Using "Center Ball" - is it good advice or a hidden disadvantage?

[boogieman]

You will get a better feel from. your shots with a "Touch" of inside or outside. Remember, you should play the game with the edge of your tip, not the center, like hitting something with your fist, you want to use your first two knuckles, not the flat fist......the smaller, harder area makes more precise contact with the cueball and the ball with move around the table easier. (a masse shot is a good example of what the edge will do as far as spin is concerned).

Interesting, so sort of related, is the "level cue" thing is just something they tell us dummies starting out? I've always been skeptical of the "level cue" dialog. It might work on most shots and less user created error, but on some shots you have to spin it really doesn't work how you imagine without stroking the ball correctly. I notice when I get in dead stroke it can feel like I'm slightly swiping the cue ball on some shots, not really swiping but it's definitely the edges of the tip contacting the CB, kind of like a minuscule pivot. The ol CB behaves like it's on a string. It makes sense if I'm understanding it right (similar to masse effects). Essentially you're making the contact point smaller so it's like you're using a "smaller tip" in a way. Purposely doing TOI with the top edge of the tip would surely have a good effect.

I guess it's also why some of the pros strokes look so pretty, they aren't robot straight level stroking if you know what I mean.

I know in one of the Monk books he says about breaking 8 ball to approach the ball like you were putting one tip of draw on it but stroking upward, let he who has eyes see (contrary to the level cue crowd). I completely lost my break after my hiatus and this little advice instantly got me heading in the right direction. I'm still working out the kinks but it really gets the 8 ball rack splattering, the ball pops up an couple inches and lands near the center most times. My break is much better but I still have a lot of work to put in.

 

[CJ Wiley]

Interesting, so sort of related, is the "level cue" thing is just something they tell us dummies starting out? I've always been skeptical of the "level cue" dialog. It might work on most shots and less user created error, but on some shots you have to spin it really doesn't work how you imagine without stroking the ball correctly. I notice when I get in dead stroke it can feel like I'm slightly swiping the cue ball on some shots, not really swiping but it's definitely the edges of the tip contacting the CB, kind of like a minuscule pivot. The ol CB behaves like it's on a string. It makes sense if I'm understanding it right (similar to masse effects). Essentially you're making the contact point smaller so it's like you're using a "smaller tip" in a way. Purposely doing TOI with the top edge of the tip would surely have a good effect.

I guess it's also why some of the pros strokes look so pretty, they aren't robot straight level stroking if you know what I mean.

I know in one of the Monk books he says about breaking 8 ball to approach the ball like you were putting one tip of draw on it but stroking upward, let he who has eyes see (contrary to the level cue crowd). I completely lost my break after my hiatus and this little advice instantly got me heading in the right direction. I'm still working out the kinks but it really gets the 8 ball rack splattering, the ball pops up an couple inches and lands near the center most times. My break is much better but I still have a lot of work to put in.

Yes, for beginners it doesn't matter that much, but at the champion level you'll see they have an angle to their cue. All the Filipinos do this technique exceptionally well, Bustemante cues a couple inches Before the cueball and has impressive precision at impact.

Remember, when you want to follow the ball you use the bottom edge and angle the cue slightly up (unless it's a force follow shot). The road players used to call this "Pinning" the shots, it makes a more piercing sound, especially when the cloth isn't fast you increase your shot speed.

The level cue, loose grip and extended follow through is three things that are commonly taught, but you'll notice the champions have an angle to their cue, hold the cue more firmly and limit their follow through. Shane Vanboening, SKY and Jeffrey DeLuna are all great players to watch.....to me it used to look like Buddy Hall held the cue loosely, but when I ask him he said this wasn't the case. Same with Dennis Orcollo, of course on fitness shots and when he wants to exaggerate the after-contact-reaction of the cueball. He told me he holds it firmly with his index finger and thumb......don't misunderstand I'm NOT saying to grip it tightly, I use the pressure to hammer nails as an example. The fingers and wrist is what gives the cue a "POP" at impact, just like throwing a ball, the wrist/fingers release at the last possible instant to give you the best results.

 

[garczar]

Yes, for beginners it doesn't matter that much, but at the champion level you'll see they have an angle to their cue. All the Filipinos do this technique exceptionally well, Bustemante cues a couple inches Before the cueball and has impressive precision at impact.

Remember, when you want to follow the ball you use the bottom edge and angle the cue slightly up (unless it's a force follow shot). The road players used to call this "Pinning" the shots, it makes a more piercing sound, especially when the cloth isn't fast you increase your shot speed.

The level cue, loose grip and extended follow through is three things that are commonly taught, but you'll notice the champions have an angle to their cue, hold the cue more firmly and limit their follow through. Shane Vanboening, SKY and Jeffrey DeLuna are all great players to watch.....to me it used to look like Buddy Hall held the cue loosely, but when I ask him he said this wasn't the case. Same with Dennis Orcollo, of course on fitness shots and when he wants to exaggerate the after-contact-reaction of the cueball. He told me he holds it firmly with his index finger and thumb......don't misunderstand I'm NOT saying to grip it tightly, I use the pressure to hammer nails as an example. The fingers and wrist is what gives the cue a "POP" at impact, just like throwing a ball, the wrist/fingers release at the last possible instant to give you the best results.

Some of the best $$ players i ever saw had quite a bit more downward angle with their cue as opposed to the 'ideal' level cue. And you're dead-on about Buddy. I asked him one day about his grip and he said 'firm', not loosey-goosey and not tight. He also used what i'd call a fist-grip, his whole hand held the cue.

 

[straightline]

Nope. How much or how little side is exactly the same variable as how far left or right of center - and it has the same consequences: your cue ball will go right or left of where you intend it to go. Limiting your tip/ball contact to one side doesn't change that - it's a perceptual slight of hand.

You got me there , but not about this.

pj
chgo

"Sleight" of hand. Which dun that mean actual magic? ...

 

[CJ Wiley]

Some of the best $$ players i ever saw had quite a bit more downward angle with their cue as opposed to the 'ideal' level cue. And you're dead-on about Buddy. I asked him one day about his grip and he said 'firm', not loosey-goosey and not tight. He also used what i'd call a fist-grip, his whole hand held the cue.

I've said several times that the champion players are NOT doing what most people think, and your point is a great example, Earl Strickland told me he used a "death grip" when he was in dead stroke......I notice Shane appears to grip the cue tighter when he hits the Zone. When these things are pointed out specifically, they can be seen, if not, they are like marked cards, you can only see them if you know where they're at.

Yes, there are a few reasons not to use a level cue, another is that it causes the maximum deflection. There are shots when I do it on purpose like the inside English shots when you have to go three rails around the table. This sets up perfect for the level cue, and when you do this you have to aim at the EXACT same spot on the object ball as you're hitting on the cue ball. This will seem odd and it's the only example of this I've experienced, it makes the perfect adjustment for the deflection and spin automatically!

 

[boogieman]

Yes, for beginners it doesn't matter that much, but at the champion level you'll see they have an angle to their cue. All the Filipinos do this technique exceptionally well, Bustemante cues a couple inches Before the cueball and has impressive precision at impact.

Remember, when you want to follow the ball you use the bottom edge and angle the cue slightly up (unless it's a force follow shot). The road players used to call this "Pinning" the shots, it makes a more piercing sound, especially when the cloth isn't fast you increase your shot speed.

The level cue, loose grip and extended follow through is three things that are commonly taught, but you'll notice the champions have an angle to their cue, hold the cue more firmly and limit their follow through. Shane Vanboening, SKY and Jeffrey DeLuna are all great players to watch.....to me it used to look like Buddy Hall held the cue loosely, but when I ask him he said this wasn't the case. Same with Dennis Orcollo, of course on fitness shots and when he wants to exaggerate the after-contact-reaction of the cueball. He told me he holds it firmly with his index finger and thumb......don't misunderstand I'm NOT saying to grip it tightly, I use the pressure to hammer nails as an example. The fingers and wrist is what gives the cue a "POP" at impact, just like throwing a ball, the wrist/fingers release at the last possible instant to give you the best results.

CJ, just that little nugget about using the sides of the tip and how a knuckle hitting really hit home with me. I've been shooting on the table for the last 2 hours and wow. As I said before, if I get in dead stroke, I think I'm doing this automagically. The point was, I wasn't trying to do TOI as I probably need to watch your videos to really get it, but I was trying to use the edge of the tip on ALL shots just to try it. Just trying to play around you know. I think I'm starting to understand how those pesky 9 ball players get so much action on the ball. Since getting back into playing, I've struggled with actually getting my dang CB to actually stop dead. Hitting center ball with the top of my tip stops it dead. It gives a clear target and a smaller contact area. If we pretend the tip and the CB are both metal/glass spheres, there should be a pinpoint contact area. This is forcing the pinpoint where you can easily judge where it is, instead of hidden in a 12.5mm diameter where you might be off in up, down, left, right or combinations of them, not to mention it might be flatter.

I've always thought a cue should be held super lightly, but I did notice I was naturally holding it tighter, not a death grip or anything, but basically at the point of contact. Like you said, like a hammer when you pop the nail, or like an axe when you contact the log. You're muscles are loose but at that moment of contact they contract just a bit.

I've honestly never really trusted the dead level cue idea because I know when I'm in stroke, it's never level and never hitting the center of my tip. As soon as I started thinking I might be getting a little wild, I try to go back to "basics" with a dead level stroke. This usually results in me going out of stroke and sucking until I forget this "cornerstone" knowledge and let my stroke out a little more. I just knew I must be wrong because all the instructors say dead level stroke. I should have trusted what worked for me on the table. Using the edge of the tip just makes sense.

 

[straightline]

On death grip: It seems the minuses become pluses as your delivery straightens out; as it might during the course of a successful session or sessions.

 

[CJ Wiley]

On death grip: It seems the minuses become pluses as your delivery straightens out; as it might during the course of a successful session or sessions.

Grip pressure ends up being a personal preference, and I do recommend experimenting with yours. A very loose grip can overcome several different types of flaws in a player's stroke, especially elbow placement oriented. Also, if a player has trouble with long, draw shots or moving the cueball around effortlessly they may want to try holding the cue more firmly. Bustemante holds the cue lightly while doing his practice strokes, but he told me in Monroe Louisiana that tightens at impact (not with pure finesse type shots). If anyone has ever tried to bunt a baseball on a cold day with a loose grip they know what happens. In pool this doesn't happen that dramatically, although transferring energy from your cue to the cue ball is still an important factor.

I like to experiment playing with a tighter grip for many reasons that I can get to later, there's too many players stuck on believing they need to hold the cue lightly, my suggestion is to not be closed minded and don't be afraid to experiment so you know what works best for sure.

 

[boogieman]

I like to experiment playing with a tighter grip for many reasons that I can get to later, there's too many players stuck on believing they need to hold the cue lightly, my suggestion is to not be closed minded and don't be afraid to experiment so you know what works best for sure.

You just described me to a tee. I've always believed holding the cue lightly was the best, as it's the thing that started getting results when I first played. Again, last nights 2 hour experiment led me to believe a tighter grip also imparts more spin. It kind of naturally tightened for me when I was using the edge of the tip. I think I'm kind of at a crossroads where beginner knowledge (or what they teach in many books) isn't really the bees knees anymore. I guess I've been kind of dumb about it as I know when I'm in dead stroke, all that stuff goes out the window anyway. I guess I need to shut my left brain the hell up and trust what works.

I guess that's the thing, the textbook level stroke works and probably eliminates errors in beginner players, same as limiting side spin until you get natural angles and follow/draw down. Once you get to a certain point (not everybody I suppose but some people) it just limits you artificially. Level strokes obviously still have a place in anyone's game, but trying level strokes on 90+% of shots is probably a sucker's game.

I freaking love pool, just when you think you have something figured out, you realize how dumb you've been Here's to many more such realizations of my own stupidity!

 

[magnetardo]

Deflection isn't needed for that (or any) shot. Sounds like you're accustomed to aiming it that way, but you'd quickly learn how with an LD cue too.

Each shot boils down to one thing: the force you apply to the cue ball. If the force you apply to the cue ball is identical, you get identical results - and (assuming they're angled correctly for squirt) the force is identical with either kind

Deflection isn't needed for that (or any) shot. Sounds like you're accustomed to aiming it that way, but you'd quickly learn how with an LD cue too.

Each shot boils down to one thing: the force you apply to the cue ball. If the force you apply to the cue ball is identical, you get identical results - and (assuming they're angled correctly for squirt) the force is identical with either kind of shaft.

pj
chgo

What the cue makers call deflection is actually cue ball squirt, and you need to.change the angle of approach from the cue ball to the object ball for the shot I referenced. You just can't get that kind of movement with a predator. I believe Bert went over this shot in his very first video. Deflection is a big part of the game.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

...you need to.change the angle of approach from the cue ball to the object ball for the shot I referenced.

You change the angle of the cue in order to deliver the same force to the cue ball in the same direction. The same force in the same direction propels the cue ball on the same path to the object ball.

You just can't get that kind of movement with a predator.

Only the directional force delivered by the cue to the cue ball matters to the outcome. What do you think prevents a Predator from duplicating the directional force of another cue?

pj
chgo

 

[ChrisinNC]

It's just what I get from CJ's explanation and my own epiphanies. Grey area for sure but it just makes sense. The thing about error from center is it's very easy to get into unfavorable spin. IOW if you're aiming with visible inside, it's not likely you'll end up with outside. With your finest center hit, you have left and right catastrophe zon

okay i will chime in here. cj is right that doing it his way does give you a bigger pocket if you miss by a small amount on where you hit the cue ball. similar to a golfer with a slice that utilizes the left side of the fairway for a right hander.

but where it fails to work is if you miss the spot on the object ball you need to hit. and weaker players will do that more often, as better players meaning top players will miss that spot rarely.
to hit that spot exactly all things must come together. and that is tough. it is much easier to hit the exact spot you are aiming at on the cueball than it is to hit the exact spot on the object ball. so by favoring one side of a pocket you effectively make that side much smaller, so your hit on the object ball that is off will be more devastating to you than the benefit of having a little better room on the other side.

back to the golfer. he now has a bigger fairway. a top pro golfer will have that whole fairway now to play with. an average golfer will sometimes pull his shot, miss hit it by aiming to far left, or actually giving his ball a little hook once in a while. now those things become devastating as he loses his ball in the woods.

Basically the cue ball is the primary target.

When we try to hit center there are three things that can happen:

1) We aim at the exact center and the cueball goes exactly straight (this isn't possible 100% even for the greatest players)
2) We aim at the center and hit it slightly to the left, which makes the cueball deflect to the right slightly.
3) We aim at the center and hit it slightly to the right, which makes the cueball deflect to the left slightly.

So there's 3 different factors, and unless we are perfect this will be true (I definitely didn't design my game to try and be perfect)

So if we decide to cue the ball slightly to the inside, there are two things that can happen:

1) We aim a touch to the left of the cueball's center and the cueball deflects slightly to the right.
2) We aim the cueball a touch to the left and hit it slightly farther to the left......the cueball still deflects to the right slightly
3) We aim the cueball slightly to the left and hit slightly to the right, WE STILL HIT THE CENTER, so there's no 3rd variable.

So when we develop a foundation of aiming slightly to the inside (or outside with spin) we only have two variables instead of 3.

This is the basics, and some food for thought. There is a lot more concerning how we use this to increase our pocket zone by targeting the side of the pocket closest to the object ball. This enables a ZONE to be created and we have a much larger "bail out area" (golf term" in the pocket.

Remember, to create a zone we can not try to hit, kick or throw a ball straight. This is why golfers fade or draw the golf ball, tennis players usually use topspin, slice or an America Twist and baseball pitchers will have a consistent movement to their fast balls, curses and drop balls.

I can explain this technique in a lot of detail, however, in writing it's challenging without a solid referential index to go by. This is why I use a pool table to demonstrate, explain and describe all the variables that apply and how the TOUCH OF INSIDE system enhances your game physically, mentally and emotionally......the confidence I have playing long sessions using the TOI speaks for itself, over time it gets better and better.

My Touch of Inside video section on my website is 90 minutes and shows exactly how this is done, I'd recommend watching it 3-5 times to pick up all the information, your mind will learn it in levels, it's not possible to pick it up all at once and 3 hours of practice is recommended using ONLY the Touch of Inside to start to open up your mind to how powerful this system is.....it's not an aiming system, it's an overall playing system!

The Game is the Teacher

CJ, in all due respect, how does this touch of inside system work in situations where you need to apply a touch of outside to get the cue ball to go where you need it to go for position on the next shot?

 

[RunEmOut08]

CJ, in all due respect, how does this touch of inside system work in situations where you need to apply outside spin to get the cue ball to go where you need it to go for position on the next shot?

I have been practicing a few hours using the TOI. What I can say in the couple days if practicing is that this is my hardest piece to work out. I think my ball pocketing is better, but position isn’t easy yet. Balls that would possibly bobble on me before are going in because of the spin going into the pocket which is nice! The other issue I’m having is because I’m using a cynergy shaft I don’t think I get as much squirt on a short stun shot to compensate for the CIT. I plan on keeping at it though because I can see potential with it on a significant number of shots but I’m not sure about using it 100% of the time.

I am also hoping to work with CJ in person soon to really dig into this and his other knowledge!

 

[magnetardo]

You change the angle of the cue in order to deliver the same force to the cue ball in the same direction. The same force in the same direction propels the cue ball on the same path to the object ball.

Only the directional force delivered by the cue to the cue ball matters to the outcome. What do you think prevents a Predator from duplicating the directional force of another cue?

pj
chgo

You can't be serious. If you load a ball up with left hit it with a Predator then do the same shot with say an old Schon with an ivory ferrule are they going to follow the same line? The whole basis of the Predator is so the cue deflects away from the cue ball instead of the cue ball deflecting away from the aiming line.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

If you load a ball up with left hit it with a Predator then do the same shot with say an old Schon with an ivory ferrule are they going to follow the same line?

Yes, because you’ll angle the cues slightly differently so they hit the cue ball with the same force in the same direction. The same way you make any side spin shot with different cues.

The whole basis of the Predator is so the cue deflects away from the cue ball instead of the cue ball deflecting away from the aiming line.

How do you think this prevents some shots?

pj
chgo

 

[magnetardo]

Yes, because you’ll angle the cues slightly differently so they hit the cue ball with the same force in the same direction. The same way you make any side spin shot with different cues.

How do you think this prevents some shots?

pj
chgo

If you can't figure that out, I can't help you.
I've got better things to deal with. Think what you want, how long ago did your game plateau?

 

[jrctherake]

The problem with using "center ball" is if you don't make the shot, or hit the part of the pocket desired you won't get the necessary feedback to make adjustments to calibrate your future shots.

This makes the player play a guessing game, which will break down when competing against a player that KNOWS why their shot reacted a certain way.

Giving handicaps to "center ball players," as a result of them being unaware of this knowledge is almost unfair. Just like playing golf, you won't see a professional trying to hit a full shot straight. They will move the ball off the straight line so they can align to one side of the green (or fairway) and force it into the center zone......if the ball curves too much it goes into the far side of the target area.

I would love to see all my opponents using center ball, they would (unknowingly) be at a disadvantage. If you're trapped at a level that you can't seem to improve I'd highly recommend learning how to use spin and deflection to help your shotmaking, not hurt yourself by using a "low deflection shaft".

The Game is the Teacher

You lost me at:

"not hurt yourself by using a "low deflection shaft""...

Using a low deflection shaft will not hurt anyone. Just like using a higher deflection shaft will not hurt anyone.

Regardless of the shaft's deflection rate, it's nothing more than an adjustment from time at the table.

I cannot believe someone like yourself would say such a thing. Maybe it was a typo...

 

[Patrick Johnson]

How do you think [lower squirt] prevents some shots?.

If you can't figure that out, I can't help you.

lol - I hear tap dancing.

pj
chgo

 

[MakeTheSix]

Describe one.

pj
chgo

A good example is a straight in shot, say a couple feet apart, and there’s another ball’s edge just a millimeter or two in the way 6 inches or so in front of the cue ball. With a maple shaft you can shoot straight at the object ball 1/2 tip off center to deflect by the ball and depending on how hard you hit it the cue ball will swerve back in line or throw the OB back in line.

 

[CJ Wiley]

CJ, in all due respect, how does this touch of inside system work in situations where you need to apply a touch of outside to get the cue ball to go where you need it to go for position on the next shot?

If you go back and read my descriptions, I always say there are two exceptions that require spin, that's when you have to change the angle off a cushion and when you need to swerve the cue ball like a semi masse......I would add one more, when the cueball is close to the object ball you may want to apply outside, to prevent it "gripping" the object ball and undercutting it. Remember, the Touch of Inside isn't English, it's more of a twist, like you are "holding" a bank shot.

When you have to use outside, just go down as if it's a TOI shot and pivot the tip to the outside as much as you need and SPIN the cueball. When you pivot, make sure you do it with your feet, not just your hand, it's Important for your head and eyes to move with the tip so your perception changes.....you'll see the angle of the shot change as you pivot, I show this in detail on my TIPS BANKING SECRETS, it's a pivot, and parallel shift system I learned from one of the best bankers of all time. (it was Tony Fargo, Roger Griffis and I paid him $700 to learn that system and within a month I won $32,000+ so it was well worth the investment)

You can use a touch of inside or a touch of outside, my point has always been to specialize in one or the other. Dennis Orcollo told me he uses a touch of outside on new cloth and big pockets, he uses a touch of inside on worn cloth and tight pockets. I agree, and I have no problem putting any kind of spin on the cueball, but, like the professional golfers, they always specialize in a "draw or fade" and pool champions use TOI or TOO.

My video shows this stuff in detail, it's difficult to teach and learn by reading, it's much easier to see it on a pool table. I explain it as well as I can, but the difference between reading what I teach and actually taking a personal lesson is significant. This is true in all sports and games.