Valley rules queston. Please help.

RDaniel13

RDaniel13

7 ball run master
Silver Member
An issue over a watched hit came up tonight during league play. I had a third party ref watch a hit i thought would be close during my game.

My opponent left himself only one shot on the table, his OB was almost hidden by my OB just off the lower side rail. He kicked off the rail, the CB contacted his ball and my ball at the same time, and he made his ball.

In valley rules, is a simultaneous hit a foul?

It the sub-heading legal shots, it states that you must contact your ball first (after balls are established), period. I know a simultaneous hit is legal in BCA... but not in Valley. Opinions welcome.
 
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RDaniel13 said:
An issue over a watched hit came up tonight during league play. In valley rules, is a simultaneous hit a foul? It the sub-heading legal shots, it states that you must contact your ball first (after balls are established), period. I know a simultaneous hit is legal in BCA... but not in Valley. Opinions welcome.
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Truly simultaneous would go to the shooter. Mostly because it's just too close to be called so why penalize them.
 
master9baller said:
Truly simultaneous would go to the shooter. Mostly because it's just too close to be called so why penalize them.
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Let me clarify... ref was called to watch the hit. What is the rulebook ruling on this? If I had a ref watching it?
 
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RDaniel13 said:
Let me clarify... ref was called to watch the hit. What is the rulebook ruling on this? If I had a ref watching it?
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If he thinks it was perfectly split then it goes to the shooter.

Once I called the TD to watch a hit the was going to be like this and he just looked at the table for about 10 seconds. My opponent and I said "well??" and he said good.

My advice when shooting these is to do it with some tempo. It just makes the call a bit harder and when in doubt it should always go to the shooter.
 
IMHO, if you do not contact your ball first, as stated in legal shots in Valley rules, it is a foul. I understand if you don't have a ref watch the shot, or if your opponent blasts the balls so the ref can't make a legitimate call.... but if you don't hit your ball first, isn't it a foul?
 
RDaniel13 said:
IMHO, if you do not contact your ball first, as stated in legal shots in Valley rules, it is a foul. I understand if you don't have a ref watch the shot, or if your opponent blasts the balls so the ref can't make a legitimate call.... but if you don't hit your ball first, isn't it a foul?
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Well yes if you didn't hit your ball first it isn't simultaneous is it. If it's literally a split then no call should be made.

If you explain the situation with the outcome we could follow this better...details.
 
First off, WHAT DID THE REF CALL? If you called him over to watch the hit, he must have made a call, one which imo cannot nor should not be argued by the shooter or his/her opponent. If the ref simply COULD NOT TELL because the hit was so close to simultaneous to make an accurate judgement, then the call has always gone to the shooter in any league/tournament I have ever played in. The ref in your case had the final say, Unless there was some kind of TV monitor to replay the hit back in slow motion, there's not much you can do, no matter what you thought of the hit.

And yes.....referee's don't always get it right. The human eye is not capable of deciphering quick-moving targets in degrees of 1/1,000 of an inch.

My advice to you would be to just let it go and hope for the call on the next one.

Maniac
 
There are very few actual split hits, most cases the cue ball will tell you whether or not it was a good hit even though it looked like a split hit. If you search Dr. Dave's website, there are several examples of close calls that can easily be determined which ball was hit 1st because of how the cue ball acts.

If it was a true split hit, I agree with the others that the call goes to the shooter. But it seems you do not agree w/the call that was made. :confused:

Dave
 
RDaniel13 said:
IMHO, if you do not contact your ball first, as stated in legal shots in Valley rules, it is a foul. I understand if you don't have a ref watch the shot, or if your opponent blasts the balls so the ref can't make a legitimate call.... but if you don't hit your ball first, isn't it a foul?
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If you had a ref watch the shot and his ruling was a simultaneous hit, I believe it is not a foul.

You question whether or not the CB hit his ball first. I ask you, did the CB hit his ball second? Well if the hit was truly simultaneous, then it did not hit his ball second. So if it didn't hit his ball second it must have hit it first....no foul.
 
Well first off with a ref watching in VNEA their call is final and cannot be disputed whether you get another team captain or some random joe or an official ref. Second like everybody said a split goes to the winner, but like dave (12squared) said there are very rarely real split shots and if there are balls frozen or close to frozen on the rail it can make that call even more difficult. Like someone else said I would just let it go, if this is the first time this has happened to you playing pool then your in for a rude awakening because it will happen a lot, and not just with this there will be double hit with your cue disputed rules, called pocket disputes, ranking disputes...people cant stop whining, some have a right to if they truely are getting F'ed over but some people just like to make big problems to get some attention, so just let it go.
 
RDaniel13 said:
An issue over a watched hit came up tonight during league play. I had a third party ref watch a hit i thought would be close during my game.

My opponent left himself only one shot on the table, his OB was almost hidden by my OB just off the lower side rail. He kicked off the rail, the CB contacted his ball and my ball at the same time, and he made his ball.

In valley rules, is a simultaneous hit a foul?

It the sub-heading legal shots, it states that you must contact your ball first (after balls are established), period. I know a simultaneous hit is legal in BCA... but not in Valley. Opinions welcome.
Click to expand...

perhaps your question has already been answered, but i think when the non-shooter calls the ref over, i mean just dont even watch (or at least have that mentality). i mean it doesn't matter what happens, just get a ref that you trust, forget the rest and go by what he calls.

also, i agree with the poster who noted there are probably a LOT fewer actual splits than there are thought to be.
 
RDaniel13 said:
An issue over a watched hit came up tonight during league play. I had a third party ref watch a hit i thought would be close during my game.

My opponent left himself only one shot on the table, his OB was almost hidden by my OB just off the lower side rail. He kicked off the rail, the CB contacted his ball and my ball at the same time, and he made his ball.

In valley rules, is a simultaneous hit a foul?

It the sub-heading legal shots, it states that you must contact your ball first (after balls are established), period. I know a simultaneous hit is legal in BCA... but not in Valley. Opinions welcome.
Click to expand...


Here, a simultaneous hit is considered a foul. The rules clearly state the object ball must be hit 1st. If there is doubt on the shot , a ref or witness is called. If it is not evident that the object was hit 1st, then it is a foul.They also say here, if you think you may hit both at the same time, make another shot if you do not want to risk the foul.
Smashing the heck out of the shot does not cut it. It becomes a foul as there is no proof the object was hit 1st.
Check your local rules before the comp starts , so you are clear on the ruling for the establishment/event
 
conetip said:
Smashing the heck out of the shot does not cut it. It becomes a foul as there is no proof the object was hit 1st.
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Many persons believe the burden of proof must be on the doubter in these cases. In other words, there isn't any proof the legal object ball WASN'T hit first.

This scenario/problem will plague the game of pool as long as it's played.

Maniac
 
To those wondering... This isn't my first rodeo.... I know the game....

Secondly, the call went to me, because their ball was not clearly contacted first... Their team argued about it a little bit. I am just inquiring because the guys on their team thought a simultaneous hit was a good hit.

I am wondering what the ruling is for future situations.

I understand that most hits aren't simultaneous.

But in the situation where my opponent argues that the hit is simultaneous, i vote foul.

I understand most refs will not have the balls to make a ruling on this. It will probably go to the shooter.
 
RDaniel13 said:
To those wondering... This isn't my first rodeo.... I know the game....

Secondly, the call went to me, because their ball was not clearly contacted first... Their team argued about it a little bit. I am just inquiring because the guys on their team thought a simultaneous hit was a good hit.

I am wondering what the ruling is for future situations.

I understand that most hits aren't simultaneous.

But in the situation where my opponent argues that the hit is simultaneous, i vote foul.

I understand most refs will not have the balls to make a ruling on this. It will probably go to the shooter.
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Okay Daniel, now I see where you are coming from here. My answer hereis that the ref felt that they didn't hit the object ball first. Of course the shooter may argue it was a split though. Did you ask the ref what he saw? If he saw a split then he should have gave it to the shooter.
 
conetip said:
Here, a simultaneous hit is considered a foul. The rules clearly state the object ball must be hit 1st. If there is doubt on the shot , a ref or witness is called. If it is not evident that the object was hit 1st, then it is a foul.They also say here, if you think you may hit both at the same time, make another shot if you do not want to risk the foul.
Smashing the heck out of the shot does not cut it. It becomes a foul as there is no proof the object was hit 1st.
Check your local rules before the comp starts , so you are clear on the ruling for the establishment/event
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Sir, I believe you were trying to link a direct rule when you used the word "here". Your link did not work. Could you try again or cut and paste the rule so we can all see where you are quoting from...those rules might just change most ideas in this thread about simulaineous hits.

I believe, and agree, most here abserve the simultaneous hit goes to the shooter, but Valley seems to disagree with that theory according to your quotes. Seeing is believing and we would all like to see the rule.

Thanks for your research...Ken

BTW, it is a real shame that every League/organization has to come up their own version of rules...just makes it very difficult for the players to keep it all straight. Someday...maybe...pool will be pool all over the world.
 
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