VNEA Rule? Ball knocked into pocket by hand accidently

C

Clarky

Registered
HI, Does anyone know the vnea rule for a ball knocked into the pocket by hand accidently during play? It is clear in VNEA rules this is a foul, but what is not clear anywhere is if the pocketed ball is replaced as closely as possible or left down in the table?

This happened at league and I tried to explain it should be replaced as if it is a ball of the group of the fouling player that can not be easily accessed due to blocker balls that ball should be replaced as it is possible the illegal accidental pocketing of this ball could be an advantage later in the game for the fouling player if the player with ball in hand due to the foul does not get out at this point. The other players at league all just said its a foul (we all agreed on this) but nobody felt it should be replaced.

To be clear, the ball pocketed by mistake in this case was of the group that the ball in hand player was shooting but even so, I believe that ball should be replaced as it could be used as a ball for position later or an insurance ball at some point in the rack which again places the player with ball in hand with less options as they prepare to run the rack out or not.

Anyone have a clear answer to this and/or a reference to a more detailed explanation for the VNEA rule on this?

Thanks.
 
Looks like it's covered here. #8.

Rules - VNEA Pool Leagues

www.vnea.com www.vnea.com



8. ACCIDENTALLY moving or touching any ball is not a foul unless: 1) the moved ball is the cue ball or 2) a moved ball makes contact with the cue ball or 3) a moved ball that is jumped off the table or pocketed or causes any ball to be jumped off the table or pocketed. (exception to #3: If the 8-ball is jumped off the table or pocketed it is loss of game if called by the opponent before the next shot is taken). Only opponent may replace the ball moved as closely as possible or leave it where it rests. If the shooter replaces the moved ball, it will be considered a foul.
 
I play in a VNEA league but am not a ref. That said, according to my reading of section H 8 - http://www.vnea.com/8-ball-rules.aspx - (assuming 8-ball) it would not be a foul to accidentally knock a ball into a pocket.

Per that section of the rules accidentally touching an object ball is not a foul unless it meets the specified criteria, and the criteria does not include knocking a ball into a pocket.

The way we would play that in our local league would be that the ball would be retrieved and spotted as close to its original position as possible, by the opponent. Play would then resume, without loss of turn.

Where did you get your info that accidentally touching an OB was considered a foul in VNEA? That is true for many tournaments and other leagues that use the "all balls foul" rule.
 
Protractor said:
I play in a VNEA league but am not a ref. That said, according to my reading of section H 8 - http://www.vnea.com/8-ball-rules.aspx - (assuming 8-ball) it would not be a foul to accidentally knock a ball into a pocket.

Per that section of the rules accidentally touching an object ball is not a foul unless it meets the specified criteria, and the criteria does not include knocking a ball into a pocket.

The way we would play that in our local league would be that the ball would be retrieved and spotted as close to its original position as possible, by the opponent. Play would then resume, without loss of turn.

Where did you get your info that accidentally touching an OB was considered a foul in VNEA? That is true for many tournaments and other leagues that use the "all balls foul" rule.
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In the rules it states the opponent must replace the ball (APA is the same way but we usually just let it fly) and if the shooter replaces the ball it is then a foul. Kind of goofy and as mentioned, that's how APA does it. By having the opponent replace the ball it prevents the shooter from "accidently" moving an OB in or out of the way of another shot. That's my best guess.
 
Per the rule below.

It is definitely a foul as a moved ball that is pocketed is a foul. VNEA doesn't deem a moved ball a foul but if it goes in the pocket, it is a foul. That is not the issue I am questioning. The issue I am asking about is whether or not that ball needs to come back up and be replaced. I just can't find anyone or anywhere that can address this. It is clear to me that there are easy to explain situations where there is a distinct advantage/disadvantage (depending on who shoots next and whose ball it was) to not replacing this ball.

Like I said above:

It could have been a tough ball to access for the person fouling so they get an advantage.
It could have been a ball that would be needed for position and/or insurance after a break-out for the incoming shooter.

It seems very clear to me that this ball needs to be replaced but nobody could see my point so nobody agreed with me about replacing it.

Even after talking to a vnea ref they didn't fully understand the situation and couldn't give me an answer.

Anyone else want to chime in on this?
 
8. ACCIDENTALLY moving or touching any ball is not a foul unless: 1) the moved ball is the cue ball or 2) a moved ball makes contact with the cue ball or 3) a moved ball that is jumped off the table or pocketed or causes any ball to be jumped off the table or pocketed. (exception to #3: If the 8-ball is jumped off the table or pocketed it is loss of game if called by the opponent before the next shot is taken). Only opponent may replace the ball moved as closely as possible or leave it where it rests. If the shooter replaces the moved ball, it will be considered a foul.
 
Clarky said:
8. ACCIDENTALLY moving or touching any ball is not a foul unless: 1) the moved ball is the cue ball or 2) a moved ball makes contact with the cue ball or 3) a moved ball that is jumped off the table or pocketed or causes any ball to be jumped off the table or pocketed. (exception to #3: If the 8-ball is jumped off the table or pocketed it is loss of game if called by the opponent before the next shot is taken). Only opponent may replace the ball moved as closely as possible or leave it where it rests. If the shooter replaces the moved ball, it will be considered a foul.
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You are correct, it is a foul (I missed that earlier, my apologies) however, the exception is in parenthesis and ONLY describes the 8B. The second to last sentence indicates what I was saying before - that the ball is returned to the table. If the 8B is jumped off the table or pocketed it is a loss of game so how/why would it be replaced?
 
Chili Palmer said:
You are correct, it is a foul (I missed that earlier, my apologies) however, the exception is in parenthesis and ONLY describes the 8B. The second to last sentence indicates what I was saying before - that the ball is returned to the table. If the 8B is jumped off the table or pocketed it is a loss of game so how/why would it be replaced?
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Disregard, that indicates a ball moved is returned but does not mention a ball pocketed.
 
Clarky said:
It is definitely a foul as a moved ball that is pocketed is a foul. VNEA doesn't deem a moved ball a foul but if it goes in the pocket, it is a foul.
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Ok, after re-reading section 8, I agree that it would be a foul. The way that is written could be improved. Thanks for the education.

Clarky said:
That is not the issue I am questioning. The issue I am asking about is whether or not that ball needs to come back up and be replaced. I just can't find anyone or anywhere that can address this. It is clear to me that there are easy to explain situations where there is a distinct advantage/disadvantage (depending on who shoots next and whose ball it was) to not replacing this ball.

Like I said above:

It could have been a tough ball to access for the person fouling so they get an advantage.
It could have been a ball that would be needed for position and/or insurance after a break-out for the incoming shooter.
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That is why the rules specify that the ball must be replaced only by the opponent.

Clarky said:
It seems very clear to me that this ball needs to be replaced but nobody could see my point so nobody agreed with me about replacing it.
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I agree with you that it should have been replaced but getting amateur players to agree on how to interpret incomplete or ambiguous rules in absence of a ref is not easy and may not be possible in some cases. I keep a pocket copy of the 8/9 ball rules and general definitions in my stick bag for such discussions.

In our situations similar to yours (based on referee calls in VNEA matches) spotting the ball was covered under section E.4, below. Yes, it is a stretch, but the ref has typically cited the interference portion of that rule. Sometimes a ref has to go with what is fair and try to find justification in the rules as written.

"4. In the event the cue ball or an object ball stops on the edge of the pocket then falls into the pocket because of vibrations, fan or stamping of feet, it shall be replaced on the edge of the pocket as near as possible to its position before interference."

Clarky said:
Even after talking to a vnea ref they didn't fully understand the situation and couldn't give me an answer.
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Yeah, don't get me started about the VNEA. It is an amateur league that limits us to 7 foot bar tables, doesn't seem willing to allow template racks and their rules leave a lot to be desired in terms of clarity. The VNEA refs I know are amateurs as well and they sometimes disagree about how to rule on outlier situations.

We have a couple members of the local league that have gone through the VNEA ref training classes so we typically defer to them if they are present but I have gotten in similar disagreements with them because some are going from memory or not correctly reading the rules. In absence of having one of them on hand we talk it out with the other team until the captains come to some sort of agreement.

When we go to the state VNEA tournament refs are on duty so play is stopped and one is flagged down to render a decision based on what information can be provided by the players, or to observe a risky shot as there are not enough refs for 120+ tables. But at least it gets a third pair of impartial eyes.
 
D) Game:

...Any balls pocketed on a foul remain pocketed, regardless of whether they belong to the shooter or the opponent.
 
jimmyco said:
D) Game:

...Any balls pocketed on a foul remain pocketed, regardless of whether they belong to the shooter or the opponent.
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That rule is specifically referring to game play, where there are stroked shots taking place. Not random acts not involved in regular play.

Above statement is from a vnea ref. (he says, foul, ball in hand for opponent, ball replaced as close as possible to original position)
 
An aside:

Funniest moment we’ve ever had in our league. A bosomy lass bent over to take a shot and inadvertently knocked a ball down the table with her boob. One of the fellows at the table then made a remark that he wish he was that ball.

We all had a good nature laugh (including her) and the ball was replaced on its original spot. No foul was called and she took her shot as if nothing had happened.
 
Clarky said:
That rule is specifically referring to game play, where there are stroked shots taking place. Not random acts not involved in regular play.

"...for a ball knocked into the pocket by hand accidently during play."
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Which is it? During play as you stated in the OP, or not during play as you are stating now?
 
jimmyco said:
Which is it? During play as you stated in the OP, or not during play as you are stating now?
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The ball was inadvertantly knocked in when player was leaving the table. My statement "during play" wasn't great now as I re-read that OP but it was between shots during the play of a game. Nobody was in an active motion of shooting a shot. Sorry about that.

Basically the ref I have messaged told me that this is for sure a foul but since the ball was moved by something entirely different from a pool shot it needs replaced since it went in the pocket. Otherwise he said it would be no foul if it hadn't dropped and the incoming players choice to replace or not. He seems pretty confident.
 
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I would certainly hope that the ball would be replaced. If not what would stop anyone from "inadvertently" pocketing a ball with their hand when needing only one ball to win a match? Shooting a ball in while fouling is a whole different animal.
 
Clarky said:
That rule is specifically referring to game play, where there are stroked shots taking place. Not random acts not involved in regular play.

Above statement is from a vnea ref. (he says, foul, ball in hand for opponent, ball replaced as close as possible to original position)
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So the ball in the original question will be replaced? If not, what about if a player deliberately knocked a ball in as an act of sabotage. Is the respective advantage taken into account?
 
Fore Rail said:
I would certainly hope that the ball would be replaced. If not what would stop anyone from "inadvertently" pocketing a ball with their hand when needing only one ball to win a match? Shooting a ball in while fouling is a whole different animal.
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Great point.
 
Clarky said:
Basically the ref I have messaged told me that this is for sure a foul but since the ball was moved by something entirely different from a pool shot it needs replaced since it went in the pocket. Otherwise he said it would be no foul if it hadn't dropped and the incoming players choice to replace or not. He seems pretty confident.
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That conforms with my understanding of how the refs are trained, based on my conversations with them. Although I have not been through the training they have told me about a number of situations they are taught to judge using some basic guidelines.
 
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