Vintage Cues
- Thread starter Type79
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Believe you're one of the few that has the double wide off-white veneer, done by Joss. I have one too. I still don't know how they came up with that veneer, as it hasn't been done by anyone else, to my knowledge. They did that in the late 60s to possibly mid 70s, though probably cut it off more early 70s. Those were some fabulous veneers.
All the best,
WW
It's an odd veneer stack for sure.
That thick veneer on mine is definitely very yellow.
I haven't ever seen any discussion on that matter and really don't know anything about it except that I have one.
I never asked Janes or Stroud about that, though I have spoken to both about my cue. I also spoke to Mottey about my cue about 28 years ago in his shop where I showed it to him. He wanted to buy it.
Those veneers really pop. And when you look at the figure of the forearm maple that looks three feet deep it really is a great look. Combine that together and I think I did pretty well when I picked it up in 1985 for $35 with two shafts and a Fellini.
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I would say you did excellent. Although it looks yellow, that double wide veneer is what they called White in those days at Joss. The lacquer does yellow it a bit over time, but it was definitely off-white. If I get around to it, I'll try to get some pictures up also. It's really early Joss, and still to this day, I don't know how they came by it. Even in later days, they bought veneers from wood companies, that's no secret. This double wide "white" still has me wondering where they got it. Suspect the only one who still posts here is Bill Stroud. I'll have to get some pics up.
All the best,
WW
Since we are talking "vintage"...cues of the era that the OP posted...
Here is a 1970-ish Gandy HC-110 that needs a re-wrap. Finish is almost gone too. Polish or light refinish might be in order.
Ricco Cervantes cue.
Two original shafts with aluminim inserts.
Darn nice BRW with some figure.
Brass rings.
Here is a 1970-ish Gandy HC-110 that needs a re-wrap. Finish is almost gone too. Polish or light refinish might be in order.
Ricco Cervantes cue.
Two original shafts with aluminim inserts.
Darn nice BRW with some figure.
Brass rings.
I'll try to remember to get some close ups of the Gandy this weekend at the pool hall.
It is an HC-140. Dick Abbott examined the cue and identified it. I got it from him.
He knows a lot more than me so I am quite confident in what it is.
Up close it is very obvious the cue is an Ebony Titlist conversion. It has the piloted aluminum insert that National and Gandy used. And the weight bolt matched my other Gandy cues of that era (I have several).
For me it is a prize...one of the holy grails as you say.
It ain't the Mona Lisa, and it ain't a Gus or George, but it's a prize. :smile:
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Well, I forgot to get detailed pics of the joints and butt plates. But I will, including the ebony Titlist Gandy (yes, it is an Ebony Titlist). I want those detail pics for my records anyway.
I did take the "siblings" to play. To my great surprise the earlier one that I refer to as "National/Gandy" is a stunning player. The later one is good, but the earlier one is absolutely amazing. The earlier one has the same aluminum inserts and the same weight bolt as my other early Gandy cues.
Here are some pics of that one I grabbed while I was at the pool hall. The earlier one is the top cue in the Huebler 2x4 case.
Are those WICO veneers in the Nationals?
What year would you estimate those cues at? I have 2 Nationals myself that one has the Aluminum Inserts. Was trying to place the Year Range before Ricco and group moved and went South and such.
Thanks
mike:thumbup:
PS. You got to love those 1960s and 1970s COLORS---Mine have what look like 1970s colors/
What year would you estimate those cues at? I have 2 Nationals myself that one has the Aluminum Inserts. Was trying to place the Year Range before Ricco and group moved and went South and such.
Thanks
mike:thumbup:
PS. You got to love those 1960s and 1970s COLORS---Mine have what look like 1970s colors/
The top cue is mid to late sixties, the bottom cue is early to mid seventies. That's why I am not sure if the top cue is National or Gandy. Still trying to work it out. Either late National or early Gandy.
The later cue is made with Viking parts and I am dating it by the material and font in the window just like a Viking. I have been meaning to talk to Jayman about that as he can nail it down more accurately based on the material and font in the window because it is the same as Viking.
If you have National cues, I might be interested. If you have Gandy, I am definitely interested.
If you want to ID them, post pics in the forum and lets have at it.
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Great old school cues. I will get a picture up soon on the old Joss double wide white veneer., as promised.
All the best,
WW
A Few More
A few more of my special Palmers
l-r
1) Non-Catalog Custom built for Dan Gartner (Look him up here on AZ) Came with Dan's 13.75 shafts. This went through two sellers neither of whom knew of Dan Gartner.
2) First Catalog era "Model J" in original condition purchased from the original owner.
3) Non-Catalog Model 20 with 204 inlays
4) Pre-Catalog Model D. The earliest, or one of the earliest, Palmers I've ever seen with early rippled foil and Willie Hoppe and weight stamp still visible in forearm. Original condition and purchased from original owner. This acquisition took me over a year to complete.
A few more of my special Palmers
l-r
1) Non-Catalog Custom built for Dan Gartner (Look him up here on AZ) Came with Dan's 13.75 shafts. This went through two sellers neither of whom knew of Dan Gartner.
2) First Catalog era "Model J" in original condition purchased from the original owner.
3) Non-Catalog Model 20 with 204 inlays
4) Pre-Catalog Model D. The earliest, or one of the earliest, Palmers I've ever seen with early rippled foil and Willie Hoppe and weight stamp still visible in forearm. Original condition and purchased from original owner. This acquisition took me over a year to complete.
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Very cool pic. :thumbup:
Does number 4 have the early pin with the hole in the end? Or some other pin?
Any chance we can see that rippled foil up close?
Also, you say the Model J is a "first catalog" era cue, but the Model J is a second catalog model. Can you explain that for those of us trying to learn more about these cues? I assume since you got it from the original owner you likely know when it was purchased. But beyond that, what features show that it pre-dates the catalog?
Thanks. :thumbup:
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Number 4 has the pin with the dimple in the end. The foil on this cue is the same as that shown in the attached pic of another early Palmer which ironically was discussed at length here on AZ with everyone concluding was not a Palmer at all. But a Palmer it was and an extremely early one at that.
The cue I refer to as a Model J is a reverse splice cue made during the First Catalog. It's just an early reverse splice cue whose design later became a standard model.
Like many original owners, memories are sometimes sketchy and confusing. The original owner gave me several different dates when he bought the cue, all years apart and he also did not order it from Palmer. He bought it off the shelf at a pool hall.
The cue has all of the characteristics of a First Catalog cue: large window, short butt cap, early font on wide foil.
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I see the large window, and short cap, and agree that makes it a first catalog, even though it wasn't exactly shown in that catalog.
Also, this cue looks like it doesn't, and never had a bumper, which was also characteristic of the first catalog cues. Also, this cue looks like it has linen, rather than a dacron wrap. Although some second catalog cues may have come with linen, most had the dacron, and the catalog itself showed dacron wrap cues that resemble green strand linen. So I agree, this cue is really a first catalog era Palmer. And therefore, a pretty rare one.
Correct me if I'm wrong on anything.
All the best,
WW
The devil indeed. The devil is taking good photos, which I'm not the best. However, you can see the wide white veneer in the points, about twice as wide as the veneer in the gunsight veneer in the middle.
The outer black is a bit wider than usual too, but not as wide as the white veneer. I've seen this several times in early Joss cues, late 60s or maybe early 70s. This was lost by the mid 70s, as a wide white veneer was two veneers by then. So this was unique to that earlier era.
I don't know for sure whether Joss made their own veneers in the very early days, or bought from a commercial supplier. Or, if they bought some, but maybe made a very wide white one themselves. I think only Dan Janes and Bill Stroud know what they did for veneers in those days.
Just thought I'd show the ivory joint, which shows the implex ring. One of the ways to identify an early Joss.
All the best,
WW
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Very cool. And that's Stroud's early 10 pin.
That A joint ring is cool. Not many Joss cues with a ring at the A joint.
Those veneers look oddly familiar though....similar to something else I have seen.
I have no idea if they produced their own veneers at that time. Most cue makers did not and do not.
I heard of one early Joss made from a Szam blank provided by a customer. Can't swear by the veracity of that, just something I heard. Heard of 3 or 4 WICO too.
Thanks for the pics! :thumbup::thumbup:
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That A joint ring is cool. Not many Joss cues with a ring at the A joint.
Those veneers look oddly familiar though....similar to something else I have seen.
I have no idea if they produced their own veneers at that time. Most cue makers did not and do not.
I heard of one early Joss made from a Szam blank provided by a customer. Can't swear by the veracity of that, just something I heard. Heard of 3 or 4 WICO too.
Thanks for the pics! :thumbup::thumbup:
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Thanks Doc, I thought you'd enjoy those pictures. It seems like I've seen those veneers before too, but I can only remember a few early Joss cues with them for sure. Still not sure where they came from. Way later, I picked out veneers with Mike Cochran and Tim Scruggs, and the maker made way thinner veneers than these.
By the way, thought you'd enjoy looking at the buttsleeve. Everything white is the old Implex, no longer made. The bumper is KU. This was a classic Joss in those days, black and white sometimes rearranged to give a different look. Enjoy.
All the best,
WW
