad I watched not too long ago and he was pretty impressive BUT the current Fargo ratings of this group puts them on par with good regional players. Just based on the trajectories, it would appear they are more closely following the Tyler Styer progression than that of an actual world class player. That's the trouble with the Mosconi, we don't just need the US to produce good pros but world class ones. Maybe one of them will prove me wrong. Adrian looked like he had the game.

 

[BasementDweller]

To Mike:
Any chance you have enough Mosconi data to show FR performance for just the M Cup?

 

[iusedtoberich]

Joey Tate has about reached his potential. He’s fully grown, not a 12 year old. His father was about that level 20 years ago. He was on the Joss tour regularly. The apple doesn’t fall far from the tree.

The others on the list are probably similar, if they are over 16.

Imo.

 

[iusedtoberich]

There are many father son teams where the kid got to approx the same level as dad, even though the kid was basically born with a cue in his hand.

 

[iusedtoberich]

You need to be 700 speed at about 14-15 years old to become a world class pro at 18. Corey, Archer, Shane, all the top USA guys were like that.

Same with Taiwan, Philippines, etc.

 

[iusedtoberich]

Show us the same numbers for 14 year olds. If any 14 year old are near 700 USA might have a chance.

 

[BasementDweller]

Where stuck in a limbo state in the US.

The good kid who goes to school and works on his game a couple hours a day and plays a couple tourneys a month -- WILL not cut it. This is where the "good kid" model doesn't work in the US since we don't have the infrastructure for it.

The only model that really works is the pool bum. I know that sounds harsh and there's probably a better term but these good kids are competing against international players that either have built in structural advantages OR they are TOTALLY immersed in the gambling culture like in the Philippines.

We're stuck in between and in the pool world -- nice kids finish last.

 

[Nick B]

Where stuck in a limbo state in the US.

The good kid who goes to school and works on his game a couple hours a day and plays a couple tourneys a month -- WILL not cut it. This is where the "good kid" model doesn't work in the US since we don't have the infrastructure for it.

The only model that really works is the pool bum. I know that sounds harsh and there's probably a better term but these good kids are competing against international players that either have built in structural advantages OR they are TOTALLY immersed in the gambling culture like in the Philippines.

We're stuck in between and in the pool world -- nice kids finish last.

For sure. Half way gets you nowhere (from a World-Class perspective). It's like the millions of girls who take ballet class. Regional amongst the best doesn't get you to New York or London.

 

[Justaneng]

Where stuck in a limbo state in the US.

The good kid who goes to school and works on his game a couple hours a day and plays a couple tourneys a month -- WILL not cut it. This is where the "good kid" model doesn't work in the US since we don't have the infrastructure for it.

The only model that really works is the pool bum. I know that sounds harsh and there's probably a better term but these good kids are competing against international players that either have built in structural advantages OR they are TOTALLY immersed in the gambling culture like in the Philippines.

We're stuck in between and in the pool world -- nice kids finish last.

If pool borrows the model from other endeavors where the mid-tiers don’t really make money, than we can designate one city as the hub that the Fargo 700 kids flock to and grow their game.

Example: Aspiring standup comedians from all over the country will converge on NYC or LA to “grow their game” against each other, because you just can’t do that based out of Des Moines, IA. The aspiring comedian will room with 4 other aspiring comedians, grab day jobs, and as a result spend a whole lot of time surrounded by people who share their same craft while being able to sustain themselves.

The major metros are probably too expensive, but say we designate Omaha as the place to go for the 18-25 year olds move to and try to grow their game. Social media can set them up with few other pool players to split an apartment with. Sharing living costs, they wouldn’t need “career level” jobs to sustain themselves, being an Amazon delivery driver works just fine, and they wouldn’t waste their weeknights and non-tournament days being the big fish in a small pond in rural Idaho, the local halls would be filled with 700 talent on a Wednesday and they can grow their game with zero travel cost.

 

[BasementDweller]

If pool borrows the model from other endeavors where the mid-tiers don’t really make money, than we can designate one city as the hub that the Fargo 700 kids flock to and grow their game.

Example: Aspiring standup comedians from all over the country will converge on NYC or LA to “grow their game” against each other, because you just can’t do that based out of Des Moines, IA. The aspiring comedian will room with 4 other aspiring comedians, grab day jobs, and as a result spend a whole lot of time surrounded by people who share their same craft while being able to sustain themselves.

The major metros are probably too expensive, but say we designate Omaha as the place to go for the 18-25 year olds move to and try to grow their game. Social media can set them up with few other pool players to split an apartment with. Sharing living costs, they wouldn’t need “career level” jobs to sustain themselves, being an Amazon delivery driver works just fine, and they wouldn’t waste their weeknights and non-tournament days being the big fish in a small pond in rural Idaho, the local halls would be filled with 700 talent on a Wednesday and they can grow their game with zero travel cost.

Not bad. The problem is the necessity of starting at such a young age. I don't know what the exact number of hours would be and it would certainly vary from player to player, but let's say you need to be at least halfway to 10,000 hours BEFORE you hit 16 to have a realistic chance at reaching a world class level. That's where your vision/narrative falls apart. Moving somewhere to do this when you're 18, 19, or 20 when pool already has world class 18 year olds competing isn't going to cut it.

SVB has really masked the true decline of US professional pool. He was just the perfect collection of personality traits and personal attributes needed to become elite. Being a deaf, athletic, introvert that was born into a pool family may have been the perfect recipe, and one that we won't be able to duplicate any time soon.

I don't know. Maybe the answer will be found in the Billard Clubs that are starting to spring up -- like TinMan has done in Minneapolis. Maybe they could start some sort of affliation and create their own competitions. I do think the days of dropping out of school to hit the road are behind us but that's closer to what most of the previous champions did.

 

[iusedtoberich]

It does not take 10,000 hrs. Corey started about age 14 and by the time he was 16 he was nationally known as a champion. Same with Archer. You either have the genetics for it and develop very quickly, or you don’t.

 

[camaro69926]

My son will read this post and it will drive him even more. He already practices about 4 hours Monday - Friday and plays in tournaments all weekend. He practices on a 9' table with 4" pockets (diamond from the US Open). It seems that Fargo is behind on a lot of junior players. We do not have a lot of tournaments that report to Fargo in our area. Most of these junior players shoot about 30 points higher than their Fargo, because they still have scores reporting from when they were 14.

 

[iusedtoberich]

My son will read this post and it will drive him even more. He already practices about 4 hours Monday - Friday and plays in tournaments all weekend. He practices on a 9' table with 4" pockets (diamond from the US Open). It seems that Fargo is behind on a lot of junior players. We do not have a lot of tournaments that report to Fargo in our area. Most of these junior players shoot about 30 points higher than their Fargo, because they still have scores reporting from when they were 14.

Yes. It lags kids growing up. And it leads seniors coming down.

 

[Justaneng]

Not bad. The problem is the necessity of starting at such a young age. I don't know what the exact number of hours would be and it would certainly vary from player to player, but let's say you need to be at least halfway to 10,000 hours BEFORE you hit 16 to have a realistic chance at reaching a world class level. That's where your vision falls apart. Moving somewhere to do this when you're 18, 19, or 20 when pool already has world class 18 year olds competing isn't going to cut it.

SVB has really masked the true decline of US professional pool. He was just the perfect collection of personality traits and personal attributes needed to become elite. Being a deaf, athletic, introvert that was born into a pool family may have been the perfect recipe, and one that we won't be able to duplicate any time soon.

I don't know. Maybe the answer will be found in the Billard Clubs that are starting to spring up -- like TinMan has done in Minneapolis. Maybe they could start some sort of affliation and create their own competitions. I do think the days of dropping out of school to hit the road are behind us but that's closer to what most of the previous champions did.

So….start dosing pool room owners’ coffee with fertility drugs?

 

[smiling_Hans]

That's the thing.... is it worth it to put a kid through this when there are other things they can spend better time at?

Now I know why my parents dislike my pool playing days in my early 20's. I was pretty good and would win tournaments. Would bring up with my pops and I can tell he doesn't want to hear about it.

As an adult now I can see why....it was a huge waste of time and thankfully I got over the aspirations of making money playing pool and glad my peers got out too. Everyone has careers now.

Pool is for the young that are learning the game or old timers who are retired. Any age group in between should play casually. Don't forget something call work and making money.

Even social leagues are not to be taken seriously. So you win a trip to Vegas? You are either light years ahead of everyone because nobody should be practicing for hours on end for a trip to Vegas.

I no longer "practice". I only play in tournaments to get my fix. That is my "practice".

 

[BasementDweller]

It does not take 10,000 hrs. Corey started about age 14 and by the time he was 16 he was nationally known as a champion. Same with Archer. You either have the genetics for it and develop very quickly, or you don’t.

If only it was that simple. When it comes to world class play, it's not either or, it's both. You're natural talent won't allow you to keep up with a SVB or Dennis Orcullo who is miles past 10,000 hours.

 

[iusedtoberich]

If only it was that simple. When it comes to world class play, it's not either or, it's both. You're natural talent won't allow you to keep up with a SVB or Dennis Orcullo who is miles past 10,000 hours.

Agree you need the work. 2 years of 6 hrs per day after school, no weekends, is 3100 hrs. Corey did it in that. He was at my home pool room in Philly.

I do think with Fargo we could have “height charts” like at the drs office when a kid.

You could look up kids age and Fargo and get a trajectory where they will top out.

The Eurotour match with Filler when he was 12 or so, he was already 700 at that match.

 

[iusedtoberich]

I also think with Fargo you can get the genetic line. Father and son.

All the locals I know of father son, the kid got maybe a hair better than the dad’s peak. If the dad was a local star, the same with the kid. If the dad was a middle speed, the same with the kid.

 

[iusedtoberich]

So….start dosing pool room owners’ coffee with fertility drugs?

Only if they were former pros! Ha ha