Valley Table Hops

Donny Wessels

Donny Wessels

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I have talked with a couple people over the phone in the last couple weeks complaining of newer Valley tables that the ball is hoping off the cushion. I haven't seen the table in person yet, just wondering if anyone else is noticing the same problem with Valley tables under 2 years old.
 
sdbilliards said:
I have talked with a couple people over the phone in the last couple weeks complaining of newer Valley tables that the ball is hoping off the cushion. I haven't seen the table in person yet, just wondering if anyone else is noticing the same problem with Valley tables under 2 years old.
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Oversize cue ball?
 
sdbilliards said:
Really the new valley's aren't made to except a oversized ball?
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Valley uses a 2 1/4" magnetic cue ball.
An oversized whitey (2 3/8") may be the reason for the ball hop.
 
if the rails are a little low the balls will jump when they rebound .

so is it all the balls or just the cue ball?
scott
 
rails

I have not seen the new tables, but the first thing i would check, is to see if the cloth was wrapped all the way around the rubber and not stapled on the bottom of the rail. This will cause the wrong rail rebound.
Ron
 
Low rail bumpers.

I work on newer Valleys quite offen. I have run into the problem you are asking about. My personal experience has been that most of the time it is caused by the rails being too close to the playing surface. This can be caused by something under the slate where it rests on the frame, which would raise the slate in relation to the rail bumpers. The other thing I have often found is that the new rails often stick up as much as 1/16 above the top rail when properly installed. This bothers some folks so they try to force them down. In doing so they lower the distance to the playing surface. Thus in either case the balls want to jump off the bumper, especially if struck firmly. Please let me know what you find. :)
 
tsp&b said:
I work on newer Valleys quite offen. I have run into the problem you are asking about. My personal experience has been that most of the time it is caused by the rails being too close to the playing surface. This can be caused by something under the slate where it rests on the frame, which would raise the slate in relation to the rail bumpers. The other thing I have often found is that the new rails often stick up as much as 1/16 above the top rail when properly installed. This bothers some folks so they try to force them down. In doing so they lower the distance to the playing surface. Thus in either case the balls want to jump off the bumper, especially if struck firmly. Please let me know what you find. :)
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so what your saying is that the factory sends them out with a gap between the rails and slate, and if the slate is shimmed up or the rails are pressed down againsts the slate, the cushion is too low. IMO this would be a problem with the stock rails.
 
LCCS said:
I have not seen the new tables, but the first thing i would check, is to see if the cloth was wrapped all the way around the rubber and not stapled on the bottom of the rail. This will cause the wrong rail rebound.
Ron
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This is what I'd look for first as well Donny;)

Glen
 
Some additional information!

sdbilliards said:
so what your saying is that the factory sends them out with a gap between the rails and slate, and if the slate is shimmed up or the rails are pressed down againsts the slate, the cushion is too low. IMO this would be a problem with the stock rails.
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Prehaps this will help explain what I was trying to say :smile: ... From the horses mouth: http://www.valley-dynamo.com/pdf/2008/June/Svc-Cushion Rails.pdf
 
The cushion profile chart doesnt really matter. The wood is profiled specifically for either U23, K55 or K66 and unless somebody put the wrong cushion on the rail the nose of the rubber will be in the same spot on all 3 profiles.
Once Valley was absorbed and moved to Texas the rails were changed from K55 to K66. All the newer Valley rails are made with K66 (Championship ProAm with a SHARP NOSE) which in my opinion is MUCH too critical on tables that get covered over and over and over. The glue buildup can raise the slate height as much as 3/16" before it gets too hard to install the rails and the glue is cleaned off. The other consideration is the drilling pattern of the rails themselves. The new style (made in Texas/Mexico) have the same side-to-side spacing of t-nuts on the END RAILS and a different side-to-side spacing on the SIDE RAILS. If you try to install new style SIDE RAILS on an old table you'll find the t-nuts are too far apart and conversely trying to install the old style rails (U23 or K55 cushion) on a newer table the t-nuts will be too close. At any rate, the t-nuts on the new style SIDE AND END rails are closer to the BOTTOM of the rail. So if you do manage to hog out the holes on the table and get them to fit you will still have a nose to table height issue. Physics tells us the optimum nose to slate distance is 62 1/2 percent of the ball diameter. i.e. 2.25" x 62.5% = 1.40625" or 1 13/32" from the nose of the cushion to the face of the finished slate. 1 7/16" is actually pretty sweet and with K55 cushion there is a lot more wiggle room since the nose is somewhat rounder and will rebound so much better than the 66. Another thing that hasnt been mentioned is the shipping shims that go around the edges of the slate. These little guys always flop over and get under the slate, lifting up the playing surface about an eighth of an inch.
Mr Penguin
visit us on the web at www.penguinamusement.com
 
tables

So, Mr. Penguin. What do you suggest? I read your post, but did not here a fix?
Ron
 
Buy our rails! Ha Ha I guess I'm saying to first of all check to make sure there are no shipping shims hiding under the slate and that the correct rails are on the table. Also look for any appreciable glue build-up on the back of the slate. Someone else mentioned that if the cloth was stapled to the bottom of the rail instead of the backside that the cushion nose would be tipped downward. AMEN to THAT! I think he's absolutely correct. If they have to stick up above the formica then so be it (beauty follows function). The whole point is that the nose of the cushion is too close to the slate and that with K66 rails you cannot just bolt 'em up and leave. You will have to nudge the rails up to 1 7/16" or so and explain to the customer that the rails just have to stick up above the table if that's the case and that they may have to be readjusted from time to time. Oh yeah, forgot to mention, we just got some rails in for new rubber (only covered once) and believe it or not the brown K66 was UPSIDE DOWN on the wood liner! We all got a chuckle.

Mr Penguin

visit us on the web at www.penguinamusement.com
 
I think Donny (OP) has a good list of things to look for.
Maybe we should allow him the opportunity to eyeball the table before passing judgement.
 
Mr Penguin said:
Buy our rails! Ha Ha I guess I'm saying to first of all check to make sure there are no shipping shims hiding under the slate and that the correct rails are on the table. Also look for any appreciable glue build-up on the back of the slate. Someone else mentioned that if the cloth was stapled to the bottom of the rail instead of the backside that the cushion nose would be tipped downward. AMEN to THAT! I think he's absolutely correct. If they have to stick up above the formica then so be it (beauty follows function). The whole point is that the nose of the cushion is too close to the slate and that with K66 rails you cannot just bolt 'em up and leave. You will have to nudge the rails up to 1 7/16" or so and explain to the customer that the rails just have to stick up above the table if that's the case and that they may have to be readjusted from time to time. Oh yeah, forgot to mention, we just got some rails in for new rubber (only covered once) and believe it or not the brown K66 was UPSIDE DOWN on the wood liner! We all got a chuckle.

Mr Penguin

visit us on the web at www.penguinamusement.com
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Hi Fred,
Nice to see you here. Thanks again for the help the other day. It was much appreciated. I highly recommend your company.
 
It's funny that I ran across this thread because most of the Valley's in this area have rail hop.

I have a theory that most people especially in bars will grasp or lean their hand onto that end rail when they squat down or bend over to grab balls out of the return hole. In turn they pull up/push down on the rail either ungluing a small section or just making it funky.

The only reason I mention this is because 95% of the Valley's I see with rail hop have it on the rack end of the table about a hands width from the pockets on each side.
 
If the cushion got pushed TOWARD the slate (not pulled up) you would get hop. Usually the player squats down and grabs the balls and when finished pulls himself back up by grabbing the cushion. If you ever get a call that ONE of the cushions came unglued....ask 'em if it's the end rail. They'll think you are Kreskin or something. I love hearing " HOW DID YOU KNOW THAT?"

Mr Penguin
visit us on the web at www.penguinamusement.com
 
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