VNEA Referee Ruling needed

RDaniel13

RDaniel13

7 ball run master
Silver Member
Had this happen to a team in league play. Was wondering what the outcome would be at a State or Vegas Tournament.

Player A breaks, makes 3 stripes and 1 solid. With the table still being open, he calls the 5 in the side. Makes the called ball, but on the same stroke, the cue ball pockets the 8 in the corner.

What is the score of this game?
 
This question has come up before and there has was a lot of banter back and forth. Some of you won't believe it, but the score is 10-0 because the groups are not established yet. The losing player cannot lay claim to the solids nor the stripes because he lost on an illegal shot. Groups cannot be established on an illegal shot.

There are those that will say "Yeah, but he would have normally received 2 points because 2 solids were down." Yes, in a NORMAL game. But this isn't a normal game.

I play pool with the recently retired VNEA National Head Referee, Bill Beyer. Bill says 10-0. So, unless someone out there has the title of Current VNEA National Head Referee and says otherwise, the score is 10-0.
 
That is what myself and a lot of others thought. But had 2 supposed Vegas refs say that it was a 10-0 loss because Player A didn't establish his balls, because he made the 8 in the same stroke, resulting in a loss of game.
 
jschelin99 said:
This question has come up before and there has was a lot of banter back and forth. Some of you won't believe it, but the score is 10-0 because the groups are not established yet. The losing player cannot lay claim to the solids nor the stripes because he lost on an illegal shot. Groups cannot be established on an illegal shot.

There are those that will say "Yeah, but he would have normally received 2 points because 2 solids were down." Yes, in a NORMAL game. But this isn't a normal game.

I play pool with the recently retired VNEA National Head Referee, Bill Beyer. Bill says 10-0. So, unless someone out there has the title of Current VNEA National Head Referee and says otherwise, the score is 10-0.
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I just like seeing things in black and white. Like in a rulebook. The only rule in the book that i thought would apply to this situation is "Legal shot" and "Loss of Game". Resulting in a 10-2 win.

If this ruling is in fact true, i think an example or addendum needs put in the the next VNEA rule book.

I would like to see ball in hand anywhere after a scratch on the break added also.
 
RDaniel13 said:
I just like seeing things in black and white. Like in a rulebook. The only rule in the book that i thought would apply to this situation is "Legal shot" and "Loss of Game". Resulting in a 10-2 win.

If this ruling is in fact true, i think an example or addendum needs put in the the next VNEA rule book.

I would like to see ball in hand anywhere after a scratch on the break added also.
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I far prefer the BCA rule book. True, it has way more rules to remember, but it therefore has more situations covered in black and white. IMO, the VNEA and WPA rule books are far too thin and therefore leave far too many situations up for interpretation and confusion.

As far as ball in hand anywhere on the table after the break shot: It seems great... until you scratch on the break. When BCA came out with that rule, even the Wisconsin BCA Assoc decided not to use it at their state tourneys because it was too big. Opinions on b-i-h on the break differ.
 
jschelin99 said:
I far prefer the BCA rule book. True, it has way more rules to remember, but it therefore has more situations covered in black and white. IMO, the VNEA and WPA rule books are far too thin and therefore leave far too many situations up for interpretation and confusion.

As far as ball in hand anywhere on the table after the break shot: It seems great... until you scratch on the break. When BCA came out with that rule, even the Wisconsin BCA Assoc decided not to use it at their state tourneys because it was too big. Opinions on b-i-h on the break differ.
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I agree. BCA rule book is way more detailed.
After i found out refs were calling the above mentioned game a 10-0 win, i asked what would happen if:

Player A breaks, makes 7 solids on the break, goes to shoot the 8, makes it, and scratches? Would that also be a 10-0 loss for him?

BCA states that if Player A breaks and makes 7 of one suit on the break, they can shoot the 8 for the game win. There are a lot of applicable examples in their rule book.

I personally LOVE the ball in hand after the break rule. How many times are there a few balls tied up and ball in hand after a scratch on the break would allow a run out much easier?
 
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10-0

During the VNEA International tournament, as jschelin99 mentioned, the game is scored 10-0 due to the fact it takes a legal shot to establish solids or stripes.
 
billiards102 said:
During the VNEA International tournament, as jschelin99 mentioned, the game is scored 10-0 due to the fact it takes a legal shot to establish solids or stripes.
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But "Legal shot" in the rule book is defined as any shot not resulting in a foul. Early 8 is not a foul, it is simply loss of game. This is why this specific ruling needs rule book clarification.
 
RDaniel13 said:
I agree. BCA rule book is way more detailed.
After i found out refs were calling the above mentioned game a 10-0 win, i asked what would happen if:

Player A breaks, makes 7 solids on the break, goes to shoot the 8, makes it, and scratches? Would that also be a 10-0 loss for him?

BCA states that if Player A breaks and makes 7 of one suit on the break, they can shoot the 8 for the game win. There are a lot of applicable examples in their rule book.

I personally LOVE the ball in hand after the break rule. How many times are there a few balls tied up and ball in hand after a scratch on the break would allow a run out much easier?
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why do people want rules that make the game easier?

open break makes it easy enough.... i personally like the challenge of the game with closed break and behind the line on a scratch. it feels like you have accomplished something when you have a run out with those rules.
 
RDaniel13 said:
But "Legal shot" in the rule book is defined as any shot not resulting in a foul. Early 8 is not a foul, it is simply loss of game. This is why this specific ruling needs rule book clarification.
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after the break no suit was established. the 1st shot of the game resulted in loss of game

why should you be allowed any points where the shot made resulted in loss of game.?

i can see if the 5 had been pocketed and the next shot after resulted in pocketing the 8 and then points being awarded for all balls down..

and yes bcapl rules cover this situation, points are awarded to both opponents for all balls down after game over.....no matter how points were made.
 
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10 - 0

If he had have scratched the q ball instead of the 8, the table would still be open.

Nothing was established at the time the 8 scratched.
 
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