vintage pool book recommendations

S

snookered_again

Well-known member
I'm just setting up a Brunswick Balke collender table from around 1908 so Im looking for books that are related and may show pictures and details. Brunswick has setup instructions for the table but they are intentionally blurred out and there is a form to ask for higher resolution pics but I never got any response at all back from them.

Id like to know what size the original balls were, and if the serial numbers may be traced to an actual date. since Im in the process of levelling the table maybe there is a good book with a bit more detail on setting up these vintage tables.

I did find a lot of free downloadable books in the internet archives just by searching for snooker, and one in particular shows my table or a similar one called the Sarratoga. Mine has pockets but none of the tables depicted in this book have pockets.
archive.org

Brunswick Billiards 1894 : Brunswick-Balke-Collender Co. : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Catalogue of Billiard and Pool Tables and Supplies Manufactured and Sold by The Brunswick-Balke-Collender Co., 1894.
archive.org

aside from Brunswick Balke Collander history , I'd like to read a suitable book that will help with the strategy and techniques of billiards and snooker in general so I'm wondering if any others have read books they found particularly helpful.
 
The BCA book red cover, I think was the 62 edition.
Mosconi/Crane etc were involved.
Basic diamond system and other diagrams?
Jewett would be able to help I'm sure..
 
snookered_again said:
I'm just setting up a Brunswick Balke collender table from around 1908 so Im looking for books that are related and may show pictures and details. Brunswick has setup instructions for the table but they are intentionally blurred out and there is a form to ask for higher resolution pics but I never got any response at all back from them.

Id like to know what size the original balls were, and if the serial numbers may be traced to an actual date. since Im in the process of levelling the table maybe there is a good book with a bit more detail on setting up these vintage tables.

I did find a lot of free downloadable books in the internet archives just by searching for snooker, and one in particular shows my table or a similar one called the Sarratoga. Mine has pockets but none of the tables depicted in this book have pockets.
archive.org

Brunswick Billiards 1894 : Brunswick-Balke-Collender Co. : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Catalogue of Billiard and Pool Tables and Supplies Manufactured and Sold by The Brunswick-Balke-Collender Co., 1894.
archive.org

aside from Brunswick Balke Collander history , I'd like to read a suitable book that will help with the strategy and techniques of billiards and snooker in general so I'm wondering if any others have read books they found particularly helpful.
Click to expand...
You never stated the kind of pockets your table has. Are they like modern pool pockets or modern snooker pockets?

The standard book from Brunswick around the time your table was made is "Modern Billiards" which was originally authored by Hugh W. Collender in 1881. From the 1891 edition, the author/editor is not listed and the Brunswick-Balke-Collender Co. is shown in place of the author. Editions happened every year or two until 1912. I have multiple extra copies if you are interested in an original.

If the blurring you refer to is in the pastperfectonline.com site, I think you can get around that. Do you have a link to the document/page you need?

There are several people in the US who specialize in restoring and selling tables like the one you have who likely have original documents.

There were two sizes of pocket balls used on the pool tables of that time. Championships were played with 2 5/16 inch balls. 2 1/4were standard for commercial and home play, just like today. If you have a snooker table, the size usually used on American tables was 2 1/8. Modern snooker is 2 1/16, more or less.

Carom balls were larger for the tables without pockets. Today the standard is 61.5 mm.

As for books to read for how to play, it depends on which game you are interested in. In the US, "billiards" can refer to all cue sports or just the pocketless version of carom billiards. It almost never refers to what the people in England call billiards. For the English game, the standard old book is also called "Modern Billiards" but was written by John Roberts, Jr.
 
my table has pocket irons and net baskets made of leather that look to be replaced with close to original. the net pockets do not have the feature where you can draw the balls out from beneath the pocket, like I have seen on some other older tables. you have to reach into the leather net, no ball returns either. there is a tag saying it has monarch cushions, I don't know if the tag is original, likely a replacement. the shape of the cushions near the pockets is what I would consider for snooker, probably not easy to pocket corner balls unless they are accurate. I'm guessing at the date being around 1908 but that could be off. it looks very much like the one in the 1894 catalogue that I linked to above but it does not have any egg and dart moldings. the rails do have covers that hide the special bolts that lock the slate to the rails and require a special pin wrench. many of the tables of this era did not cover these bolts, but used embellised heads that showed.

since I also collect antique radios I do see a lot of ornamentation from around this time that appears carved but is actually repwood which is basically hide glue and sawdust packed into molds and then glued in place Perhaps it saw some damp conditions and the repwood fell off or was removed due to some of it being missing. I believe the repwood fanciness can be remanufactured using press molds and epoxy and wood dust combined, that may be an option if someone lets me lift a plasticene imprint of an existing table , maybe a project for the future.

that catalog I liked to had a neat ball rack where the balls would all drop into a basket. I have a 70's ball and cue rack but it would be neat to find a Brunswick balk collender one, and the scoreboard, these are things I can look for to try to complete the setup.
It also mentions ivory balls.. I do have a set of balls that I think predate the Aramith ones, likely any modern player wants modern balls for the better bounce but it would be interesting to know more about the older ones.


I have a picture that I found somewhere of a table made by Kansas city Billiard table mfg Co. it has the same legs and frame structure style and I think what happened was that Brunswick Balke colander bought them out and maybe used the equipment and or factory to produce this line. It has 4 robust square legs and a lot of the earlier ones had a variety of quite ornate legs.

the table was available as Carom (no pockets) or "pool" with pockets. mine has pockets. it says it's 1600 lbs, I believe. that's what the original sales brochure says but how they define "pool" is grey to me. I found it quite interesting to learn that the table was made at the time when both were available, it seemed to mark an era of change to pocket billiards of some sort.

Im having trouble differentiating some of the terms, english billiards, carom billiards, pocket billiards, some refer to snooker as billiards. some just say carom. and then stuff about balk lines being applied.. I think as I learn these terms may become more familiar, what is the definition of each or maybe some of these terms and definitions evolved with time.

that link I posted above notes that the Saratoga table was designed for clubs, maybe the lack of ornamentation supports that. or it was just the style of the time going from highly carved styling to a more robust and simple design. I have a couch that seems to have a similar style that was from the empress hotel in victoria BC that was built by the railway in 1908 that I plan to recover, neat that it kind of matches the style. It says in that catalog ( link above) that there were iron corners that you could install to eliminate the pockets so I believe they were made to allow the older pocketless version of carom billiards to be played, , although I don't have them. i know repros of similar "pocket blockers" are available.

i have only two of the brackets that hold the longer cues. I assume there may have 4 cue support racks one on each side. I have some spare brass hoop brackets from some other old table . If I want to drill holes in the side frames, they will fit, I was thinking of trying to braise them to a bracket that will fit the existing holes where they appear to have been mounted.. perhaps it has long and shorter bridges or cues. the table is about 100 inches, so perhaps only one bridge is needed whereas on a 12 foot they tend to have a long and short bridge and the long bridge has an accompanying long cue.

the frame may be maple? it is veneered both sides with walnut, unfortunately someone sprayed it with some sort of primer hiding the veneer and did a thick coat of brown toned shellac. I can remove the poor finish but stopped myself, It will be a huge job to repair the veneer, I stripped a bit just to see and the veneer was coming detached so maybe the coverup was to avoid extensive veneer replacement.
I'm capable of that but it looks like a very long project. My aim is to set it up and use it for now.

the rails look to be rosewood and they have a nice finish and seem recently recovered the numbers on the slate frames match the table and the slates have a few slight edge chips but seem flat and true and no major damage.

I'm still a bit unsure of the ball size, or weather it predates the popularity of snooker. I'm interested in using it for snooker but I dont know everything about all this. I've been playing pocket carom billiards a bit with others and it helps me to learn better cue ball control and allows more practice at carom shots.

I'd like to learn more about how the style of cushions and rails changed over time and perhaps that would better answer the questions about what games it was really intended for.

near to me is a rec center that mainly caters to retirees and they ave 4 national 10 foot snooker tables so I've popped in to play with them a few times but they are usually there playing when I'm working. I regularly play on an older ( english made 1930's) 6 x 12 with a regular group and mostly we play snooker on it. that table has extremely difficult corner pockets. I think they alll like the challenge but perhaps the balls they are using are too large as they will bounce off the cloth if you shoot hard. one difference I have noted from playing on that table as opposed to the rec center is the elders at the rec center seem to shoot a lot softer in general and playing a lot more complex shots involving a number of rails. I think if I try to copy and shoot as hard I loose control of things and make more mistakes but that's just relating to my own learning.. Maybe younger guys just tend to wanto shoot harder on average than elders.

i suppose I can just fire balls at the rails when I get it set up and maybe how they react will determine the correct size balls for the rails.

my current table is a little 6 foot brunswick and I modified the rails and pocket size to make it more fun, better bounce it has 1 7/8 balls which are weirdly small but it's been fun and good practice. I'm looking forward to moving up to something a bit more realistic. I think this table will play more like the larger 6x 12 ones. Its the biggest I can fit and as it is I have about 4'6 on the sides so I'm going to need to use reduced length cues. Perhaps to tbe righ the tip size and ball size should relate. I have an 8 ball cue thats about 13mm I think our snooker cues are 10 or 11 mm tips.

I have a 4x8 slate brunswick snooker table from about 1970 that i was thinking of setting up but this thing is just so much nicer and well made. the trade off is needing short cues.. I do have the original balls for that table.. we have been using 3/4 snooker cues with no butt on the little table so I intend to come up with some cues that are about 6 inches shorter than the full length to make it best I can in the imperfect situation.
 
Thank You BBB yes that book seems like a good place to start, I was able to download the PDF, Ill also check the local library to see if they have it in print.
 
Bob Jewett said:
If the blurring you refer to is in the pastperfectonline.com site, I think you can get around that. Do you have a link to the document/page you need?
Click to expand...
yes that's right. I initially thought it was a Brunswick site but it's not. In there there are some original documents outlining the setup of this table or ones similar. I was trying my best to make it out but its a bit too blurred to read.

 
snookered_again said:
yes that's right. I initially thought it was a Brunswick site but it's not. In there there are some original documents outlining the setup of this table or ones similar. I was trying my best to make it out but its a bit too blurred to read.

Click to expand...
I use Chrome as my browser. Other browsers may have different interfaces....

I viewed this page in their system. On the image of the page I did a right-click and one of the options was "open image in new tab". The image alone appeared in the new tab. It was a little small, so I pressed Control-plus to make the image larger. I then grabbed part of the screen in Windows with the standard Windows tool and inserted the grabbed image below.

1692733049135.png
 
yes I think you are right there. I found if I save the file and use"Ctrl scollyball up ) that will enlarge it enough to make it legible. , still a bit blurry but like that of the above.
the levelling I know how to do because I need to precision level other machines and do have a precision level, I just thought it might be beneficial to read the parts that were written by the same manufacturer.
I was wondering what to use for shims, I had some formica but thought it too slippery, I know playing cards are often used. I considered cutting thin wood wedges that I can insert between the frame and the slate. Im thinking that if I oppose two thin wedges I can close up any gap so if the table were stood upon it would bare the weight down upon the frame.

Ill plan to get it level and then take up any gap with shims because it's not only the level but trying to get full contact or at least full contact in most places. of course you cna level the slate and still have it sitting on three small spots so ill hope to get more full contact before I tighten it down and recheck.

I found I had some vinyl flooring , that was about the same thickness as formica but less slippery, it should work to get closer, and beyond that maybe I can lift the slate slightly with a jack and insert playing cards where I can get them without affecting the level. I found a few business cards in there upon disassembly but I dont think they went too crazy with the levelling procedure. about a foot of one of the frames was missing due to rot so Im rebuilding what is too punky butmost is ok,, its basically a 1" shim anyway. the structure is in the supporting members.

I took a piece in to some woodworking experts, they figured the slate support frames were poplar. Im using old fine grained fir as old as the table, it wont change dimension. I didn't want to use maple for that because I know it tends to find it's own direction when cut down, due to internal stresses it normalizes.. but with old fir it wont warp , its already moved where it wants. Mahogany might take the staples better but It will be ok.

a couple of 2 foot sections Ill change the edge so it can have a better staple area, it will never be seen once assembled, I just dont wanto be trying to staple into punky wood so I'm chiseling out what I need to and will replace with about 1x 1x 2 foot strips on a couple of the edges. I'm being careful not to epoxy to the slate, I'll use a bit to bond wood to wood, where needed...

near to each pocket there is some wood that is specially shaped to fit the slate and cause a tapered surface down into the pocket, some of that was a bit missing so Ill fill what needed with wood dust and epoxy. those parts would be difficul tto reproduce. I can prevent epoxy from attaching with thin plastic, epoxy doesn't stick to plastic so it works as a barrier where no bond is wanted. I considered re constructing the frames but I think it won't affect anythign it will take a lot of time and its kind of like over restoration.




the frame seems to droop slightly towards the ends so Ill level the middle slate and any droop will be taken up with shims, that will be easier than trying to lift the middle to match the ends. I think a slight bend was intentional in the design. Better than it being saucer shaped.

i thas a long bolt tying the ends together, I experimented wit hthe tension looking for movement but this thing is just a heavy rock solid thing, I tried clampint the edges with pipe clamps to see if I coud draw the corners tighter, no way , it is where it is and it does not move. some of the blocking near the legs was glued with hide glue, in case it is ever coming all apart for restoration I just used a few screws.

when we first tried moving it we found the framw was so heavy we didn thtink we could lift it, my helpers were ready to walk away, they were all trying to remove the blocking to separate parts of the frame. I stpped them and said guys I dont think this frame was ever intended to come apart .. evidently some were made to disassemble but not this one. I knew I can break any hyde glue nd cut dowels but someone had also driven in a handful of spike nails, probably drilled holes first.. but nails made it not want to come apart. as it worked out it was best not to disassemble more than necessary, it made moving the frame a real difficult task. by not taking all the blocking apart it retained its original orientation.



at the last moment I humped the frame up on my shoulder and 4 of us were able to walk it it out from a basement like that.

My theory is that in 1908 gravity wasn't as strong as it is today ;-) I can just imagine it being moved about by cart and buggy. It overloaded my 1/2 ton ford van.. I expected the slate to be heavy but the frame was the real issue.
 
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