VERY IMPORTANT NEWS - Red Circle OR Blue Circle ???

It is my experience that different cueballs do different things. That said I find that I can ususally "lock" into the conditions fairly quickly and then go from there. Maybe this is one of the reasons that I will never be a pro. Because I don't feel the nuances as much as better players I probably don't know when the equipment is throwing me off. I just try to adjust as best I can.

Johh
 
I like the blue better than the red especially playing 14-1. The red just doesn't penetrate the rack as well. It is a know fact the red is lighter than the blue but it's only 3 or 4 grams. You wouldn't think it makes much of a difference but it does.

I never weighed a set but I'd imagine the blue weighs the same as the other centenial balls. The red is probably closer or the same as the the Arimith. Running into a rack of heavier balls with the red it shows.

People like the ease or easier draw but follow is more difficult for them. Just get a stroke and play with matched sets. LOL Having said that I play with both but my preference goes to the blue for more than one reason.

Rod
 
Well, I guess I'm rather stupid. All ping pong balls are the same size. All footballs are the same size (kids sizes don't count). All baseballs are the same size (little league might be different, but I don't think so). All tennis balls are the same size.

You people mean to tell me that the only sport that it could possibly make a difference on, there is no standard? I've can't believe I've been playing pool this long and never questioned this. With a few exceptions, dirt cheap cardboard top tables and bar-room cue balls, I assumed that the distance between the table top and the edge of a rail and the size of pool balls was standard. I've seen tables that were what I assumed was 'not put together correctly' and the rails looked wrong. No GD wonder I sometimes have trouble making a bank on certain tables. I spend valuable time practicing shots that when I go somewhere else could be completely different. I'm specifically talking about banks. I don't think it should make that much difference (but some) in cut shots. But, if your going from size A ball and size Z rail height, to size B ball and size X rail height, I can see as much as a 2 inch difference in a simple cross corner bank.

What BS. There is simply no excuse for these companies not coming up with a standard. Hasn't the pool associations tried to do anything about this.

Now I'm even more impressed with the pros! They have to deal with this also and they make the shots.

Rail height = X
Object ball size = A, weight = B
Cue ball size = A, weight = C

period
 
Imo

I would rather the object balls weigh the same as the cueball and be the same size. I guess this is not the case with my super arimath pro's with a red triangle? I never noticed a difference but I never really tried to notice one either. Shooting a object ball into another object ball never even did enough to get my attention.

I agree, this sport needs exactly defined specs. The balls (cue and object) should all be the same size and weight. The rails should all be the same height. The pockets should all be cut the same size and angle and with the same slate depth (to a tight standard that demands accuracy). Table height also needs to be exactly the same, the height of the top of the slate off the floor, not the rails to the floor as they are different shapes.
 
OldHasBeen said:
FRED -
I am starting to think that if your playing w/ Super Aramith balls, you should be playing w/ a Red Circle - BUT - If your playing with Centennial Balls, (as most are) then you should be playing w/ a Blue Circle.
I KNOW & CAN TELL THE DIFFERENCE - IT ISN'T MINIMAL !
Click to expand...


First of all, you do know that if you're playing with Super Aramith balls that you have a Super Aramith CB that is also different from the the red circle, right? It also is a little heavier than the red circle, but not quite as heavy as the blue. You can't measure this in ounces, it has to be in grams. If my CB's are representative of most that are out there, the red circle weights 166 grams; the super aramith vascillates between 167-168; and the blue circle is 170. The size is all the same. The super aramith has a different white color than the red circle, it's more of a pure chalk white. There IS a difference in the way they react. I think something might be off with the smaller red circle ball that you have because normally they're all the same size. I have no idea why the density or weight varies other than paint for color & numbers. However, I can't see how that could possibly come up to 4 grams.
 
Per the BCA "Equipment" section of the "Rules" --
Pocket Billiard Balls
Weight: 5 1/2 to 6 oz.
Diameter: 2 1/4" (+/-.005").

To me, that certainly appears to be a "standard", however loose as it may be.

Troy

CaptainJR said:
What BS. There is simply no excuse for these companies not coming up with a standard. Hasn't the pool associations tried to do anything about this.

Now I'm even more impressed with the pros! They have to deal with this also and they make the shots.

Rail height = X
Object ball size = A, weight = B
Cue ball size = A, weight = C

period
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
The VERDICT Is Starting To Br Clear!

First, Let me compliment the responders on their knowledge & effort. I am thrilled that there is this website where intelligent, knowledgeable, and involved conversations can take place for the concerns and advancement of Pool.

There appears to be a consensus here that there is a difference. If the difference has a "cause & effect" on the playability of the game then there needs to be a standardization of Cue Balls to "Go Forward"!

Naturally the better players can & will be able to adapt to the difference better than the novice, semi-pro (or a struggling OldHasBeen). As long as they are aware of the difference, the pro will conform easier than the rest.
IS THIS RIGHT & OR FAIR? – And should ANYONE have to adjust – TO BE COMPETITIVE???

One of the positive aspects of this site is the fact that ALL skill levels of pool players can & do participate, so we can get feedback from one another.

I have never admired anyone who bitches about a problem without offering a viable solution but I am at a loss as to "WHAT CAN BE DONE" ???

My personal solution is to play with Centennial Balls, Using A Blue Circle Cue Ball!

IF THE CONCENSUS IS - THERE IS A DIFFERENCE = PROBLEM = STANDARDIZATION = SOLUTION.

WHO CAN OFFER A SUGGESTION AS TO WHAT CAN BE DONE NOW TO GET SOMETHING POSSITIVE DONE ABOUT THIS ???
ty
 
OldHasBeen said:
Naturally the better players can & will be able to adapt to the difference better than the novice, semi-pro (or a struggling OldHasBeen). As long as they are aware of the difference, the pro will conform easier than the rest.
IS THIS RIGHT & OR FAIR? – And should ANYONE have to adjust – TO BE COMPETITIVE???
Click to expand...


I think you ALWAYS have to adjust to be competitive, and it's always the best player that CAN and DOES adjust that wins or takes home the cash. You're always adjusting to something, the cloth, the rails, the pocket size, the humidity, the lights, the speed....So if we standardize every ball to be 170 grams, where do we go from there? The cloth, the rails, pocket size, etc., etc. Maybe even the cue, everybody plays with the exact same weight, balance, tip. It'll be a special "tournament" cue that's handed out to everyone at the start. It just gets too complicated...adjust, you old geezer.
And I can call you that because were both the same in many respects. :D :eek: :mad: :(
 
OldHasBeen said:
WHO CAN OFFER A SUGGESTION AS TO WHAT CAN BE DONE NOW TO GET SOMETHING POSSITIVE DONE ABOUT THIS ???
ty
Click to expand...

Buy your own cue ball and insist that all your games be played with your ball?

Realistically, I think that somebody in the BCA or at Aramith would have to decide on some kind of standardization but I'm not sure whether we would have to get a petition going or what.

The actaul rules of:
Weight: 5 1/2 to 6 oz.
Diameter: 2 1/4" (+/-.005").

are kinda interesting in that the size is specified to 0.0004% (0.01/2.25) and the weight is allowed to vary a little more than 9% (0.5/5.5). I wonder if that is a legacy from the days of ivory balls and the density variations between different tusks.
 
Troy said:
Per the BCA "Equipment" section of the "Rules" --
Pocket Billiard Balls
Weight: 5 1/2 to 6 oz.
Diameter: 2 1/4" (+/-.005").

To me, that certainly appears to be a "standard", however loose as it may be.

Troy
Click to expand...

The diameter certainly doesn't seem loose. That would be the big issue to me I would think. (+/_.005") is a pretty fine line. 5 and 1/2 to 6 oz. that would be the same as 5 and 3/4 oz. +/-.25 oz. Could be a half oz difference between one and the next. That would almost be a tenth smaller or larger. Might be a little to big a range for weight.

The few figures I've seen in this thread do fall into these parameters.
 
Reply to Mungtor & Drivemaker

Mungtor -
Your Solution Was - Buy your own cue ball and insist that all your games be played with your ball?

I stated In My Last Posting -
My personal solution is to play with Centennial Balls, Using A Blue Circle Cue Ball!

SAME PAGE!

DRIVEMAKER - "HEY, I RESEMBLE THAT REMARK"
You bring up some very good points - Where does standardization stop and personal choice begin? I AGREE - "BUT"!
I don't think the awareness of the difference in Cue Balls was "Out There" and now that it is, there seems to be a consensus that it is effecting the playability of the game.
There are 100's of tables, cues, cloths, chalks, accessories, Etc., Etc. to choose from - but which ones are most accepted & used?
The ones that the pros are paid to promote OR the ones that allow for the best possible play by all? A particular type of rack comes to mind but I don't want to go there for obvious reasons.
I am still eagerly awaiting Keith's response as to what the other pros think of this issue.
Drivemaker - You called me an "old geezer" - Would it be better if I were "A Young Geezer" AND if you have a better alternative than becoming an "Old Geezer" please tell me NOW - AND HURRY! My doctor told me yesterday that I had only 30 to live. I said "30" - 30 WHAT? - He says 30, 29, 28, 27.
TY & GL
 
OldHasBeen said:
DRIVEMAKER - "HEY, I RESEMBLE THAT REMARK"
You bring up some very good points - Where does standardization stop and personal choice begin? I AGREE - "BUT"!
I don't think the awareness of the difference in Cue Balls was "Out There" and now that it is, there seems to be a consensus that it is effecting the playability of the game.
There are 100's of tables, cues, cloths, chalks, accessories, Etc., Etc. to choose from - but which ones are most accepted & used?
The ones that the pros are paid to promote OR the ones that allow for the best possible play by all? A particular type of rack comes to mind but I don't want to go there for obvious reasons.
I am still eagerly awaiting Keith's response as to what the other pros think of this issue.
Drivemaker - You called me an "old geezer" - Would it be better if I were "A Young Geezer" AND if you have a better alternative than becoming an "Old Geezer" please tell me NOW - AND HURRY! My doctor told me yesterday that I had only 30 to live. I said "30" - 30 WHAT? - He says 30, 29, 28, 27.
TY & GL
Click to expand...


The point that I was trying to make is that even with the same table equipment, even THEY can play differently, an adjustment has to take place.
For instance most tournaments will use either Gold Crowns, Diamonds, or Olhausens. Even though they might all have Simonis 860 on them, they all play differently in the rubber, the way the pockets are cut, and the size of the pockets. So do we only use one table at all times? You're right about the rack issue, that can play a major role too. I don't think in tournaments that they mix CB to OB sets. If they're using Centennials, you'll get a Blue circle. And if they're using Super Pro Aramith's, you get either the Super Pro CB or red circle. Knowing what you know might actually give you an edge over somebody that doesn't, have you thought about that?

You can't be a "young geezer"...you can be a "young buck", but you can only be an "old geezer". I don't know what the alternative is other than making repeated trips to St. Augustine, FL. to find that damn fountain!
 
I sent an Email to Seluca, but have not heard back. I asked the question via email to Brunswick on their website and got the following response:

From: web_inquiry@brunblrds.com
Date: 2004/10/06 Wed PM 12:45:24 EDT
To: jcochr56@bellsouth.net
Subject: Brunswick Billiards

Brunswick Billiards Centennial pool balls are manufactured to meet or
exceed the tolerances as specified by The Billiards Congress of America
(shown below). We are unaware of any weight differences between pool balls
available from other manufacturers. The production of Centennial pool balls
is the same today as it has been for many years.


POOL BALL SPECIFICATIONS:
· Molded and finished in a perfect sphere in the following weight and
diameter:
· Pocket Billiard Balls
· Weight: 5 1/2 to 6 oz. *Diameter: 2 1/4"
· *Diameter tolerance of (plus or minus) .005"


*************************************************************
 
I've only recently done some research on this issue - including digging through the archives in a couple of forums and asking a few questions. Here's what I think I discovered (uncovered?) and I could be wrong:

Saluc (Aramith) does their best to match all their cue balls to the specific brand sets that they come with. Hence the blue circle cue ball is matched to the rest of the balls in the Centennial set. Saluc's objective is NOT to universally match ALL the cue balls that they make with EVERY brand set that they make. So, there may be a slight size difference or weight difference between a cue ball that was designed to be used with one brand set versus a cue ball that was designed to be used with another. Mismatching occurs when people take a cue ball that was designed to be used with one brand set and use it with another. Sometimes the consequences of mismatching are insignificant and sometimes they are not.

In addition according to Saluc they make all their cue balls from the same phenolic resin EXCEPT the infamous red circle cue ball which is made from 'carom material' (a phenolic resin recipe designed specifically for carom balls'. The red circle cue balls tend to be somewhat lighter and (possibly no one seems to know for sure) more resilient because of this difference in materials used during the manufacturing process. It has been speculated that the extra lively nature of the red circle cue ball is due to these differences in how they are made.

It's interesting to note here that because these discrepancies have not been highlighted or regulated the door has been left open for people to freely switch cue balls between sets. Meaning that to the best of my knowledge it's not currently a rule violation to bring your own Aramith red circle cue ball and use it in a game being played with Brunswick Centennials.

Does this add another dimension of unpredictability to the game? No doubt. Should it be stopped? That's an open question, but I tend to think it should. If we look at it in terms of a sport like baseball - In pro baseball the size and shape and condition of the playing field (pool tables) can vary from city to city (pool hall to pool hall) - but the balls they use to play with must be uniform across the board. Imagine what the sport would be like if before every game the pitchers could choose from a group of different sized and different weighted balls? I could be wrong but I think uniformity in the balls that are being used is critical in every pro sport. In pool perhaps the best that can be done is to match the cue ball to the ball set for which it was designed. That would do for starters.

After thought: My research into the 'red circle phenomenon' has shown me that all 'red circle cue balls' are not the same. There are manufacturers other than Saluc selling red circle cue balls to the public. Those red circles are certainly not identical to the ones made by Saluc. There are also 'red dot' cue balls some made by generic manufacturers and 'red logo' cue balls made by Saluc - many of which are apparently being marketed to appeal to some degree to the unwary crowd followers who have bought into the ongoing 'red circle cue ball is best' mystique.

Things are further complicated by the fact that the longer any ball set is in play the more wear and tear there is on the individual balls. In plain English this translates to uneven wear and a reduction in weight of the balls that are struck most frequently (think nine ball). Cue balls do lose weight over time so any thoughts that you can guarantee uniformity in ball sets simply by sticking to the same set must be adjusted to accommodate for those age and use related variations.

Some day a uniform standard for ball sets/cue balls may be written into the rule book. When and if that day comes, I personally think the sport might end up being the better for it.

Snake
 
One key factor that would prevent any tightening of the equipment regulations at present is money, for 2 reasons:

1) Most people in US Pool see the BCA as a regulatory body for the sport. However this is not the case, the BCA is a trade organization whose primary interest is in ensuring the success of the billiards-related businesses like table and ball manufacturers. This is the core reason the equipment regulations are so lax. After all if they required tight tolerances for ball manufacture it increases the cost for the manufacturer. Whilst there is a market for high-end precision matched sets, there is also a large market for the low end non-precision sets that are still BCA "legal".

2) With so little commercial sponsorship in the sport tournament organizers are often at the mercy of sponsors when it comes to equipment choices. Just look at ESPN and the WPBA. Over the years they have used Elephant Balls, Super Pros and Centennials (And probably others I've not seen) for televised matches. Not only that but the WPBA pros often have to change to an entirely different table type for the televised rounds than is used in the earlier rounds.

As for positive suggestions here are 3 I can think of:

1) Just get on with it - Accept that the tables, racks, balls and chalk all will vary within a range wider than most people would like. This has been the case for the entire history of billiards sports and I don't see why it is any worse than it has been in the past.

2) Lobby the BCA to tighten regulations - The easiest method would be to create a sub-set of equipment regulations which are designated as Tournament regulations. These could be much more strict and equipment manufacturers could use this as a marketing tool, labeling products conforming to these rules as "BCA Tournament certified" or similar. This would allow manufacturers to better differentiate their products, at present almost every cheap low-end product sticks "Pro" in it's name somewhere, to the extent that the term has become meaningless.
As stated above, as the BCA is a trade group, lobbying from actual players (Even Pros) may have little effect. However if the manufacturers could be persuaded there is market value in a certification scheme there could be a chance to implement it.

3) Scrap the concept of BCA regulation of cue sports altogether - I'm sure there's others here more qualified to talk about this than me, but the core problem is there is not recognized body that is purely a non-profit sports association. This is also a requirement for Olympic recognition for cue sports, so there are many other benefits such an organization could bring beyond equipment rules.
This would be a major change, and a big problem would be "name recognition". Everyone knows the BCA, even people totally outside the sport. Getting a new organization to have even 10% of that recognition would be very hard without major marketing. The other problem of course is how could such an organization be financed and maintain independance from the equipment manfuacturers?
 
OldHasBeen said:
If it does reflect on the playability of the game - then 1 is right & 1 is wrong -Period.

QUOTE]

There are too many other examples in sports that disagree with this "all or nothing" mentality. Consider that in our own sport, the manufacturing tolerances of just the balls is a range of 1/2 oz. Therefore, all balls within that tolerance is "right." The red circle is within the accepted range.

Our cues all are different weights, so that in of itself is as much a difference in how this game is played as any.

In golf, players are left to their own to use whatever ball they want, so long as it conforms to cetain tolerances and regulations. Golf courses use different grasses.

Baseball parks are all different sizes and shapes.

The ability to adjust to the conditions and equipment is what separates good players from bad, as well as separating great players from the not-so-great. Those who would want everything to be set just so and to their particular liking might be better off playing a different game. I'd suggest bowling, but would you believe they oil each lane differently, usee different materials and weight for balls and shockingly, the pins all weigh a different amount (although they are within a certain tolerance)?

Fred
Click to expand...
 
CaptainJR said:
Well, I guess I'm rather stupid. All ping pong balls are the same size. All footballs are the same size (kids sizes don't count). All baseballs are the same size (little league might be different, but I don't think so). All tennis balls are the same size.
Click to expand...
If this is your argument, then you've just proven the other side. All of these balls are not the same size. They aren't made the same, and they even change size by themselves.

The baseball is an obvious one. Changes in manufacturing will make a certain year's ball more lively than others. Surely you know this phenomenon? They've called it the "rabbit ball" in years past.

Air pressure itself will make a football completely different. So will air temperature. And I'm sure one manufacturer's football will feel better or worse to good player.s

Tennis balls are made specific to the conditions. That is, there are tennis balls tailored to clay, while others are tailored for hard courts. And, once again, air pressure is makes the balls play differently.

And ping pong balls? Well, the usually have a number of stars on them to show the quality. I'm sure someone more familiar with ping pong can expound on the differences between this ball and that ball.

Fred
 
CaptainJR said:
The diameter certainly doesn't seem loose. That would be the big issue to me I would think. (+/_.005") is a pretty fine line. 5 and 1/2 to 6 oz. that would be the same as 5 and 3/4 oz. +/-.25 oz.
Click to expand...
In the manufacturing world, the diameter tolerance is pretty big. Considering that they post polish the balls. Fortunately, Saluc does better than +/-.005. Unfortunately, just playing with the balls will reduce the diameter of the cueball and maybe the one-ball to the point of being out of tolerance.

The weight tolerance is extremely huge. It should be +/- a couple of grams, IMO.

Fred
 
Keith Says........

Hi, Tom. Appreciate your kind words. I've been following the thread with great interest.

Stevelomako kind of hit the nail on the head, in my opinion, in that most rooms -- and I emphasize "most" -- buy their equipment in bulk with the intention of providing a playing field for their everyday customers.

I've been to some rooms where there's a different cue ball on every table, red circle, red dot, red triangle, blue dot, blue circle, black dot, et cetera. In these instances, one must adjust their game from cue ball to cue ball to cue ball. It is the damnedest thing I've ever seen.

It's like I said before, I just wish they went back to the old blue circles which were prominently used in the early '80s. It seems like the balls haven't been the same since then.

As far as the other pros go, I think they prefer the red circle because this is what they've played with the most in recent times. I think the old-time campaigners, like myself, prefer the blue circle, and the ones that have the longer strokes probably like it, too. As you know, you have to have a stroke to get that blue circle on automatic pilot.
__________________
Earthquake


I think it must be clarified that I was not originally asking that ANY particular Cue Ball be used. Just that it be defined as to What Is The Best To Play Consistently With. I have always preached "THE 3 C's"! They are the 3 most important ingredients to playing "Top-Notch" pool. #1, Concentration #2, Confidence & #3, Consistency = THE THREE C's

I also couldn't care less what the poolroom owners want to buy for the general public to bang balls around on a Friday/Saturday night. If however they are trying to develop a serious pool playing clientele, then I would think it would behoove them to make the BEST equipment at least available for their use. Bangers turn into Players who turn into Pros.
TY & GL
 
I don't know if you guys realize this but, Saluc makes both sets of balls the Centennial and the super aramith pro's. They are nearly identical, since they are round no two sets are really the exact same but their + or - is such a minut amount that they exceed the BCA standards. If the red circle is smaller than whatever object balls you are playing with then it makes perfect sense that it will play noticeably different. Think about it, the smaller balls contact point will be below center on the object balls contact point which will make both balls react oddly. I play with either and there is a noticable difference but a few racks and I adjust fine. That is why we warm up! Humidity and temperature make just as much of a difference and there is no way to control that everwhere you play so all I can say is get used to different playing conditions and just play. NO EXCUSES!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top